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Circumcision

Why must we be circumcised?

  • To be saved.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • To keep the law.

    Votes: 14 100.0%

  • Total voters
    14

Marumorose

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The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)
What would Jesus do?
Leviticus 12: 1-3 says "The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised

Luke 2:21 says "On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived."
Matthew 23:1-3 says "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you"
Jesus Christ was circumcised eight days after he was born. I believe that what is good for Jesus Christ is good for everyone.
May God Bless You
 
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Minister Monardo

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Yes, there are two sides. Flesh vs. Spirit.
Genesis 17:13. He that is born into your house and he that is purchased must be circumcised and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The apostle Paul was tasked by the Holy Spirit to set this issue in order for the church, and it is addressed extensively in his letters. The key to a right understanding is in the verse included: my covenant shall be in your flesh. The Law of Moses included commandments pertaining to circumcision, while also acknowledging there was a spiritual component to a full understanding of the covenant law.

Yeshua used this as a point to illustrate the greater spiritual truth in understanding the Word of God.
John 7:22-24. Moses gave unto you circumcision, not because it is of Moses but of the fathers, and you on the Sabbath day circumcise a male. If circumcision is performed on the Sabbath day that the Law of Moses should not be broken, why be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath? Judge not according to appearance but judge righteous judgment.

The need to ultimately be circumcised in the heart is addressed in the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 10:16. Circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiff necked.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your children to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul that you may live.

With this in mind we will skip Paul’s in depth arguments and go directly to his conclusions.
1 Corinthians 7:19. Circumcision nor uncircumcision is not what matters, but obedience to God.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working by love.
Philippians 3:3. For we are the circumcision which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh.
 
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Minister Monardo

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There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.
Yes, there are two sides. Flesh vs. Spirit.
Genesis 17:13. He that is born into your house and he that is purchased must be circumcised and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The apostle Paul was tasked by the Holy Spirit to set this issue in order for the church, and it is addressed extensively in his letters. The key to a right understanding is in the verse included: my covenant shall be in your flesh. The Law of Moses included commandments pertaining to circumcision, while also acknowledging there was a spiritual component to a full understanding of the covenant law.

Yeshua used this as a point to illustrate the greater spiritual truth in understanding the Word of God.
John 7:22-24. Moses gave unto you circumcision, not because it is of Moses but of the fathers, and you on the Sabbath day circumcise a male. If circumcision is performed on the Sabbath day that the Law of Moses should not be broken, why be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath? Judge not according to appearance but judge righteous judgment.

The need to ultimately be circumcised in the heart is addressed in the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 10:16. Circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiff necked.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your children to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul that you may live.

With this in mind we will skip Paul’s in depth arguments and go directly to his conclusions.
1 Corinthians 7:19. Circumcision nor uncircumcision is not what matters, but obedience to God.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working by love.
Philippians 3:3. For we are the circumcision which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh.
 
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Scott Husted

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The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Your focus really does determine your reality.

In what measurement you view something in is what is measured back to you.

There is a reason in relationship to the law why Abraham was circumcised when he was ... and what for us this depicts of the process happening in us, and it has everything to do with the fulfilling of the spirit of the law.
 
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Jan001

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I try not to get wrapped up in that. Yahshua called the blood descendants of Abraham, the sons of Satan; yet those who are not of his blood can share in his inheritance.

When Moses left Egypt, many Egyptians came with him, and entered covenant at Sinai. They became Israel by entering covenant.

YHWH doesn't show partiality. he gives everyone the same opportunity for faith-obedience as Abraham.

So why do you insist that Christians become Israelites? Abraham was not an Israelite, therefore Christians do not need to become Israelites in order to be saved by faith.

What must a person do to inherit eternal life?

Jesus tells us plainly:


Mark 10:17-19
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

As you can see, Jesus does not command any person to become circumcised in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus does not command any person to observe the sabbaths and feasts of the Jews in order to inherit eternal life.
 
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Jan001

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Timothy was a ger toshav at the time. He had not yet become a full member of Israel. Timothy took the next step in his walk with Yahshua.

