Circumcision

[Minister Monardo]

There we only two sides to this debate; and both were for circumcision. The argument is over whan and why we should be circumcised. The point is that one can't come back, two millennium later, and try to inject a third argument into a debate that was settled.

Paul settled that debate 2000 years ago. And yet here we are, trying to distinguish the actual two sides to the story, flesh-circumcision of Abraham, Spirit-circumcision of Christ.
Flesh: Genesis 17:13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Spirit: Colossians 2:11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Where there is neither male or female, Jew or Gentile, vegan, pescadorian or carnivore.
Yesterday's post had more detail:
Yes, there are two sides. Flesh vs. Spirit.
Genesis 17:13. He that is born into your house and he that is purchased must be circumcised and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The apostle Paul was tasked by the Holy Spirit to set this issue in order for the church, and it is addressed extensively in his letters. The key to a right understanding is in the verse included: my covenant shall be in your flesh. The Law of Moses included commandments pertaining to circumcision, while also acknowledging there was a spiritual component to a full understanding of the covenant law.
The need to ultimately be circumcised in the heart is addressed in the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 10:16. Circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiff necked.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your children to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul that you may live.

With this in mind we will skip Paul’s in depth arguments and go directly to his conclusions.
1 Corinthians 7:19. Circumcision nor uncircumcision is not what matters, but obedience to God.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working by love.
Philippians 3:3. For we are the circumcision which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Hi Kris, it was all in the OP. Pretty much everything else in this thread, is those trying to dance around the elephant in the room.

There we only two sides to this debate; and both were for circumcision. The argument is over whan and why we should be circumcised. The point is that one can't come back, two millennium later, and try to inject a third argument into a debate that was settled.

Hi Hark!,

Well, I'm thankful I'm a girl -- and that my salvation isn't contingent upon anything other than faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Well, I'm thankful I'm a girl -- and that my salvation isn't contingent upon anything other than faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

Not so fast Miss Kris, this still applies to you!
The need to ultimately be circumcised in the heart is addressed in the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 10:16. Circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiff necked.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your children to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul that you may live.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Not so fast Miss Kris, this still applies to you!
The need to ultimately be circumcised in the heart is addressed in the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 10:16. Circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiff necked.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your children to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul that you may live.

Hi Minister Monardo,

Colossians 2:11-14 (NKJV) -- In Him [Jesus] you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.


Romans 4:9-11 (NASB) -- Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them...

 

[Minister Monardo]

Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

Maybe in this world. In the world to come that Peter speaks of no guilt, no sin, no death.
The prophecies that you are locked into must all be fulfilled before the new heaven and new earth that Peter speaks of here. People await the second coming, but this is what Ezekiel says about the restoration of Israel.
Ezekiel 34:
23 And I will raise up one shepherd over them, and he shall tend them, even my servant David, and he shall be their shepherd; 24and I the Lord will be to them a God, and David a prince in the midst of them; I the Lord have spoken it.

The Covenant of Peace

25And I will make with David a covenant of peace and I will utterly destroy evil beasts from off the land; and they shall dwell in the wilderness, and sleep in the forests. 26And I will settle them round about my mountain; and I will give you the rain, the rain of blessing. 27And the trees that are in the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her strength, and they shall dwell in the confidence of peace on their land, and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken their yoke; and I will deliver them out of the hand of those that enslaved them. 28And they shall no more be a spoil to the nations, and the wild beasts of the land shall no more at all devour them; and they shall dwell safely, and there shall be none to make them afraid. 29And I will raise up for them a plant of peace, and they shall no more perish with hunger upon the land, and they shall no more bear the reproach of the nations. 30And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and they my people. O house of Israel, saith the Lord God, 31ye are my sheep, even the sheep of my flock, and I am the Lord your God, saith the Lord God.
Ezekiel 37:
One Nation with One King

