Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

You may be underestimating the influence that Christianity has had on the development of Western culture. Western culture is the way it is, in part, because of the presence of Christians in it. (There are many other influences too, but Christianity is one.)

The command to love our neighbors as ourselves is really important to Christians, and over the centuries we have come to understand it better.

The Christian slave owner may reflect on loving his neighbor and decide to be a caring slave owner who treats his slaves well. This is better than being a cruel slave owner. But eventually he may realize that it's more loving to not own slaves at all.

The Christian man may look at the women in his life and decide to rule over them in a compassionate way that cares for their well-being, and that is good. But eventually he may see that it is even more loving to not rule over these women at all, but to respect them as equals, because (as St. Paul says) there is neither male nor female, for we are one in Christ Jesus.

And so on. A number of the "secular" values you cite have come about because Christians, over time, reflected on the full implications of loving one's neighbor as one's self, and discarded those elements of their cultures that led to people harming one another.

From evolution it went into degradation. That's the problem. Unlimited permissiveness of "anything goes" or "free for all" has brought about the uncontrolled orgy of immorality and evil...

 

[Landon Caeli]

Who said anything about politics? Doctrine and politics are two different things.


The love of God is taught in the Bible and the Quran, you're right. It's also not the only thing in there, however it's the easiest thing to not follow any doctrine and wave it off as okay because of God's love. Love isn't structureless, God told us how to live our lives. To love him is to obey him no matter how difficult or unpopular it is.

What if he demands obedience for something like in the Old Testament? Slavery and killing and keeping virgins and all that?

I think an Athiest is holier than the typical Muslim. And stands a better chance of being saved by Christ.

 

[Winken]

From evolution it went into degradation. That's the problem. Unlimited permissiveness of "anything goes" or "free for all" has brought about the uncontrolled orgy of immorality and evil...

Who is doing that? Specifically.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Your username is calling Jesus (pbuh) a goat. A goat is an animal that humans slaughter and eat. Why do you refer to him as an animal?

Well clearly you and the guy who liked your comment aren't sports fans, and don't understand what dots represent when they are placed between letters. When something has dots in between it...it means the letters aren't the word itself but rather they stand for a group of words or a particular phrase.

For example U.S.A= United states of America

G.O.A.T= Is used in basketball and football at times and means the greatest of all time.


That was the initial reason I used it but then I focused on the word GOAT itself maybe a few weeks later... In the OT a goat was sacrificed and utilized to bear iniquities and sacrifices like this had to be done over and over.

But JESUS was the ultimate scapegoat, he made it to where people no longer had to use animals and such as indicated in I believe hebrews... 10:1-25 because his blood is perfect and powerful. It's a blessing to be covered by the blood.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Who is doing that? Specifically.

Western culture. The modern post-Christian society, whose values church is eagerly accepting .

 

[Landon Caeli]

Who said anything about politics? Doctrine and politics are two different things.

A Muslim wouldn't know that -they combine the two.

 

[Winken]

Western culture. The modern post-Christian society, whose values church is eagerly accepting .

I agree that the post-Christian world is migrating into secular views. I'm not comfortable with "church is eagerly accepting." The Body of Christ is the Church (rather than church) and will never be eager to accept falsehoods. There are zillions of those who call themselves Christian, while looking eagerly for ways to escape into secularism, including sexual sin, abortion, open marriages, "unions" outside of marriage, and so much more......... secular solutions to much of what is happening around the world, embodied in sin. The Church is the Church. "It" can't be anything but the Body of Christ. Those who swirl around outside of that utterly Spiritual comprehension are an insult to the Church. Two judgments await: The JSoC, and the GWTJ. Some will enter the JSoC "as if by fire." Others will enter the GWTJ in absolute horror.

 

[Landon Caeli]

...Just like they dont know the concepts of Tradition, tradition, and Truth.

 

[JD16]

I think an Athiest is holier than the typical Muslim.

I'm an Atheist and I can attest that we have the same number of orifices as the average Muslim.....

 

[JD16]

Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

Modernity is not all that bad,

If you were to strictly do it old school

"Salman said that (one among) the polytheists remarked: I see that your friend even teaches you about the excrement. He replied; Yes, he has in fact forbidden us that anyone amongst us should cleanse himself with his right hand, or face the Qibla. He has forbidden the use of dung or bone for it, and he has also instructed us not to use less than three pebbles (for this purpose)."
Sahih Muslim 2:505

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Toilet_Etiquette

I don't know about you, but I much rather use toilet paper for that purpose, ...I suspect its a lot more comfortable, and probably saves on plumbing fees without all that pebbles clogging the pipes up....

 

[ripple the car]

Is this the part where you complain that Islamic morality is too different from secular liberal egalitarianism?

No, my friend, it is not. I am in my heart of hearts a Traditionalist Catholic Christian, and I understand what you're saying, and I get why.

What I will leave you with, is a blessing. Because my path was just like yours. I changed my name to Hanifa (like Ibrahim), embraced tawhid with all my being, and strove to do all for the sake of Allah. I get where you're coming from. I will leave you with a blessing, akhi, because I love you, for the sake of Christ. I have myself been a proud "revert to Islam", so my last words will not be an argument, but a blessing.

May the Lord bless you and keep you. May He make His face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you. May He turn His face towards you, and give you His peace. In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen.