You are assuming this. There is no Scripture that I know of which supports your assumption.

This is a what Scripture does state:


Romans 3:30
since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

Romans 4:11
He (Abraham) received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them,

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.

Colossians 3:11
Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scyth′ian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all.
 
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Jan001

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Yes, I know.

How is a transference of the law concerning the High Priesthood, relevant to our discussion?


Israelites in the OT were required to become circumcised in order to be a member of the people. The Levite priesthood was a necessary priesthood for the OT Israelites according to Moses' Law.

Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Numbers 8:19
And I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and his sons from among the people of Israel, to do the service for the people of Israel at the tent of meeting, and to make atonement for the people of Israel, that there may be no plague among the people of Israel in case the people of Israel should come near the sanctuary.”

Jesus is the high priest for His own new covenant. Therefore the OT law (first covenant) is no longer valid. It is obsolete. None of the dietary or ceremonial laws of the OT are required for Christians.

Acts 15:23-30
with the following letter: “The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili′cia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us in assembly to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

30 So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.




 
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Jan001

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What would Jesus do?
Leviticus 12: 1-3 says "The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised

Luke 2:21 says "On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived."
Matthew 23:1-3 says "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you"
Jesus Christ was circumcised eight days after he was born. I believe that what is good for Jesus Christ is good for everyone.
May God Bless You

Jesus was under the requirements of the OT Law of Moses until His death. Therefore His new covenant was not put in force until His death.

Jesus' death on the cross makes the circumcision law obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 
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Adamina

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Marumorose said:
What would Jesus do?
Jesus was under the requirements of the OT Law of Moses until His death. Therefore His new covenant was not put in force until His death.
Jesus' death on the cross makes the circumcision law obsolete.
Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Good quote from Hebrews.

For Jews that want to be under the law of Moses instead of the law of Christ, then they and their newborn sons must be circumcised.
Didn't Paul and the Apostles keep the law of Moses until their deaths?

Was the whole Law really made obsolete/consummated after the cross, 40yrs later in 70ad or both? OC Judaism as an obsolete religion w/o a Temple/Sanctuary, imho, tho I still love the Jewish people and respect their religion, as I try to do with all releigions.

These covenantle verses in Luke 5 mirror Hebrews 8:13

Luke 5:37
"And no one is casting young<3501> wine into Old<3820> skins, if yet no surely shall be ruined the young wine of the skins, and it shall be being poured out and its skin shall be perishing.
38 but young wine into New<2537> skins is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 And no one drinking Old immediately is willing young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'". [Matthew 9:17 Mark 2:22]

According to the author of Hebrews, the final consummation was still future, but very close:

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying `New<2537>,' He hath made Old<3822> the first. The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance

A lot of us view the destruction of the OC Temple/Priesthood in 70ad as the final consummation of for the NC. So no more Temple services and ordinances.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
========================================
Not sure if this has been brought up, but I found this article interesting. It doesn't give a date.

Brit Shalom Information


Brit Shalom is a naming ceremony for Jewish families opting out of circumcision.

It is not intended for boys who have previously been circumcised in a hospital. Brit Shalom can be similar to the naming ceremony traditionally used for baby girls, sometimes called Brit Bat (daughter). Other names for Brit Shalom include Brit Ben (son), Brit Rechitzah (covenant with foot-washing), Alternative Brit (or Bris) Naming Ceremony, Brit HaLev (covenant of the heart), Brit B'li Milah (covenant without cutting) and Brit Chayim (covenant of life).

The ceremony may be performed by a Rabbi, Cantor, or experienced lay leader. Families may also create or adapt their own ceremony from existing samples or templates.


This page is maintained by Mark D. Reiss, MD
======================================

upload_2020-4-27_15-32-26.jpeg
 
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HARK!

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Good quote from Hebrews.

For Jews that want to be under the law of Moses instead of the law of Christ, then they and their newborn sons must be circumcised.
Didn't Paul and the Apostles keep the law of Moses until their deaths?

