[closed] Major Changes to posting in this forum

[Edial]

So, Ed, the new owner is interested in making judgments regarding the hearts of the unorthodox Christians? I ask because this is a whole new way of structuring the board that we have never utilized in the past. In the past, while the unorthodox were relegated to Unorthodox Theology, their claimed relationship with Christ was never questioned. One could refer to themselves as Christian if they believed that they had a relationship with Christ. Now, the staff is saying that they can't call themselves Christian based on their theology rather than their heart condition. Isn't that a basic tenant of Christianity? That Christ doesn't save based on theology? After all, didn't Christ save us while we were yet sinners? It seems to me that the staff/owner is going someplace they shouldn't be going.

I'm wondering if forced icon changes are not far behind.

Dawn! Good seeing you.

It is the Advisors' decision that owner approved.

The following verse plainly states that belief in Christ's identity as He claims it, is imperative.

JN 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

And below that Christ aligned himself with the I AM of the OT - "before Abraham was, I AM"

Entire Christendom is considering people who do not accept the deity of Christ as non-Christians.

We did not just come up with it. You know that.

In Soviet Union where I was born everyone (almost everyone) was an atheist. Yet everyone believed in Jesus Christ.
But it did not make them Christians because they readily rejected the deity of Christ.

We cannot continue encouraging people to believe the LDS or JW theology by saying it is Christian.

We are NOT judging people as individuals. Really.

However, we are judging very strongly the theology of LDS and JW as cultist and non-Christian. This doctrine was shaped by the very false prophets the Bible is warning us about.

We cannot encourage people to go in that direction.

Please forgive me for the hurt feelings, but this decision is final and unanimous.

About forced icon changes.

We can do that. However, wearing improper icon would simply become a rule violation. If person chooses to continue wearing a Christian icon while posting and professing other faiths, s/he would be called and if necessary banned to MSC so we could discuss this.

 

[Edial]

Yeah... Just like I said...
If you believe The Son has a body spirit and mind, then The Father must share that same body, spirit and mind, otherwise you have separated their essence and substance..
It's just like you said.... We need to go by what you, and many other modern Trinity Christian leaders have plainy stated.

I should have clarified (I thought it was understood), Christian belief is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the same essence in the context of divinity.
We are not of that essence.

 

[A New Dawn]

Dawn! Good seeing you.

It is the Advisors' decision that owner approved.

The following verse plainly states that belief in Christ's identity as He claims it, is imperative.

JN 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

And below that Christ aligned himself with the I AM of the OT - "before Abraham was, I AM"

Entire Christendom is considering people who do not accept the deity of Christ as non-Christians.

We did not just come up with it. You know that.

In Soviet Union where I was born everyone (almost everyone) was an atheist. Yet everyone believed in Jesus Christ.
But it did not make them Christians because they readily rejected the deity of Christ.

We cannot continue encouraging people to believe the LDS or JW theology by saying it is Christian.

We are NOT judging people as individuals. Really.

However, we are judging very strongly the theology of LDS and JW as cultist and non-Christian. This doctrine was shaped by the very false prophets the Bible is warning us about.

We cannot encourage people to go in that direction.

Please forgive me for the hurt feelings, but this decision is final and unanimous.

About forced icon changes.

We can do that. However, wearing improper icon would simply become a rule violation. If person chooses to continue wearing a Christian icon while posting and professing other faiths, s/he would be called and if necessary banned to MSC so we could discuss this.

I disagree. You are not judging the theology of the LDS and JW, you are judging their hearts. Judging their theology places them in Unorthodox Theology. Judging their hearts moves them outside of a Christian forum (which UDD is/was) and places them in World Religions, a forum for non-Christians. And you called them "non-Christians" in your OP. THAT is a judgement about their heart. You placed yourself in God's position.

I guess you were relieved when I left staff, leaving you free to push this agenda. Aren't you glad you won?

 

[Edial]

I disagree. You are not judging the theology of the LDS and JW, you are judging their hearts. Judging their theology places them in Unorthodox Theology. Judging their hearts moves them outside of a Christian forum (which UDD is/was) and places them in World Religions, a forum for non-Christians. And you called them "non-Christians" in your OP. THAT is a judgement about their heart. You placed yourself in God's position.

I guess you were relieved when I left staff, leaving you free to push this agenda. Aren't you glad you won?

