Circumcision

[Jan001]

He had to be circumcised to celebrate Pesach. You would do well to get a basic understanding of the Torah. Yahshua's whole message came from the Torah.

How can you effectively minster to someone that you're not even allowed to share one of their highest Kadosh days with?

Timothy was not a circumcised Jew when he became a Christian. He did not have to become circumcised in order to become a Christian. Timothy agreed to become circumcised in order to minister to some of the non-Christian Jews. If all the Jews that he was going to minister to were already Christians, there would have been no need to become circumcised.

 

[HARK!]

Who all are of the lost sheep of Israel? Do these include the descendants of the ten lost tribes who have intermarried with pagans?

I try not to get wrapped up in that. Yahshua called the blood descendants of Abraham, the sons of Satan; yet those who are not of his blood can share in his inheritance.

When Moses left Egypt, many Egyptians came with him, and entered covenant at Sinai. They became Israel by entering covenant.

YHWH doesn't show partiality. he gives everyone the same opportunity for faith-obedience as Abraham.

 

[HARK!]

Timothy was not a circumcised Jew when he became a Christian. He did not have to become circumcised in order to become a Christian. Timothy agreed to become circumcised in order to minister to some of the non-Christian Jews. If all the Jews that he was going to minister to were already Christians, there would have been no need to become circumcised.

Timothy was a ger toshav at the time. He had not yet become a full member of Israel. Timothy took the next step in his walk with Yahshua.

 

[Jan001]

The new covenant law, is the old covenant law, is the law of Moses, is the law of Yahshua, is YHWH's law.

YHWH's law is the character of YHWH. YHWH doesn't change. Neither does his law.

Jesus is the high priest of His new covenant/law. Jesus is not a Levite priest. He is a priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:20
where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

 

[HARK!]

Jesus is the high priest of His new covenant/law. Jesus is not a Levite priest. He is a priest according to the order of Melchizedek

Yes, I know.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

How is a transference of the law concerning the High Priesthood, relevant to our discussion?

 

[Jan001]

Timothy was a ger toshav at the time. He had not yet become a full member of Israel. Timothy took the next step in his walk with Yahshua.

Why should Timothy become a full member of Israel? How does he become of full member of Israel?

 

[pasifika]

Exactly - the new covenant is not with Gentiles, especially not Gentiles who willfully and boastfully exclude themselves from God’s people.

Hello, the new covenant was fulfilling of God's promises to Abraham and to His descendants (both Israel and Gentiles). Where Abraham is the Father of many nations.
Read Romans 9....For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel...
Verse 8..in other words it is Not the children of physical descent who are God's children, but it is the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are regarded as Abraham Children...

Nothing to do with the old covenant...

 

[Jan001]

Yes, I know.



How is a transference of the law concerning the High Priesthood, relevant to our discussion?

What is the point you are trying to make?

 

[HARK!]

Why should Timothy become a full member of Israel? How does he become of full member of Israel?

Again he wouldn't even be able to keep Pesach if he wasn't circumcised.

Ger toshav - Wikipedia


Ger Tzedek - Wikipedia

 

[Jan001]

Again he wouldn't even be able to keep Pesach if he wasn't circumcised.

Ger toshav - Wikipedia


Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia

Timothy did not desire to convert to Judaism.

 

[HARK!]

Timothy did not desire to convert to Judaism.

I didn't say anything about Judaism. I said Israel.

 

[HARK!]

Timothy did not desire to convert to Judaism.

Oh I see it's Satan at work again. Ger Tzedek, redirects to conversion to Judaism.

If Judaism had it right: Yashua wouldn't have had to come.

 

[Jan001]

Again he wouldn't even be able to keep Pesach if he wasn't circumcised.

Ger toshav - Wikipedia


Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia

Jesus Christ is my Pesach/Paschal Lamb of which I partake of in every Mass that I participate in.

John 1:36
and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!”


I have no need for the Pesach of the Jews who do not even believe in Him.

Revelation 5:12
saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”

Mark 14:24
And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

 

[Jan001]

I didn't say anything about Judaism. I said Israel.

Okay. Sorry.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm glad you caught that; but both groups were at both locations.

I never said they both were not there, just that they were two different groups. The one Paul called Judaizers and false teachers were the ones who were teaching circumcision required for salvation, the other taught circumcision as a means of obedience to God's word.

 

[Jan001]

Again he wouldn't even be able to keep Pesach if he wasn't circumcised.

Ger toshav - Wikipedia


Ger Tzedek - Wikipedia

I am not an Israelite. I am a Christian. I do not need to keep Ger toshav in order to be a Christian.

 

[Der Alte]

Again he wouldn't even be able to keep Pesach if he wasn't circumcised.

Oh I see it's Satan at work again. Ger Tzedek, redirects to conversion to Judaism.
If Judaism had it right: Yashua wouldn't have had to come.

Where in the NT are gentile Christians commanded to keep pesach and/or become Ger Tzedek?
As I recall there were four, and only four, requirements for gentiles. In Acts 15 Paul said twice that they gave no command for gentiles to be circumcised AND keep the law. It does NOT say "be circumcised to keep the law."
Jesus is our Pesach.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

 

[HARK!]

As I recall there were four, and only four, requirements for gentiles.

..and what might they be?

 

[Der Alte]

..and what might they be?

I quoted Acts 15 and 21 in another thread. Acts of the apostles 5:20 Acts of the apostles 5:29 Acts of the apostles 21:25

 

[Marumorose]

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

What would Jesus do?
Leviticus 12: 1-3 says "The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised

Luke 2:21 says "On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived."
Matthew 23:1-3 says "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you"
Jesus Christ was circumcised eight days after he was born. I believe that what is good for Jesus Christ is good for everyone.
May God Bless You