Circumcision

[HARK!]

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:


(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses (Torah), from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

 

[Lost4words]

Nobody has to get circumcised these days. That was part of the old Covenant and for the Jewish nation

 

[HARK!]

Nobody has to get circumcised these days. That was part of the old Covenant and for the Jewish nation

Wrong.

There were no Jews nor Jewish nation in the days of Abraham.

 

[visionary]

If convicted, by all means follow your conviction.

 

[Lost4words]

Wrong.

There were no Jews nor Jewish nation in the days of Abraham.

They all ended up becoming Jews!

Circumcision is old Covenant my friend.

Doesnt mean anything anymore

 

[HARK!]

They all ended up becoming Jews!

No they didn't

Circumcision is old Covenant my friend.

My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Are you saying that the covenant of Abraham is no longer valid, in opposition to what YHWH says?

What are your thought concerning YHWH's covenant with Noah? Do you think there might be another deluge?

Doesnt mean anything anymore

And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me (YHWH) and you.

 

[HARK!]

If convicted, by all means follow your conviction.

Absolutely! Same with Baptism.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Neither choice is acceptable for a Gentile.

In the Jewish culture, a baby boy is circumcised on the 8th day as a sign between them and God of the covenant God made with them and all believers in Yeshua/Jesus share in those promises without being circumcised in the body but by being circumcised in heart. Paul also clarified in Galations that one who is circumcised in heart, it is obvious by their actions.

In Galatians, Paul got onto them because they were being coerced to be circumcised by some who were trying to convince them that circumcision was a necessary part of their salvation and being one with Israel. Paul made it clear that whether they were or were not circumcised, it had nothing to do with their salvation. It was due to their putting their faith and trust in Yeshua and what he had done at the cross for us.

If a Gentile decides he wants to be circumcised that's his own business but he should understand the commitment he's making when he does it. And, it will not add one bit of salvation to him.

 

[HARK!]

Paul also clarified in Galations that one who is circumcised in heart, it is obvious by their actions.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.

 

[HARK!]

In Galatians, Paul got onto them because they were being coerced to be circumcised by some who were trying to convince them that circumcision was a necessary part of their salvation and being one with Israel. Paul made it clear that whether they were or were not circumcised, it had nothing to do with their salvation. It was due to their putting their faith and trust in Yeshua and what he had done at the cross for us.

The was settled by James at the Jerusalem Council. I covered this in the OP.

James cited obedience to the Torah in his closing remarks:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

 

[HARK!]

If a Gentile decides he wants to be circumcised that's his own business but he should understand the commitment he's making when he does it. And, it will not add one bit of salvation to him.

It's an outward expression of faith, much like Baptism. If the change hasn't taken place within; the outward sign means nothing.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.


(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The was settled by James at the Jerusalem Council. I covered this in the OP.

James cited obedience to the Torah in his closing remarks:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.I suggest you read, very slowly, the letter to the Galatians.

 

[Lost4words]

No they didn't



My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Are you saying that the covenant of Abraham is no longer valid, in opposition to what YHWH says?

What are your thought concerning YHWH's covenant with Noah? Do you think there might be another deluge?





And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me (YHWH) and you.

Circumcision was for the Jews. Jesus brought in the new Covenant. Circumcision is no longer needed as per New testament teaching.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Circumcision was for the Jews. Jesus brought in the new Covenant. Circumcision is no longer needed as per New testament teaching.

It was never needed for salvation, even Abraham was saved by his faith which was accounted to him as righteousness. In Galatians, Paul makes that quite clear...we just have to read it deliberately, slowly, so as not to miss things and in its full context.

 

[HARK!]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.

James settled this at the Council of Jerusalem. Again the debate was about circumcision for salvation, VS, circumcision to keep the law. These were the opposing arguments at the debate. The winner was circumcision to keep the law. Then James handed down a decree of obedience to the Torah in his closing arguments. Shortly thereafter Paul circumcises Timothy.

 

[HARK!]

Circumcision was for the Jews. Jesus brought in the new Covenant. Circumcision is no longer needed as per New testament teaching.

No more needed than it was with Abraham. That was the whole point of the Jerusalem Council, to follow the Torah, not the Talmud.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

 

[HARK!]

It was never needed for salvation, even Abraham was saved by his faith which was accounted to him as righteousness.

James explains it succinctly.



(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

 

[expos4ever]

People: "eonian" and "owlam" do not necessarily denote "forever". Those who would argue that the Torah is eternal often make a living off simply assuming these terms always denote eternality.

But, prithee, do not take my word for it - do the research yourselves (it only takes 5 minutes).

 

[HARK!]

"eonian" and "owlam" do not necessarily denote "forever", as you have been shown.

You make a living off assuming otherwise.

Shown by whom?

Are you speaking of the deceptive tactics I debunked; or maybe you fell for those tactics?

 

[HARK!]

In Galatians, Paul makes that quite clear...we just have to read it deliberately, slowly, so as not to miss things and in its full context.

He also makes a good point in his letter to the Romans.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.