Please believe me I never felt there were winners or losers when you left.
I like you very, very much.

We are judging the LDS theology. Icons have to do with theology that people freely choose. You know that.
People choose putting themselves under a certain theology once they wear an icon.
If Bible is of any value, of any authority in what it says - the leaders of LDS and JW are as false as the false prophets it describes.

What else can I say?

 

[skylark1]

It is the Advisors' decision that owner approved.

The following verse plainly states that belief in Christ's identity as He claims it, is imperative.

JN 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

And below that Christ aligned himself with the I AM of the OT - "before Abraham was, I AM"

This wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to offer my opinion. I have interacted with Mormons in this forum long enough to understand that Mormons do teach that Jesus created this universe, and that he was Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Entire Christendom is considering people who do not accept the deity of Christ as non-Christians.

We did not just come up with it. You know that.

In Soviet Union where I was born everyone (almost everyone) was an atheist. Yet everyone believed in Jesus Christ.
But it did not make them Christians because they readily rejected the deity of Christ.

We cannot continue encouraging people to believe the LDS or JW theology by saying it is Christian.

We are NOT judging people as individuals. Really.

However, we are judging very strongly the theology of LDS and JW as cultist and non-Christian. This doctrine was shaped by the very false prophets the Bible is warning us about.

We cannot encourage people to go in that direction.

Please forgive me for the hurt feelings, but this decision is final and unanimous.

About forced icon changes.

We can do that. However, wearing improper icon would simply become a rule violation. If person chooses to continue wearing a Christian icon while posting and professing other faiths, s/he would be called and if necessary banned to MSC so we could discuss this.

If a person considers himself/herself a Christian, and it is a rule violation for them to identify as one, then I think that people are being judged as individuals.



There are Christians who have heterodox beliefs.

From several different dictionaries:

heterodox
not in accordance with established or accepted doctrines or opinions, especially in theology; unorthodox.

Not in agreement with accepted beliefs, especially in church doctrine or dogma.

1. (Theology) at variance with established, orthodox, or accepted doctrines or beliefs​

 

[Edial]

This wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to offer my opinion. I have interacted with Mormons in this forum long enough to understand that Mormons do teach that Jesus created this universe, and that he was Jehovah of the Old Testament.

I was going to respond to you, so let me do it here.

LDS does not believe in God who was of the same essence in the eternity past.

Joseph Smith's quotaion ...
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea... He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. Joseph Smith - Mormonism founder

If a person considers himself/herself a Christian, and it is a rule violation for them to identify as one, then I think that people are being judged as individuals.

We have 2 sets of icons, Christian and non-Christian.
If someone picks a Christian icon yet teaches non-Christian views in Christian areas, it is a rule violation.

There are Christians who have heterodox beliefs.

From several different dictionaries:

heterodox
not in accordance with established or accepted doctrines or opinions, especially in theology; unorthodox.

Not in agreement with accepted beliefs, especially in church doctrine or dogma.

1. (Theology) at variance with established, orthodox, or accepted doctrines or beliefs​

We have Nicene Christians and non-Nicene Christians.
One needs to believe in the deity of Christ as defined to belong to these groups. Non-Nicene Christians have some differing view from Nicenes, like annihilationists believe everyone will be annihilated, and so forth.

But if someone believes, like JW do, that Jesus himself is a created god with a small "g" or like LDS do that God 'became' God and used to be just like you and I ... no, this is definitely not Christian.

 

[Rescued One]

If all unorthodox are Christians why discuss their unbiblical teachings? Not all who attend church on Saturday or Sunday are Christians.

If the Holy Spirit teaches truth, does He teach false doctrines to some and truth to others?

Should we all be humanists and say phooey on the Bible?

 

[A New Dawn]

Please believe me I never felt there were winners or losers when you left.
I like you very, very much.

We are judging the LDS theology. Icons have to do with theology that people freely choose. You know that.
People choose putting themselves under a certain theology once they wear an icon.
If Bible is of any value, of any authority in what it says - the leaders of LDS and JW are as false as the false prophets it describes.

What else can I say?

WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US!

