Circumcision

[Lost4words]

Proof?

Look at you posts!

 

[Lost4words]

Exactly - the new covenant is not with Gentiles, especially not Gentiles who willfully and boastfully exclude themselves from God’s people.

We are grafted on remember

 

[Der Alte]

And the renewed covenant is exclusively for Israel; and Yahshua was commissioned exclusively for Israel.

Rubbish. Show me from the NT that the new covenant in Jesus' blood was only for Israel?

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."​

 

[Lost4words]

And the renewed covenant is exclusively for Israel; and Yahshua was commissioned exclusively for Israel.

Utterly untrue.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

I just wanted to say thank you for posting this. I now understand something that I had not understood before. I may not be what you were aiming at but anyway, it cleared up something for me. Thanks.

 

[HARK!]

just wanted to say thank you for posting this. I now understand something that I had not understood before. I may not be what you were aiming at but anyway, it cleared up something for me. Thanks.

You're welcome; but I'm really curious. What did it clear up. Please share with us.

 

[HARK!]

Utterly untrue.

That's not my opinion. that's scripture.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[HARK!]

Rubbish. Show me from the NT that the new covenant in Jesus' blood was only for Israel?
Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Come out!

 

[Adamina]

Why must we be circumcised?

1. To be saved.
2. To keep the law.

Neither choice is acceptable for a Gentile.

If a Gentile decides he wants to be circumcised that's his own business but he should understand the commitment he's making when he does it. And, it will not add one bit of salvation to him.

Unfortunatlly, the OP only gave 2 choices. One of them should have been for health, another cultural/religious, and one for "other", in case of someone has a another view. [I believe voting options can be changed in thread tools?]

Will respond more later as time permits.

Gala 2:8 For the inworking to Peter into Apostleship of the circumcision, inworks also to me into the Nations.

Galations 5:
3 I am testifying yet again to every man circumcising that debtor he the whole law to be doing.
12 I just wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves.

Acts 15:1,2,24
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, 'Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved'…

James 2:10 For whosoever whole the law should be keeping and should be stumbling yet in one has become of all liable.

Phil 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the circumcision!
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship, boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.
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Some pics I found.......

.........

 

[HARK!]

Unfortunatlly, the OP only gave 2 choices. One of them should have been for health, another cultural/religious, and one for "other", in case of someone has a another view.

Again at the Jerusalem Council there were only two sides to the debate. You can't add your own arguments to the debate 2000 years ex post facto.

 

[Lost4words]

That's not my opinion. that's scripture.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

No, its YOUR interpretation of scripture

 

[Jan001]

Wrong.

There were no Jews nor Jewish nation in the days of Abraham.

According to the Law of Moses, the male Israelites were commanded to be circumcised.

Leviticus 12:2-3
Say to the people of Israel, If a woman conceives, and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

What was the requirement concerning circumcision for Christian Gentiles?

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.


No male could be a part of the old covenant unless he was circumcised. So this is one way we can know for sure that the old covenant is no longer in force today. The uncircumcised Gentiles were commanded to not be circumcised.


Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

 

[HARK!]

No male could be a part of the old covenant unless he was circumcised. So this is one way we can know for sure that the old covenant is no longer in force today.

There were ger toshav before Yahshua too.

 

[HARK!]

What was the requirement concerning circumcision for Christian Gentiles?

(CLV) Gn 17:13
He shall be circumcised, yea circumcised, the manservant born in your household or acquired with your money. Thus will My covenant be marked in your flesh as an eonian (FOREVER) covenant.

You understand that this is the Abrahamic covenant; right?

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It cleared up why in Acts the Brethren of the Circumcision were considered and referred to as men from "among us" (Act 15:24) meaning from our congregation of believers, then, in Galatians referred to as Judaizers and false teachers.

The men in Acts were believers but also still believed that it was necessary to be circumcised in order to obey the laws of God as given to Moses and they had not been authorized to go anywhere and teach anything.

In Galatians, Paul refers to the brethren of the circumcision when he's telling about his confrontation on a different occasion with Peter choosing to separate himself from the uncircumcised Gentiles because he feared what the Brethren of the circumcision would think.

