Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

It makes me very sad to see, because so many people are without any guidance. Worse yet, people who see these same problems don't know where to turn to because they don't know that Muslims also love Jesus and Moses and all of the prophets (peace upon all of them) and think that we are something completely different. I also think that a lot of white westerners see Islam as a foreigner's religion unlike Christianity, which makes them hesistant. I'm lucky I grew up in a multicultural place so I had much less of a problem with hang ups.

I understand you one million percent. However, despite the modern corrupted church that completely misrepresents the true way of Jesus (PBUH), I believe the gospel. I grew up as a Muslim and the majority of my family and friends are devout Muslims.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.

I'm generally very respectful of everyone, including Satanists. But are you sure you would want to hear my answers if they were contrary to what you were being taught in Islam? Even though I would be as polite and respectful as I knew how, I have to warn you, I would start by saying your religion was inspired by the Devil in order to recruit the deceived into a sword to be put to the necks of Jews and Christians to annihilate them.

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

I mean sin is in the bible...i'm not sure what you're getting at. Also in the NT which is where we live... it's made clear in corinthians one man...one woman. And made clear in Romans 1:16-28 or so...anything else isn't correct.

Yes, sin is in the Bible. However most churches ignore many aspects of the Bible that are no longer trendy. Again, take a look at how women act in church and Christian societies and the mixing of the sexes. I gave several examples.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Yes, sin is in the Bible. However most churches ignore many aspects of the Bible that are no longer trendy. Again, take a look at how women act in church and Christian societies and the mixing of the sexes. I gave several examples.

You should read my response earlier addressing why many churches are false. It's been like that even when JESUS walked the Earth. The bible says narrow is the way and few be there to find it... but wide is the way to destruction. The bible indicates heaven is only about 1,500 square miles also..

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

I'm generally very respectful of everyone, including Satanists. But are you sure you would want to hear my answers if they were contrary to what you were being taught in Islam? Even though I would be as polite and respectful as I knew how, I have to warn you, I would start by saying your religion was inspired by the Devil in order to recruit the deceived into a sword to be put to the necks of Jews and Christians to annihilate them.

If you'd say that, I can't do anything. What it says to me is that you don't actually know the basics of Islamic doctrine, and only have knowledge from second hand neocon sources. Especially in regards to the Quranic treatment of Christians and Jews. Doesn't really answer my query, but I guess it's easier to lash out when called out on the problems of Christianity than address them. Good day.

 

[Winken]

I agree with you 100%. All churches are serving the world. The reason being, the bottom line of their existence is money. It's the opposite of what Jesus (PBUH) was teaching. According to the Injil, Jesus was teaching, it's wrong to give money to church (give Caesar's to Caesar). He was teaching that hireling pastors run away when a wolf comes. He was teaching, the true worship is not in a church building, but in the Spirit and in truth. The church has completely betrayed Jesus (PBUH). They claim they follow Him, but instead, they twisted and skewed His words for their economic benefit.

That's why God is far from today's churhes. They are worldly organisations serving the corrupt society based on credit interest slavery. That's why churches teach the opposite of what Taurat, Zabur and Injil are teaching. For example, what you mentioned and much more. They operate on money. They've sold their souls to mamonna.

Define "churches."

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

You should read my response earlier addressing why many churches are false. It's been like that even when JESUS walked the Earth. The bible says narrow is the way and few be there to find it... but wide is the way to destruction. The bible indicates heaven is only about 1,500 square miles also..

So what you're saying is that Christianity doesn't really exist on earth and is only practiced by a few people? How does that mix with "the gates of hell will not prevail?"

To me it seems like a lot of Christians are really trying but they're just lost, because Christianity leaves out much of the precious explanatory logic of Islam. Check out the Quran yourself, it's essentially a completion and clarification of the Bible. Most of the things you read in it will be familiar to you.

 

[W2L]

We believe in the same Jesus (pbuh), born to the Virgin Mary. We also believe that he is the Messiah, and the Word (Logos would be the equivalent Christian term) who was sent to bring the revelation to the world, he ascended to heaven alive and will return to defeat the Antichrist in the End Times. The Muslim view is that Jesus as God is something that arose after his death, when a cult grew around him and corrupted his message.

You deny that Jesus is Gods only begotten son. If im not mistaken. To hear you talk, Muslims are Christians.

 

[Winken]

So what you're saying is that Christianity doesn't really exist on earth and is only practiced by a few people? How does that mix with "the gates of hell will not prevail?"