15And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16Son of man, take for thyself a rod, and write upon it, Juda, and the children of Israel his adherents; and thou shalt take for thyself another rod, and thou shalt inscribe it for Joseph, the rod of Ephraim, and all the children of Israel that belong to him. 17And thou shalt joint them together for thyself, so as that they should bind themselves into one stick; and they shall be in thine hand. 18And it shall come to pass, when the children of thy people shall say to thee, Wilt thou not tell us what thou meanest by these things? 19Then shalt thou say to them, Thus saith the Lord; behold, I will take the tribe of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel that belong to him, and I will add them to the tribe of Juda, and they shall become one rod in the hand of Juda. 20And the rods on which thou didst write shall be in thine hand in their presence. 21And thou shalt say to them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the whole house of Israel out of the midst of the nations, among whom they have gone, and I will gather them from all that are round about them, and I will bring them into the land of Israel. 22And I will make them a nation in my land, even on the mountains of Israel; and they shall have one prince: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided any more at all into two kingdoms: 23that they may no more defile themselves with their idols; and I will deliver them from all their transgressions whereby they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be to me a people, and I the Lord will be to them a God.
24 And my servant David shall be a prince in the midst of them: there shall be one shepherd of them all; for they shall walk in mine ordinances, and keep my judgments, and do them. 25And they shall dwell in their land, which I have given to my servant Jacob, where their fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell upon it: and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26And I will make with them a covenant of peace; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish my sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 And my tabernacle shall be among them; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be my people. 28And the nations shall know that I am the Lord that sanctifies them, when my sanctuary is in the midst of them for ever.
These prophecies don't line up with Revelation 21 and 22 visions, but the 1000 year reign in chapter 20. They are eternal to Israel, so nothing has come between Messiah and Israel for 2000 years, although no one believed it until our generation. 1948, and everybody thinks Messiah is returning. Messiah reigns on the earth from Jerusalem, Israel for the 3rd day, 1000 years, through His body, Israel, and David, his prince. All things are possible with God.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Hi Minister Monardo,

Colossians 2:11-14 (NKJV) -- In Him [Jesus] you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.


Romans 4:9-11 (NASB) -- Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them...

Don't worry, I knew you knew. Just don't tell Hark!!

 

[Thera]

I'm of the wrong gender to have a say in this discussion, since it wouldn't be my foreskin on the line.

I wouldn't be so sure. I actually think that being exempt from the procedure gives females an unbiased perspective. Males seem to be either "Owch! That would sting," or "I've had it done so it must be good." Females seem to do a good job analysing both the long term benefits against the short term (and understandably more than slight) discomfort.

I would say, pun intended, that this may result in a "sore" discussion and hope nobody uses this thread to "hit below the belt."

Lol. As long as you're not giving any "tips" on circumcision, I doubt that your comments will be skin off anyone's nose.

I can speak to the health benefits of the process (which might lend credence to believing that God gave circumcision as a good thing) as well as the evidences of pain inflicted on the newborn that I saw for myself, relate accounts men have given of their adult circumcision process, and tell you about males who voiced regret that they were circumcised as children and hated their parents for doing that to them (which might lend credence to a belief that we shouldn't circumcise routinely now in hope that it's barbaric, maybe not needed our "cleaner" environment, or other such discussion that will likely come up).

This would be interesting to hear. Also worth noting, though, about some uncircumcised males who wished they had been circumcised at birth. It's a lot easier for children, than for adults - in many cultures, it's a normal thing for newborn males to get snipped around 8 days old. It's not as easy or common for a man to undergo it later in life!

I would wonder if there isn't a fuller meaning about circumcision that concerns our hearts, just as there seems to be in both testaments an encouragement to strip away the veil from our hearts and to desire to see Him as He is and hear Him fully. I look forward to hearing that theme developed here, hopefully, that Paul mentioned in Romans 2.29.

This comment reminds me of the bible verse below. I don't know if it's indicating that our hearts are more sensitive without "foreskins" obstructing their function, or if the foreskin was simply considered to be a symbol of uncleanness, but it's powerful symbolism to take it away. While only (usually newborn) males are afflicted with a physical foreskin, the New Testament makes clear even females need to be cleansed of the "foreskin of their hearts".

Deuteronomy 10:16 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

[Thera]

What would Jesus do?

Jesus Christ was circumcised eight days after he was born. I believe that what is good for Jesus Christ is good for everyone.
May God Bless You

When you say "good for everyone", I hope you really mean "good for males"! Nice to see a female perspective on the subject - even in this thread, there was someone in this thread who didn't seem sure she could voice an opinion because she was a female. I think that because females don't need (and can't get) circumcision, they are actually in a position to give the most unbiased perspective on the topic.

On a more serious note, though, what do you make of the claim by some that the circumcision in the Old Testament was less severe (i.e. removed less skin) than that practiced today? I had treated the claim as some conspiracy theory, but had always wondered why Michelangelo had sculpted King David uncircumcised. I had thought it did King David a grave dishonour, until I read something that the statue actually was circumcised, but according to the way they did it in the Old Testament times.

 

[HARK!]

they are actually in a position to give the most unbiased perspective on the topic.

I would posit that the argument stems less from gender, and more from regard for obedience to YHWH's law.

 

[Thera]

I would posit that the argument stems less from gender, and more from regard for obedience to YHWH's law.

Agreed. But some feel reluctant to speak, because of gender.

But the truth of the matter is that even females and circumcised males are still in disobedience to God's law. This is why we need Jesus substitutionary atonement, irrespective of whether or not we circumcise.

Also, I think your vote is gender biased. "Why must we be circumcised" implies females voting must also be circumcised. Or was this intentional in referring to the circumcision of our hearts?