Was the whole Law really made obsolete/consummated after the cross, 40yrs later in 70ad or both? OC Judaism as an obsolete religion w/o a Temple/Sanctuary, imho, tho I still love the Jewish people and respect their religion, as I try to do with all releigions.

These covenantle verses in Luke 5 mirror Hebrews 8:13

Luke 5:37
"And no one is casting young<3501> wine into Old<3820> skins, if yet no surely shall be ruined the young wine of the skins, and it shall be being poured out and its skin shall be perishing.
38 but young wine into New<2537> skins is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 And no one drinking Old immediately is willing young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'". [Matthew 9:17 Mark 2:22]

According to the author of Hebrews, the final consummation was still future, but very close:

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying `New<2537>,' He hath made Old<3822> the first. The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance

A lot of us view the destruction of the OC Temple/Priesthood in 70ad as the final consummation of for the NC. So no more Temple services and ordinances.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
========================================
Not sure if this has been brought up, but I found this article interesting. It doesn't give a date.

Brit Shalom Information


Brit Shalom is a naming ceremony for Jewish families opting out of circumcision.

It is not intended for boys who have previously been circumcised in a hospital. Brit Shalom can be similar to the naming ceremony traditionally used for baby girls, sometimes called Brit Bat (daughter). Other names for Brit Shalom include Brit Ben (son), Brit Rechitzah (covenant with foot-washing), Alternative Brit (or Bris) Naming Ceremony, Brit HaLev (covenant of the heart), Brit B'li Milah (covenant without cutting) and Brit Chayim (covenant of life).

The ceremony may be performed by a Rabbi, Cantor, or experienced lay leader. Families may also create or adapt their own ceremony from existing samples or templates.


This page is maintained by Mark D. Reiss, MD
======================================

View attachment 275555

Well isn't that special? I wouldn't post an article that attacks YHWH's word, and leads people from their faith.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
 
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Adamina

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Well isn't that special? Do you post articles encouraging Christians to fall away, before their faith is even mature, too?
No. And that is off topic.
Why not address the post, including the Scriptures I posted, instead of personally attacking me.
In case you forgot, the topic is on "circumcision".
 
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HARK!

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No. And that is off topic.
Why not address the post, including the Scriptures I posted instead of personally attacking me.
In case you forgot, it is on "circumcision"

I certainly didn't forget the topic. maybe you forgot that I'm the OP.

I'm sorry if you were offended. I edited my post.
 
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Minister Monardo

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My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Are you saying that the covenant of Abraham is no longer valid, in opposition to what YHWH says?

What are your thought concerning YHWH's covenant with Noah? Do you think there might be another deluge?
Goofy question! LOL. 2 Peter 3:6, 7. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
You have this routine of proposing questions that puts words in other people's mouths, never spoken(or written) I personally do not find it conducive to Christian fellowship. If this was high school debate, you be bad. Work with us, not against us.
 
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Minister Monardo

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Well isn't that special? I wouldn't post an article that attacks YHWH's word, and leads people from their faith.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Romans 2 expanded for context, with just a little commentary...
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves, [functioning conscience].
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ." [Hours spent studying letters will not be a covering at The Judgment].
17 Lo! you are being denominated a Jew, and are resting on law,
and are boasting in God
, [not Israel].
18 and know the will, and are testing what things are of consequence, being instructed out of the law. [as opposed to the Spirit]
19 Besides, you have confidence in yourself to be a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
[Those who have become experts show a marked self-confidence, not a boldness].
20 a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.
[a knowledge about Truth is not the Spirit of Truth, it is the spirit of wanting to be right. Reliance on the Counselor is not reliance on knowledge of Torah].
21 You, then, who are teaching another, you are not teaching yourself! who are heralding not to be stealing, you are stealing! [teaching Law instead of liberty of conscience is stealing].
22 who are saying not to be committing adultery, you are committing adultery! who are abominating idols, you are despoiling the sanctuary!"
Romans 7:4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [Commitment to Torah study instead of Faithfulness to the Spirit is adultery].
23 who are boasting in a law, through the transgression of the law you are dishonoring God!
24 For because of you the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations, according as it is written.
25 For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision."
[How is arguing about the Law for hours a day on a forum putting law into practice? Free your slaves!]
26 If the Uncircumcision, then, should be maintaining the just requirements of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision? [work of conscience by the Holy Spirit= True circumcision].
27 And the Uncircumcision who, by nature, are discharging the law's demands, shall be judging you, who through letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of law." Seriously?
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;"
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God."
Psalm 83:3. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people,
and consulted against thy hidden ones.
 