All I can say, Ed, is that I am glad I came to CF while UTD was still considered a Christian forum, because it was here that I came to understand why what I believed was wrong. I was not converted here, I was already Christ's when I came, even though I was unorthodox. I was already Christ's even though I was trapped in an unorthodox theology. It took being surrounded by true believers to understand what was wrong about what I believed. And you are trying to take that hope away from these people.

I fought tooth and nail, while I was on staff, to keep this forum a place where others who might have been in the same situation I was in (I know I am not unique in this, that Christ has saved others who are trapped and need to understand) might have a place to come and understand, also. I am so glad I am no longer on staff. I would never want to be associated with people whose hearts are so hard that they can't possibly understand and see the marvelous work God does in bringing his purpose to light in people who couldn't see before.

 

[skylark1]

If all unorthodox are Christians why discuss their unbiblical teachings? Not all who attend church on Saturday or Sunday are Christians.

If the Holy Spirit teaches truth, does He teach false doctrines to some and truth to others?

Should we all be humanists and say phooey on the Bible?

Phoebe Ann,

No one here has suggested that we should all be humanists or that we should all say phooey on the Bible.

I think that one objection is in telling people who self identify as a Christian that they may not do so. Think about it.

Another objection is in telling a group of people who hold beliefs that are heterodox, yet claim that Jesus is their Savior and Redeemer, that they are not Christian. I don't think that anyone has objected to discussing doctrines that are unbiblical. It is the judging of people's hearts that Dawn and I have objected to. (Or that is what I believe Dawn's objection is.)

 

[Edial]

WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US!

All I can say, Ed, is that I am glad I came to CF while UTD was still considered a Christian forum, because it was here that I came to understand why what I believed was wrong. I was not converted here, I was already Christ's when I came, even though I was unorthodox. I was already Christ's even though I was trapped in an unorthodox theology. It took being surrounded by true believers to understand what was wrong about what I believed. And you are trying to take that hope away from these people.

I fought tooth and nail, while I was on staff, to keep this forum a place where others who might have been in the same situation I was in (I know I am not unique in this, that Christ has saved others who are trapped and need to understand) might have a place to come and understand, also. I am so glad I am no longer on staff. I would never want to be associated with people whose hearts are so hard that they can't possibly understand and see the marvelous work God does in bringing his purpose to light in people who couldn't see before.

But Dawn it is impossible for you not to understand that these prophets who lead LDS are false prophets.
Please tell me you understand that.

And Christ can save people who are not Christian.

Christ was drawing you at that time and you felt the pull. Steve came and he guided you home.

CF should not be condemned for calling LDS and JW non-Christian religions.

 

[A New Dawn]

But Dawn it is impossible for you not to understand that these prophets who lead LDS are false prophets.
Please tell me you understand that.

I understand that LDS teaching and JW teachings conflict with the Nicene Creed. I understand that the leaders of those churches are not true prophets, but none of the people posting on this board are the leaders of those churches.

And Christ can save people who are not Christian.

Christ was drawing you at that time and you felt the pull. Steve came and he guided you home.

CF should not be condemned for calling LDS and JW non-Christian religions.

You are not just calling the religions non-Christian, you are calling the people non-Christian. You are judging them when you have no idea what is in their heart. People who claim to have a relationship with Christ.

But this is on your head. I know I am right with my savior in acknowledging that only He can judge their hearts. If they are Christian, and you have deemed them not Christian, you will be the one to stand before God at the last day and defend that action.

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe Ann,

No one here has suggested that we should all be humanists or that we should all say phooey on the Bible.

I think that one objection is in telling people who self identify as a Christian that they may not do so. Think about it.

Another objection is in telling a group of people who hold beliefs that are heterodox, yet claim that Jesus is their Savior and Redeemer, that they are not Christian. I don't think that anyone has objected to discussing doctrines that are unbiblical. It is the judging of people's hearts that Dawn and I have objected to. (Or that is what I believe Dawn's objection is.)

I believe A New Dawn believed in the Trinity when she came here. She can correct me if I'm wrong.

Both Mormons and JWS teach that Jesus is a god, not the only God.

We are not making a determnation as to who will finally be in heaven, we are explaining the requirements just as unorthodox groups do. Does it matter which God a person worships?

If such an important truth doesn't matter, why do we need the Holy Spirit to teach us?

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[Edial]

Phoebe Ann,

No one here has suggested that we should all be humanists or that we should all say phooey on the Bible.