To me it seems like a lot of Christians are really trying but they're just lost, because Christianity leaves out much of the precious explanatory logic of Islam. Check out the Quran yourself, it's essentially a completion and clarification of the Bible. Most of the things you read in it will be familiar to you.

Christianity is not based upon "explanatory logic." Religions do that. Christianity is not a religion.

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

You deny that Jesus is Gods only begotten son. If im not mistaken. To hear you talk, Muslims are Christians.

Yes, we do deny that Jesus Christ is the son of God, God the son, or Divine himself. He was the prophet of God, the messiah foretold by the Jews, and the Word of God who ascended alive into heaven and will return to defeat the antichrist but he is not God himself, his miracles were performed by God working through him, not his own hand.


As I said, Islam is a purification and completion of Christianity, just as Christianity was a purification and completion of Judaism. Muhammad was the final prophet, and the Quran was given to him verbatim by God and is kept in its original state so that it cannot be corrupted like the Christian gospel was.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

So what you're saying is that Christianity doesn't really exist on earth and is only practiced by a few people? How does that mix with "the gates of hell will not prevail?"

To me it seems like a lot of Christians are really trying but they're just lost, because Christianity leaves out much of the precious explanatory logic of Islam. Check out the Quran yourself, it's essentially a completion and clarification of the Bible. Most of the things you read in it will be familiar to you.

No I never stated christianity doesn't exist... If you take time to read a bible in your spare time you will see throughout the 7 periods of time in the bible the opposition always has a larger body then the followers of God. We see this clear as day in the NT. But there's another thing we also see.. a lot of pagan faiths in the bible and hte opposition is based off true christianity. False "church", False "christian", "filled" with sin, anti "christ". Little g "god". Every faith has a "place of worship" every religion has a "god".


Additionally, even the false churches have what? A a bible, most people on the planet knows about who? God The best selling book of all time is what? The bible.


Hence the gates of hell shall not prevail is seen today because of the dominance of the christian influence I mean even in secular churches people at least believe in God even if maybe many of them aren't saved or falsely led. It's not straight of paganism like in the OT. People have a bible and truth in it..they just choose not to live and abide by it just as they did when the word was in flesh walking the Earth. But to say God is dead is wrong. Even during JESUS time sure he had a few followers and wasn't welcomed in churches... but did hell prevail against him? No Sure there are only a few true followers of christ... but has hell stopped those good doctrine abiding churches?? NO. Has the bible been exterminated after all this time? No


What you don't understand is prevail means to overtake...to conquer that's why the bible says no weapon formed against thee shall prosper or reach it's intended end. The bible makes it clear "they that live godly will suffer persecution". But the bible also makes it clear that truth will continue despite a preponderance of the world being against it.

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

Christianity is not based upon "explanatory logic." Religions do that. Christianity is not a religion.

That doesn't make any sense. Words have definitions. Is this some sort of wierd attempt to claim that Christianity is above "making sense" because Islam is more logical and less cluttered with the ideas of flaws of men because unlike the gospels and epistles, it was dictated to the prophet by God, verbatim.


We're going to use the proper English definitions of words, or there's no point in discussing anything.

 

[ripple the car]

All of the above drew me to Islam, too, from a evangelical Lutheran background. I hear you. Islam does offer clear-cut, obeyed, and obvious standards for right and wrong, has an understandable theology (tawhid), and the Muslim world is generally far more unified than the Christian world, though the Sunni-Shia-Sufi-Qurani-Ahmadi-Ibadi differences bear mentioning.

But today, I am a Christian. Less so because the Christian world is perfect, unified, obedient, sinless, or on fire for righteousness (not so much), but because of the Person of Christ Himself.

And am coming to understand that in all likelihood, the fullness of Truth in Christianity is likely expressed in its wholeness and depth through the Catholic Church. Not that every individual Catholic perfectly reflects or believes this, but that grace and Truth exists independently of how many actually follow it.

God bless you, too, akhi.

Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim

 

[W2L]

As I said, Islam is a purification and completion of Christianity, just as Christianity was a purification and completion of Judaism.

Islam denies the most sacred thing of all,
that God sacrificed His only begotten son. Big difference between Islam and Christianity. Therefore, your idea that Islam is a higher level of Christianity, is incorrect.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Yes, sin is in the Bible. However most churches ignore many aspects of the Bible that are no longer trendy. Again, take a look at how women act in church and Christian societies and the mixing of the sexes. I gave several examples.

