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Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

SkyWriting

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- The mixing of men and women in church
- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)
- Women speaking above men and having authority over men
- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches

“Worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him; establish the prescribed prayers; give the obligatory charity; (and I think he said) fast the month of Ramadan; and however you love for the people to treat you, then treat them that way;
and however you hate for the people to treat you,
then do not treat them that way.”

- The mixing of men and women in church
- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)
- Women speaking above men and having authority over men
- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches

and however you hate for the people to treat you,
then do not treat them that way.”



“Then love for your brother what you love for yourself.”Musnad Ahmad


“The diseases of the former peoples are creeping towards you, envy and hatred, and hatred is the razor; I do not say that it shaves hair, but rather it shaves the religion; and none of you has faith until he loves others; shall I tell you what will establish that for you? Spread peace between yourselves.”


“That you love for the people what you love for yourself, and you hate for the people what you hate for yourself, and that you speak goodness or remain silent.”


“Some of the righteous predecessors said, “The people who love Allah look by the light of Allah, and they are compassionate with those who disobey Allah. They hate their actions but show mercy to them so that through their admonitions they might leave their actions. They are afraid that the Hellfire will consume their bodies. The believer will not truly be a believer until he is pleased for people to have what he is pleased for himself. If he sees in someone else some merit by which they excel him, then he wishes the like of it for himself. If that merit is related to the religion then it is good.”
 
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SkyWriting

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Secular values are values that have no basis in religion, but instead on the secular ideals of the post-enlightenment era.
however you love for the people to treat you, then treat them that way;
and however you hate for the people to treat you,
then do not treat them that way.”Number 15833, Sahih

(post-enlightenment?)
 
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SkyWriting

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how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world.
“That you love for the people what you love for yourself, and you hate for the people what you hate for yourself, and that you speak goodness or remain silent.”
 
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SkyWriting

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in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.

Each of your 4 wives may have sex with 4 other men?
So you may share sexual diseases from 16 men? Yuck!

“That you love for (women) what you love for yourself,

and you hate for the people what you hate for yourself,
and that you speak goodness or remain silent.”
 
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SkyWriting

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It doesn't, yet you'll never find a Christian who would betray his true gospel (secular liberal humanism) to make sure that his wife or any other woman doesn't wield authority over him. Maryam, mother of Jesus covered her body but Christians think it's okay for a woman to show her figure to the world. I can go on and on.

You may not differentiate between genders.

“None of you has faith until he loves for the people (male or female) what he loves for himself; and until he loves a person only for the sake of Allah the Exalted.”[Musnad Ahmad, Number 13463, Sahih]

“Whoever would be delighted to be delivered from the Hellfire and entered into Paradise, then let him die while he witnesses that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and His messenger; and he treats people the way he loves to be treated.”[At-Tabarani, Al-Ma’jam Al-Awsat, Number 4881, Hasan]
 
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SkyWriting

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From evolution it went into degradation. That's the problem. Unlimited permissiveness of "anything goes" or "free for all" has brought about the uncontrolled orgy of immorality and evil...

Actually it was Jesus who said to love both your neighbors and your enemies.
Doing so is the solution, not judgment.

For example, my neighbor across the street is gay.
What would I gain for even one moment of disdain
when talking to him? Would that moment bring him
closer to God?
Or would it just make me feel righteous.
 
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ChristianFromKazakhstan

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Actually it was Jesus who said to love both your neighbors and your enemies.
Doing so is the solution, not judgment.

For example, my neighbor across the street is gay.
What would I gain for even one moment of disdain
when talking to him? Would that moment bring him
closer to God?
Or would it just make me feel righteous.

The thread is about churches abandoning the teachings of Jesus and the Bible in the area of morality and conforming with the secular (i.e. sinful) society. The society went very far from God, and so fusing with its ways isn't what churches should do.

The Bible clearly says homosexuality is a grave sin preventing people entering the Kingdom of God. If we believe the Bible, then that must be our position. You can unconditionally love and accept an inmate in prison as a soul for which Jesus has died, but you can't love and condone the burglary and murder he commted.
 
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SnowyMacie

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I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.

Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

The Bible is not exactly the Christian equivalent of the Qu'ran, though many Christians make it out to be that. It is not meant to be this static, final, all-compassing, infallible, inerrant, revelation from God. It is written by fallible men who were inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16's most accurate translation is "All scripture is INSPIRED by God and is also useful for teaching, teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"), and is a collection of poems, letters, biographies, songs, and apocalyptic literature. The authors of the Bible were men who were inspired by God to write what they did, I do not believe that Paul, in his wildest dreams, would have thought that Christians are still reading his letters to this day, as scripture no less, almost two-thousand years later.

Due to this, and the fact that sometimes teachings appear to contradict, scripture is not meant to be read like a book of teachings where all is equal. There is a story recorded in the Talmuds about two Rabbinical schools, a Roman centurion came to the first school and demanded "Teach me your Torah (the Law) while I stand here on one foot." The rabbi in charge hew him out without saying anything. So he went across town and said the same thing to the other school. The rabbi there said to him "Love God with your whole being and Love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is commentary." THEN he threw him out. The latter is the teachings that Jesus and Paul affirmed in their teachings. When Jesus is asked "What is the greatest command?", he's essentially being asked the same question the centurion is asking those rabbis. Christ answers "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' The second is like it, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. All of the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments." Paul, after building an argument in Romans about law, grace, and sin says "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet'; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law" is saying the same thing, if not kind of explaining it as a Jew to his partially Gentile audience. Everyone agreed the greatest commandment was Love the Lord your God, and how you loved God (besides the laws directly against God: idolatry, blasphemy, and apostasy) was by keeping his commandments, and what Jesus and Paul are saying is that you love God by loving your neighbor as yourself. ALL of the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.

That doesn't mean that the teachings found in scripture outside of those are entirely meaningless, it means that either are unloving acts (all sin is inherently unloving act and produces bad fruit) or served a specific purpose for a specific time. When scripture says that women are not permitted to teach men or the sex segregated in worship (not found or referenced in the Bible), it is likely that that was a commandment for a specific purpose and a specific reason, and we can see evidence in scripture when the Jewish people and Christian council changed things. For the Hebrews, it was Eunichs, compare Duet. 23:1-3 to Isaiah 56:3-8, Eunichs are excluded to demonstrate God's holiness, but later that command is no longer necessary to accomplish that purpose and becomes obsolete. The early Christian church, it was circumcision. The only scriptures the church had were the Jewish scriptures which commanded circumcision as a sign of allegiance to God, and there was probably less wriggle room in scripture than this. The issue was over whether or not gentiles could become Christians without first being circumcised. The Gentiles in question knew two things: they trusted Jesus and didn't want to take a knife to their manhood. Even Peter and Paul had a public confrontation about this (Gal 2:11-14). The church decided was that it was best for them to not burden them with the requirement because the purpose was no longer needed, and it was following the rules for the sake of the rules.

That is something that Christ consistently challenges in His teachings: following the rules for the sake of the rules. Jesus repeatedly teaches and says that the purpose and principal (love) is more important than the letter of the law. That's the entire purpose of the Sermon on the Mount, and over and over again in the rest of the gospels Jesus reiterates that God is more interesting the the underlying principles than rules themselves. He even takes it a bit further and says the principle of the law actually holds us to a higher standard and requires a larger commitment. That is why all of the things you have brought up have happened or are happening in the Church. God's standards have never changed, though what they have looked like have changed.
 
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