I think that one objection is in telling people who self identify as a Christian that they may not do so. Think about it.

Another objection is in telling a group of people who hold beliefs that are heterodox, yet claim that Jesus is their Savior and Redeemer, that they are not Christian. I don't think that anyone has objected to discussing doctrines that are unbiblical. It is the judging of people's hearts that Dawn and I have objected to. (Or that is what I believe Dawn's objection is.)

Not judging of the hearts but of the icons that have LDS and JW on them.
When people wear them they freely associate with LDS or JW.
CF considers these prophets false prophets in a full Biblical sense.

When people promote views on God that are not Christian - such people are not identified as Christian at CF. Are we judging people? No, because we have areas that are reserved for Christians Only.
It was always like this.

We have areas that are for Baptists only.
If a Lutheran comes in, calls himself a Baptist yet promotes literal Communion, what do you think is going to happen to him?
He would be asked to MSC and asked if he really is a Baptist because only Baptists may post there.
He would be shown whatever statement of faith Baptists have and clarify if he believes it.

So what changed from before?

Because we were so concerned about peoples feelings we lost track of reality and realized we are confusing new believers and disturbing other believers by calling LDS and JW as Christians and by doing so giving credibility to their theology.

What they teach is as false as the Bible says what false is.

What is it you want us to do?
If we cannot call their theology false what can we call false?
And if we call it false how can we call it Christian?

Again, please forgive the hurt feelings this is causing, but that's how it is.

 

[A New Dawn]

I believe A New Dawn believed in the Trinity when she came here. She can correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I was a modalist based on what the Book of Mormon taught. A weird Trinitarian kind of modalism.

 

[Edial]

I came from an atheist background.
When I receive Christ I definitely felt the pull and the presence of God.
However, my secret was (and I never told anyone then) - I could not understand how that bloodied man on the cross could be God.
In time I came to believe that Christ was God.

God pulled me and then taught me.

 

[Rescued One]

I can only say that if a Mormon uses a cross icon instead of the angel Moroni and then teaches his version of Mormonism, it probably confuses many Christians who read their posts.

 

[skylark1]

I believe A New Dawn believed in the Trinity when she came here. She can correct me if I'm wrong.

I am fairly certain that she did not, but she can speak for herself.

Both Mormons and JWS teach that Jesus is a god, not the only God.

Yes, I know what they believe after all participating in this forum all of this time. They also believe that he is part of the Godhead along with the Father and the Holy Ghost. They have a different belief of how they are related.

We are not making a determnation as to who will finally be in heaven, we are explaining the requirements just as unorthodox groups do.

Who is "we," Phoebe? It's good that you do not believe that you are determining who is going to heaven, but I didn't think that you were or that you had the power to do so.

Does it matter which God a person worships?

Neither Dawn or I have claimed that it doesn't matter who we worship.

If such an important truth doesn't matter, why do we need the Holy Spirit to teach us?

Again no one has said that it doesn't matter.

What has been mentioned is judging people's hearts. People who claim Christ as their Savior and as their Lord.

Romans 10

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”​

I have no problem with discussing theology, and what does and does not line up with biblical teachings.

 

[Edial]

...
You are not just calling the religions non-Christian, you are calling the people non-Christian. You are judging them when you have no idea what is in their heart. People who claim to have a relationship with Christ.

But this is on your head. I know I am right with my savior in acknowledging that only He can judge their hearts. If they are Christian, and you have deemed them not Christian, you will be the one to stand before God at the last day and defend that action.

But Dawn you are talking like you do not know how CF works.

We have Christians Only areas that you also personally contributed to be setup.
Could the one with a Buddhist icon claiming to believe in Christ post there?
No, because although a Buddhist believes in Christ as a fully historical Christ of the Bible, he also believes in the incorrect identity of Christ.

By allowing Buddhists call themselves Christians we approve of a Buddhist theology. You do understand that.
Here is a link to Buddhist Christians.
Can You Be A Buddhist Christian? | Applied Buddhism

Dawn, we were wrong before by allowing JW and LDS be called Christian.

And nothing is on my head, Dawn.

And if I would be standing before God and explaining CF, you would be right there with me explaining why you consider belief in Christ consciousness a non-Christian religion.

Ed

 

[Edial]

Closing for the night.

 

[Edial]

Reopened.