The Brethren of the Circumcision had put their trust and faith in Jesus but believed we also must follow the law of God as given to Moses regarding circumcision as a work of obedience that was to follow faith. Remember James says, "I will show you my faith by my works". (Jm 2:18) Paul clarified that while it did not matter whether or not someone was circumcised, they should not decide to do it because they thought it saved them or from coercion.

The group referred to as Judaizers were not believers at all but had infiltrated the Galatians pretending to be believers and saying one "must" be circumcised in order to be saved. Which is not true.

 

[HARK!]

It cleared up why in Acts the Brethren of the Circumcision were considered and referred to as Brethren, but in Galatians, Paul calls them Judaizers and false teachers. How can they be believers and trusting in Yeshua for salvation and also Judaizers and false teachers?

I realized they are two different groups.

In Acts, they were believers but considered the law of God as given to Moses concerning circumcision necessary and an act of obedience that follows faith. Remember James says, "I will show you my faith by my works". (Jm 2:18)

The group in Galatians were not believers. They had not put their faith and trust in Jesus. They had purposely gone to Galatia to spy on the "freedom" that the Galatians had and the only thing they took issue with was the Gentiles (the Jews already were) were not "circumcised". They began teaching that circumcision was required in order to share in Israels promises. Therefore, making a works-based salvation, not a grace by faith-based salvation.

The two groups were not the same group as I initially had thought.

I'm glad you caught that; but both groups were at both locations. Some were following the Talmud, placing it over the Torah. Yahshua rebuked this. Other's were following the Torah. Abraham was 99 years old before he was circumcised. Circumcision is an outward sign of what has happened within. It is much like Baptism. Without the change within, it means nothing. While one group was saying it was important because of the Torah; they weren't forcing it. That yoke wasn't forced onto Abraham. He came into that covenant in faith. Those of the Torah understood this. Those of the Talmud were going against the message of the Torah. Faith should precede the works. The works mean nothing unless they are done in faith.

This is why Paul circumcised Timothy. Paul didn't cut Timothy against his will, right after the Council of Jerusalem. That would make Paul a violent flaming hypocrite. Timothy was ready to start ministering. How can you minister to those to fulfill YHWH's Torah; when you haven't taken the steps that your flock has already taken? He came to a point in his faith where he was ready to take the next step in his commitment to YHWH.

(CLV) Ro 8:3
For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, -sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.

(CLV) Ro 8:5
For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit.

 

[Jan001]

(CLV) Gn 17:13
He shall be circumcised, yea circumcised, the manservant born in your household or acquired with your money. Thus will My covenant be marked in your flesh as an eonian (FOREVER) covenant.

You understand that this is the Abrahamic covenant; right?

jan001 said: You do understand that the Abrahamic circumcision covenant came after the Gentile Abraham received his righteousness by faith? Therefore the circumcision covenant and afterwards the Law of Moses do not nullify the receiving of righteousness by faith by non-Israelites.

Romans 4:9-12
Is this blessedness, then, pronounced only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised.

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.

jan001 said:
Timothy did not have to be circumcised in order to be a Christian. He was circumcised because it was known by the Jews in those places that his father was a Greek. He was circumcised so that he would be accepted in the company of the Jews who were not Christians. Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles did not socialize together.

Galatians 2:3
But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.

Titus was not circumcised and was never required to become circumcised. 1 Corinthians 7:18

Abraham is the father of the Israelites who were circumcised and he is also the father of the uncircumcised gentiles who are righteous because of their faith and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:6-9
Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” 7 so, you see, those who believe are the descendants of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, declared the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you.” 9 For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed...17 My point is this: the law, which came four hundred thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance comes from the law, it no longer comes from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise.

 

[HARK!]

jan001 said: You do understand that the Abrahamic circumcision covenant came after the Gentile Abraham received his righteousness by faith? Therefore the circumcision covenant and afterwards the Law of Moses do not nullify the receiving of righteousness by faith by non-Israelites.

Nor does faith nullify obedience to YHWH. What's your point?

 

[HARK!]

Timothy did not have to be circumcised in order to be a Christian.

He had to be circumcised to celebrate Pesach. You would do well to get a basic understanding of the Torah. Yahshua's whole message came from the Torah.

How can you effectively minster to someone that you're not even allowed to share one of their highest Kadosh days with?

 

[Jan001]

That's not my opinion. that's scripture.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Who all are of the lost sheep of Israel? Do these include the descendants of the ten lost tribes who have intermarried with pagans?