Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

[dzheremi]

When people say that "Islam is satanic" I know right then and there that they got their info from some neoconservative, Israel supporting Fox News/Breitbart/Jihadwatch hoopla. Read the Quran, it's free.

Yeah, that's right...it must be that I'm a pro-Israel, Fox News-watching right-winger...says the guy who has never interacted with me.

You know that you can be against Islam and against Israel at the same time, right? Plenty of people are. That is, I dare say it, the most common position for people from native Middle Eastern/North African churches to take. Israel was built atop their communities too, after all; it was not just a loss for the Muslims.

Take a listen to what the patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church, HH Pope Shenouda III, has to say about Israel and pressure by other churches to play nice with the Jews:

I agree with HH, not with the Vatican, and certainly not with your completely uninformed, knee-jerk reaction to my post.

As for theology, have you ever checked out Islamic theology? Avicenna? Averroes? Even Al Ghazali (not my favourite) they put Aquinas, Palamas, Luther, Calvin to shame.

Yes, I have. I don't care about any of the theologians you just mentioned. Islam is false, no matter how well you think it is argued for compared to some random Christian theologians you've picked out in order to present your religion more favorably. It's not going to work.

Just because Islam isn't hopelessly obscurantist and doctrine can be explicitly pronounced doesn't mean it's deficient. It means it's not mumbo jumbo

Hahahaha. Yes it is. It's utter mumbo jumbo (what else could we call the muqata'at, or disjointed letters, that appear at random before certain surahs of the Qu'ran? I guess Allah's mind got lost in his alphabet soup on those days whilst giving Muhammad his 'revelations'), whether or not "doctrine can be pronounced" concerning it or not.

Plenty of Muslims have awful failings, humans are flawed and often grotesque, but when you compare the two faiths; Islam wins on moral fortitude every time.

And again, I don't care for your cheap virtue-signaling version of morality. You mention the way that women dress or whether or not there is mixed sex worship in churches or whatever, and again, none of that applies to my church in the first place, but even if it did that wouldn't begin to address the real issues that show Islam's complete failure: It can't succeed without state backing because it fails to transform the people who practice it (it can't, since it is built upon the rejection of Christ our God). Your religion is the religion of beasts, who have never succeeded in anything of themselves. It is to the credit of the very people you are now belittling (and that your coreligionists in Daesh are now trying to exterminate) that you have anything in the way of civilization or philosophy, and we don't forget that, even as you insist upon your greater "moral fortitude".

It's funny that most critics of Islam either spout objective rubbish about satanism, or they sound like leftists going on about women's and homosexual rights and human freedom. Lol

I don't think there's anything funny about the fact that you have chosen to follow the religion of Satan and his most favored false prophet Muhammad. I think it's rather sad, actually. But you are free to do so. You are not free to post without opposition your anti-Christian comments and not-so-stealth proselytizing for your false religion under the guise of asking others' opinions, however.

 

[Landon Caeli]

When people say that "Islam is satanic" I know right then and there that they got their info from some neoconservative, Israel supporting Fox News/Breitbart/Jihadwatch hoopla. Read the Quran, it's free.

As for theology, have you ever checked out Islamic theology? Avicenna? Averroes? Even Al Ghazali (not my favourite) they put Aquinas, Palamas, Luther, Calvin to shame. Just because Islam isn't hopelessly obscurantist and doctrine can be explicitly pronounced doesn't mean it's deficient. It means it's not mumbo jumbo.

Plenty of Muslims have awful failings, humans are flawed and often grotesque, but when you compare the two faiths; Islam wins on moral fortitude every time.

It's funny that most critics of Islam either spout objective rubbish about satanism, or they sound like leftists going on about women's and homosexual rights and human freedom. Lol

Please don't insult Aquinas.

 

[W2L]

You made that implication, because you've said that the only thing that matters is love. No rules.

No, i never said that.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Yes, Islam denies the pagan-like deification of Jesus after his death and clarifies what he truly was. It is a purification of Christianity, which was already corrupted by AD40. To safeguard against that happening again, God gave the Quran to us verbatim so that everything is clear.

Jesus is the messiah, but read the Jewish foretelling of the messiah from the Hebrew bible. They never said that the messiah was God himself! In Roman culture, great men were often deified and turned into pagan Gods after their death. That's what happened to Christianity. If Jesus was here, today, he would be insulted and saddened that you would call him God. He was a true servant of God and his second best prophet, he knew that God is incomparable to any man. There is no God but God.

I do not accept many things in the Old Testament and some things in the New Testament epistles. They contradict Jesus. Wrong additions or mistakes. For example, the book of Deuteronomy says that the Jews must rule over all the nations of the world through financial interest. This has been accomplished almost on the global scale. I think the commandment of the Quran that any loan interest is grave sin of stealing that will condemn those committing it in Qiamat, I agree. Interest on loans is the worst sin ever. Outright slavery to those who create money out of thin air (the dollar pyramid).

 

[Landon Caeli]

We're going to use the proper English definitions of words, or there's no point in discussing anything.

That's not for you to decide, Muslim.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Yes, Islam denies the pagan-like deification of Jesus after his death and clarifies what he truly was. It is a purification of Christianity, which was already corrupted by AD40. To safeguard against that happening again, God gave the Quran to us verbatim so that everything is clear.

Jesus is the messiah, but read the Jewish foretelling of the messiah from the Hebrew bible. They never said that the messiah was God himself! In Roman culture, great men were often deified and turned into pagan Gods after their death. That's what happened to Christianity. If Jesus was here, today, he would be insulted and saddened that you would call him God. He was a true servant of God and his second best prophet, he knew that God is incomparable to any man. There is no God but God.