 

[HARK!]

Agreed. But some feel reluctant to speak, because of gender.

Agreed. I don't want to get into a discussion about the womanly parts of the Torah.

 

[Thera]

Agreed. I don't want to get into a discussion about the womanly parts of the Torah.

Lol. "Womanly parts" of the Torah?

I was just making the point that just because females don't need (and can't receive) circumcision, doesn't mean they can't voice a perspective on it. As you say, it should be about what scripture says, not about who refers to it.

 

[Scott Husted]

In the end circumcision is about who we are, by the removing of who we are not.

 

[Thera]

Why must we be circumcised?

1. To be saved.
2. To keep the law.

Unfortunatlly, the OP only gave 2 choices. One of them should have been for health, another cultural/religious, and one for "other", in case of someone has a another view. [I believe voting options can be changed in thread tools?]

He also included everyone in that requirement for circumcision - "we", when circumcision was only ever for males. A better question would have been "Why must we have all our males circumcised", then also include health and cultural/religious reasons as options.

Unless he is referring to "circumcision of the heart", but usually the heart is specified when referring to this type of circumcision (presumably to avoid having to refer to the other bit when one is talking about the other circumcision!)

 

[Scott Husted]

I see this as going back (though its throughout the Bible) to the beginning, with a woman and a seed, in the day that thou eat in relationship to our soul and the image of who we have always been.

 

[Jan001]

So forever still means forever?

"Forever" can also be a figurative idiom which means "for a long time".

1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, “I will not go up until the child (Samuel) is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide for ever.”


We do know that Samuel is not abiding there presently (he is deceased) and so it is factual to say that "forever" or "for ever" does not always mean what you think it means.



1 Kings 9:1-3
When Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, 2 the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 The Lord said to him, ‘I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you made before me; I have consecrated this house that you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.


Solomon's Temple (the house of the Lord) is no longer there in Jerusalem so it seems to me that "for ever" means "for a long time".

 

[Thera]

"Forever" can also be a figurative idiom which means "for a long time".

1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, “I will not go up until the child (Samuel) is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide for ever.”


We do know that Samuel is not abiding there presently (he is deceased) and so it is factual to say that "forever" or "for ever" does not always mean what you think it means.



1 Kings 9:1-3
When Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, 2 the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 The Lord said to him, ‘I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you made before me; I have consecrated this house that you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.


Solomon's Temple (the house of the Lord) is no longer there in Jerusalem so it seems to me that "for ever" means "for a long time".

I'm not sure about this. When God said the covenant of circumcision was forever, I don't think He meant just a long time. In my view, it at least meant until the end of the man's Earthly life (as males only need it once).

Jesus said the same thing about the Law - that not one jot or tittle would pass away. I think the answer is that the Law, including the covenant of circumcision, is fulfilled in Jesus for those who believe on Him, even unto this day.

 

[HARK!]

He also included everyone in that requirement for circumcision - "we", when circumcision was only ever for males. A better question would have been "Why must we have all our males circumcised", then also include health and cultural/religious reasons as options.

Unless he is referring to "circumcision of the heart", but usually the heart is specified when referring to this type of circumcision (presumably to avoid having to refer to the other bit when one is talking about the other circumcision!)

This was covered in post #110

Post #110

Again at the Jerusalem Council there were only two sides to the debate. You can't add your own arguments to the debate 2000 years ex post facto.

Oh, and males was implied. I hadn't considered that anyone would question that.

 

[Scott Husted]

When you start seeing the details in circumcision as an everlasting covenant, you begin to see why there was an earth before the seed (what the kingdom of God is likened to), even though the truth of this earth is in the seed.

You begin to see why first the natural or earthly man who tills what he is made of; a mist that comes out of the ground before a laboring of the building of a temple made with hands.

You see why the removing of flesh reveals the understanding of who we are as the children of God, a truth from the very beginning.

Why jews whose mother is earthly/hagar/sinia, the mentality of bondage to a law and to a sign whose veil had not been removed ... a face not circumcised ... a picture form of the revealing of their nakedness ...

You see why the law (like seed time and harvest) does not pass away until all things be fulfilled.

 

[Thera]

This was covered in post #110

It was responded to in post #110. You didn't really provide a good answer, though. For example, the Jerusalem Council certainly did not rule that males needed to be circumcised for salvation. However, neither did it rule that males must be circumcised to keep the law (for no one can keep the law), although it is obvious that to keep the law, a male must be circumcised. And for a male who is not circumcised on the eighth day, he's already missed the boat, even if he gets it done later. However, some still circumcise the males in their households for health or cultural reasons.

Oh, and males was implied. I hadn't considered that anyone would question that.

So how can "we" be circumcised, if "we" includes females?