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HARK!

שמע
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Goofy question! LOL. 2 Peter 3:6, 7. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
You have this routine of proposing questions that puts words in other people's mouths, never spoken(or written) I personally do not find it conducive to Christian fellowship. If this was high school debate, you be bad. Work with us, not against us.

So forever still means forever?
 
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Minister Monardo

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So forever still means forever?
Genesis 8:22. While the earth remains seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
An ordinance forever, throughout your generations.
2 Peter 3:13.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.
Revelation 21 and 22, the vision of the new heaven and new earth, where there is no sun, or moon, or cold or heat, or need for a law code. Just YHWH all, in all.
 
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HARK!

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Hi Hark!,

Maybe for clarity's sake, what is your point exactly regarding circumcision? After reading through this thread, I'm confused as to what "that" is. :)

Hi Kris, it was all in the OP. Pretty much everything else in this thread, is those trying to dance around the elephant in the room.

There we only two sides to this debate; and both were for circumcision. The argument is over whan and why we should be circumcised. The point is that one can't come back, two millennium later, and try to inject a third argument into a debate that was settled.
 
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Jan001

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Good quote from Hebrews.

For Jews that want to be under the law of Moses instead of the law of Christ, then they and their newborn sons must be circumcised.
Didn't Paul and the Apostles keep the law of Moses until their deaths?

Was the whole Law really made obsolete/consummated after the cross, 40yrs later in 70ad or both? OC Judaism as an obsolete religion w/o a Temple/Sanctuary, imho, tho I still love the Jewish people and respect their religion, as I try to do with all releigions.

These covenantle verses in Luke 5 mirror Hebrews 8:13

Luke 5:37
"And no one is casting young<3501> wine into Old<3820> skins, if yet no surely shall be ruined the young wine of the skins, and it shall be being poured out and its skin shall be perishing.
38 but young wine into New<2537> skins is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 And no one drinking Old immediately is willing young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'". [Matthew 9:17 Mark 2:22]

According to the author of Hebrews, the final consummation was still future, but very close:

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying `New<2537>,' He hath made Old<3822> the first. The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance

A lot of us view the destruction of the OC Temple/Priesthood in 70ad as the final consummation of for the NC. So no more Temple services and ordinances.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
========================================
Not sure if this has been brought up, but I found this article interesting. It doesn't give a date.

Brit Shalom Information


Brit Shalom is a naming ceremony for Jewish families opting out of circumcision.

It is not intended for boys who have previously been circumcised in a hospital. Brit Shalom can be similar to the naming ceremony traditionally used for baby girls, sometimes called Brit Bat (daughter). Other names for Brit Shalom include Brit Ben (son), Brit Rechitzah (covenant with foot-washing), Alternative Brit (or Bris) Naming Ceremony, Brit HaLev (covenant of the heart), Brit B'li Milah (covenant without cutting) and Brit Chayim (covenant of life).

The ceremony may be performed by a Rabbi, Cantor, or experienced lay leader. Families may also create or adapt their own ceremony from existing samples or templates.


This page is maintained by Mark D. Reiss, MD
======================================

View attachment 275555

Thank you for your post.

Scripture shows us that the Book of Hebrews was written shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. The priests were still serving at the temple altar when the following was written:

Hebrews 13:10
We (Christians) have an altar from which those who serve the tent (temple) have no right to eat.


Christians partake from the altar of Christ:

1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
 
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HARK!

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