Blasphemer.

 

[W2L]

I do not accept many things in the Old Testament and some things in the New Testament epistles. They contradict Jesus.

The NT i read teaches that its better to give than receive, and teaches about love, and good deeds.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

The NT i read teaches that its better to give than receive, and teaches about love, and good deeds.

Amen. Jesus's teaching is so pure! But it has been tainted by money-hungry church.

 

[W2L]

Amen. Jesus's teaching is so pure! But it has been tainted by money-hungry church.

His words get twisted. I don't follow teachers, i follow scriptures.

 

[Winken]

1 Corinthians 2:13-15. BCT (Biblically Contextual Translation).

…13 And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Holy Spirit, expressing Spiritual Truths in Spiritual Words. 14 The flesh (the non-Christian; the backslidden Christian), does not accept those things coming from the Holy Spirit of God, denouncing them as foolishness, incapable of being understood, having no insight into the Truth that they are Spiritually Discerned. 15 The Spiritual One (the Most Holy God of Creation), judges all things, yet He himself is judged by no one.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

This man testifies that the current sad situation is the direct result of the Christian USA and the West committing grave war and crimes in that region. And he's absolutely right.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

You made that implication, because you've said that the only thing that matters is love. No rules. Even in the corrupted gospels, Jesus says that he didn't come to change the law of the Old Testament, just fulfill it. The Quran is the true fulfillment of it, because the Binle was corrupted.


Do you think that the Bible says that women are allowed to have authority over men? Where does it say that? It doesn't, yet you'll never find a Christian who would betray his true gospel (secular liberal humanism) to make sure that his wife or any other woman doesn't wield authority over him. Maryam, mother of Jesus covered her body but
Christians think it's okay for a woman to show her figure to the world. I can go on and on.

Injil clearly says that women are to be very modest and cover their heads. It also says they are to submit to men and to be silent and not to teach men because mother Hawa sinned first. Etc. It's all there. Churches refuse to obey.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Injil clearly says that women are to be very modest and cover their heads. It also says they are to submit to men and to be silent and not to teach men because mother Hawa sinned first. Etc. It's all there. Churches refuse to obey.

Why can't women teach men? Why do they have to be silent? Who is mother Hawa?

 

[Landon Caeli]

...Seems like the things we're referring to here are traditions. Traditions can change, unlike Truth.

 

[Landon Caeli]

...Do Muslims understand the differences between (T)radition, (t)radition, and Truth?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Why can't women teach men? Why do they have to be silent? Who is mother Hawa?

1 Timothy 2:12

Hawa is Eve, our great-great...-grandmother.

 

[Landon Caeli]

..

 

[CrystalDragon]

Paul was apolitical, he was spreading the Gospel not trying to change the world. Paul gave up his life on earth, he counted all things as a loss.

About your main query, I believe in following the law of love which is taught by the Lords apostles. Love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies and do good for them. Thats what the Church needs to practice and preach.

Who said anything about politics? Doctrine and politics are two different things.


The love of God is taught in the Bible and the Quran, you're right. It's also not the only thing in there, however it's the easiest thing to not follow any doctrine and wave it off as okay because of God's love. Love isn't structureless, God told us how to live our lives. To love him is to obey him no matter how difficult or unpopular it is.[/QUOTE]

What if he demands obedience for something like in the Old Testament? Slavery and killing and keeping virgins and all that?

 

[PloverWing]

However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

You may be underestimating the influence that Christianity has had on the development of Western culture. Western culture is the way it is, in part, because of the presence of Christians in it. (There are many other influences too, but Christianity is one.)

The command to love our neighbors as ourselves is really important to Christians, and over the centuries we have come to understand it better.

The Christian slave owner may reflect on loving his neighbor and decide to be a caring slave owner who treats his slaves well. This is better than being a cruel slave owner. But eventually he may realize that it's more loving to not own slaves at all.

The Christian man may look at the women in his life and decide to rule over them in a compassionate way that cares for their well-being, and that is good. But eventually he may see that it is even more loving to not rule over these women at all, but to respect them as equals, because (as St. Paul says) there is neither male nor female, for we are one in Christ Jesus.

And so on. A number of the "secular" values you cite have come about because Christians, over time, reflected on the full implications of loving one's neighbor as one's self, and discarded those elements of their cultures that led to people harming one another.

 

[Landon Caeli]

You may be underestimating the influence that Christianity has had on the development of Western culture. Western culture is the way it is, in part, because of the presence of Christians in it. (There are many other influences too, but Christianity is one.)

The command to love our neighbors as ourselves is really important to Christians, and over the centuries we have come to understand it better.

The Christian slave owner may reflect on loving his neighbor and decide to be a caring slave owner who treats his slaves well. This is better than being a cruel slave owner. But eventually he may realize that it's more loving to not own slaves at all.

The Christian man may look at the women in his life and decide to rule over them in a compassionate way that cares for their well-being, and that is good. But eventually he may see that it is even more loving to not rule over these women at all, but to respect them as equals, because (as St. Paul says) there is neither male nor female, for we are one in Christ Jesus.

And so on. A number of the "secular" values you cite have come about because Christians, over time, reflected on the full implications of loving one's neighbor as one's self, and discarded those elements of their cultures that led to people harming one another.

Exactly my thoughts... I just don't have the patience to put it to words here on this thread. There is so much flaw here, it seems useless to even attempt fixing.