 

[SkyWriting]

Read your own book, the Bible has moral prescriptions much larger than "be hopelessly accommodating of sin" and "connect with the values of the European enlightenment" but I don't need to argue, you've made my point for me. Christians see Christianity as nothing more than being uncontroversially submissive to liberalism (the philosophical current) whilst Muslims actually adhere to our moral code no matter how unpopular it is with the secular world. Those who live in filth and decadence will never be pleased with morality.

Why would you think I am not pleased with morality?
I fully support people with conservative values and
love them dearly.

At my parents house, about 20 muslims and carloads
of rice move in and out of the neighbors house at all
hours. I hope they do have a moral code with so many
people packed into one house.

When being critical of me, please limit your concerns
to what I actually say and ignore your imagination.
I am not influenced by popular society's whims at all.

Well, there are some current music groups I like.
I really enjoyed a Peter Gabriel concert last year.

“Love for the people what you love for yourself and you will be a believer; behave well with your neighbors and you will be a Muslim.”

“None of you has faith until he loves for his brother or his neighbor what he loves for himself.”

“By Him in whose Hand is my soul, a servant does not believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself of goodness.

“None of you has faith until he loves for the people what he loves for himself; and until he loves a person only for the sake of Allah the Exalted.”

“The servant does not reach the reality of faith until he loves for the people what he loves for himself of goodness.”

“Whoever would love to be delivered from the Hellfire and entered into Paradise, then let him die with faith in Allah and the Last Day, and let him treat the people the way he would love to be treated.”

“You will not enter Paradise until you believe and you will not believe until you love each other. Shall I show you something that, if you did, you would love each other? Spread peace between yourselves.”

“Be kind to your neighbor and you will be a believer; love for the people what you love for yourself and you will be a Muslim.”

 

[SkyWriting]

So you're saying that the idea of the Golden Rule supersedes all of the very clear and specific pronouncements in scripture by God of how to live your life? I can't believe that you or anyone actually believes that, since the Bible itself does not ever say that.

It's not even preached in any church. I discovered it myself.
It is ignored by male preachers becasue it suits them to tell women to shut up in church.
And they like the baloney about men only as leaders as well.

Why would any man support equal standing?

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mathew 7: 12
In everything then, do unto others as you would have them
do unto you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

(This supersedes anything anyone else has written in this book.)
this is the essence of


Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no other commandment greater than these.”

1 Peter 3:9
Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

James 1:19-20
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I agree that the post-Christian world is migrating into secular views. I'm not comfortable with "church is eagerly accepting." The Body of Christ is the Church (rather than church) and will never be eager to accept falsehoods. There are zillions of those who call themselves Christian, while looking eagerly for ways to escape into secularism, including sexual sin, abortion, open marriages, "unions" outside of marriage, and so much more......... secular solutions to much of what is happening around the world, embodied in sin. The Church is the Church. "It" can't be anything but the Body of Christ. Those who swirl around outside of that utterly Spiritual comprehension are an insult to the Church. Two judgments await: The JSoC, and the GWTJ. Some will enter the JSoC "as if by fire." Others will enter the GWTJ in absolute horror.

I absolutely and totally agree.

Who is the Church?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

No, my friend, it is not. I am in my heart of hearts a Traditionalist Catholic Christian, and I understand what you're saying, and I get why.

What I will leave you with, is a blessing. Because my path was just like yours. I changed my name to Hanifa (like Ibrahim), embraced tawhid with all my being, and strove to do all for the sake of Allah. I get where you're coming from. I will leave you with a blessing, akhi, because I love you, for the sake of Christ. I have myself been a proud "revert to Islam", so my last words will not be an argument, but a blessing.

May the Lord bless you and keep you. May He make His face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you. May He turn His face towards you, and give you His peace. In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen.

One of the best posts I've ever seen on CF. I love you.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I'm an Atheist and I can attest that we have the same number of orifices as the average Muslim.....

When was the last time you bowed to a portrait of Charles Darwin? Must upkeep that holiness, you know. Or else... The fire of unquenching chemical reaction awaits you!

 

[JD16]

When was the last time you bowed to a portrait of Charles Darwin? Must upkeep that holiness, you know. Or else... The fire of unquenching chemical reaction awaits you!

LOL, I used to have faith in Charles Darwin, ...didn't like his style,, so now I pray to richard dawkins

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

LOL, I used to have faith in Charles Darwin, ...didn't like his style,, so now I pray to richard dawkins

Oh I love Richard Dawkins. The Selfish Gene - a classic. One of the most intellectually honest thinkers on the planet. A little too dogmatic to my taste, though.

 

[ripple the car]

God bless you, friend! And Christ bless you.

One of the best posts I've ever seen on CF. I love you.

 

[Goodbook]

Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim

None of these things are modern and they happpened even in the early church read letter to Corninthians.
In terms of dress code and keeping silent for women Paul addressed that in his letter, and I think. Each christian lady who honors God you can see her meek and quiet spirit no matter what church she fellowships in.

Some christians do have four wives but one after the other not all at once. In the Bible Jesus met a woman at the well who had five husbands. however if you eant to be a bishop or hold office in church its recommnded you only have one wife.

Im sorry you dont feel the Bible is sufficient for you but truly if you read the whole thing and divided it correctly you wouldnt need the quran. GOd's grace is enough. Hes our loving Father and loved is so much He sent His only son Jesus to die for us us, so we wont perish and can have eternal life.

He gives us his law written on our hearts, we obey Him from our hearts but we dont earn salvation it is given by grace through FAITH.

Ask the Lord to show you who he really is. You are here on a christian forum for a reason. jesus loves you and wants you close to Him.