Love of money. The churches' existence totally depends on congregants bringing "tithes and offerings" (10% tax and monetary donations), and also favour of governments giving tax breaks to church. That's a direct contradiction to the teaching of Jesus (PBUH). How can churches claiming to follow a teaching, disregard it's most important demands? I really can't wrap my head around it. I think, it's hypocrisy and mistake from get go, from the foundation up.

The result is, the church seeks to please the world. Otherwise, her livelihood will be cut off. That's why it so readily adapts to anything the secular world believes in the area of morality.

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

O

No I never stated christianity doesn't exist... If you take time to read a bible in your spare time you will see throughout the 7 periods of time in the bible the opposition always has a larger body then the followers of God. We see this clear as day in the NT. But there's another thing we also see.. a lot of pagan faiths in the bible and hte opposition is based off true christianity. False "church", False "christian", "filled" with sin, anti "christ". Little g "god". Every faith has a "place of worship" every religion has a "god".


Additionally, even the false churches have what? A a bible, most people on the planet knows about who? God The best selling book of all time is what? The bible.


Hence the gates of hell shall not prevail is seen today. Even during JESUS time sure he had a few followers and wasn't welcomed in churches... but did hell prevail against him? Sure there are only a few true followers of christ... but has hell stopped those good doctrine abiding churches?? NO.


What you don't understand is prevail means to overtake...to conquer that's why the bible says no weapon formed against thee shall prosper or reach it's intended end. The bible makes it clear "they that live godly will suffer persecution". But the bible also makes it clear that truth will continue despite a preponderance of the world being against it.

"The best selling book" that nobody follows.


Prevail means to overtake, conquer, you're right. You've said yourself that most Christians have false beliefs, meaning that "real" Christianity is inaccessible to the vast majority of humans. That means that the gates of hell have in fact prevailed.

There are a lot of people who identify as Christians in this world, but they live by worldly morals. Even you, in your defence of Christianity's integrity are breaking the commandments of the Bible right now. Look at your username! If Jesus is God that would be blasphemy, to me as a Muslim its insulting a prophet of God. A grave sin.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Doesn't really answer my query, but I guess it's easier to lash out when called out on the problems of Christianity than address them. Good day.

Understand, I promise you I wasn't lashing out at you. I am speaking to you in love. You presented about 10 queries that would take me days and days and days to sort out for you, so I went straight to the heart of the matter.

I was looking to see if you could handle my honest response without becoming offended. "Good day" says that my hopes for that are not working out.

Happy that you have found contentment in your faith. My prayer for you will simply be that you see more than you presently do now.

 

[Winken]

That doesn't make any sense. Words have definitions. Is this some sort of wierd attempt to claim that Christianity is above "making sense" because Islam is more logical and less cluttered with the ideas of flaws of men because unlike the gospels and epistles, it was dictated to the prophet by God, verbatim.


We're going to use the proper English definitions of words, or there's no point in discussing anything.

Intellectual pursuits do not explain God. God is utterly Spiritual. The Spiritual is above "making sense." Religion is an organized system of beliefs demanding obedience through structure. Christianity is none of that.

 

[SkyWriting]

Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.
What I'm talking about is things like:
- The mixing of men and women in church
- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)
- Women speaking above men and having authority over men
- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches
- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)
- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)

The basis for morality in Christianity is to treat all other people
just the same way as you would like them to treat you.

For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

So any special treatment of women, men, old, young, sexual orientation,
skin color, or even religious orientation is not allowed or was practiced
by Jesus.

So any church groups moving toward equal treatment of all are correct
and moving away from error, and slavery.

 

[Walk the Straight Path]

Islam denies the most sacred thing of all,
that God sacrificed His only begotten son. Big difference between Islam and Christianity. Therefore, your idea that Islam is a higher level of Christianity, is incorrect.

Yes, Islam denies the pagan-like deification of Jesus after his death and clarifies what he truly was. It is a purification of Christianity, which was already corrupted by AD40. To safeguard against that happening again, God gave the Quran to us verbatim so that everything is clear.

Jesus is the messiah, but read the Jewish foretelling of the messiah from the Hebrew bible. They never said that the messiah was God himself! In Roman culture, great men were often deified and turned into pagan Gods after their death. That's what happened to Christianity. If Jesus was here, today, he would be insulted and saddened that you would call him God. He was a true servant of God and his second best prophet, he knew that God is incomparable to any man. There is no God but God.