Christians are not going to be judged by the ten commandments.

[listed]

And what is wrong with being judged by the 10 commandments??--They are a barometer of ones love--of our love for man--we won't kill, commit adultery, steal from each other and so on because we love them. If we love God, we do what He says and honor His name and so on. Why is all that so impossible? God's love is in us and we do those things out of that love--His yoke is easy, his burden light. It is not the keeping of the 10 commandments that upsets everyone--they'll be automatically kept when you love--it's the 4th one that gets everybody riled up--if we are judged by keeping only 9 then no one would be saying anything. God's grace will be given to those who love God and man. The commandments were given to tell us how to love God and man--there are 6 for loving man, only 4 for loving God--but the objection is really only over one of the 4.

Because I do not want the retirement plan it provides.



There is nothing wrong with the ideal you present in the eliminating of sin and living in an ideal environment. We certainly oppose sin. Remember sin was before the law. In fact evil is the cause of all law anywhere.

 

[MoreCoffee]

BobRyan wants an answer for some verses in James chapter two. But BobRyan didn't quote the last verse in the paragraph containing the verses in which he is interested and about which he wants me to comment. So I think I'll comment after quoting the whole paragraph. Here it is.

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.​

(James 2:10-13)

The ten commandments say nothing about mercy. If one wants to be judged by the ten commandments then expect that the judgment will be merciless.

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one, has become guilty in respect to all of it.

The noun, as the italics show, is not in the Greek, but the English is a satisfactory rendering. Guided by what follows we might perhaps say “in one commandment.”
​

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one, has become guilty in respect to all of it.

Better, he has become guilty, i. e. liable to condemnation under an indictment which includes all the particular commandments included in the great Law. This seems at first of the nature of an ethical paradox, but practically it states a deep moral truth. If we wilfully transgress one commandment we show that in principle we sit loose to all. It is but accident, or fear, or the absence of temptation, that prevents our transgressing them also. Actual transgression in one case involves potential transgression in all. A saying of Rabbi Jochanan is recorded in the Talmud (Sabbath, fol. 70) identical with this in its terms, and including in its range what were classed as the 39 precepts of Moses. St James was urging upon devout Jews, whether they believed in Christ or no, the highest ethical teaching of their own schools. It is probable enough, that the Pharisees who misrepresented the teaching of St James in the Church of Antioch, laid stress on these words as including circumcision and the ceremonial Law, as well as the precepts which were moral and eternal (Act 15:1; Act 15:5; Act 15:24). See Introduction, ch. 3​

For he who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The two commandments are chosen as standing first in the Second Table, the fifth being classed by most Jewish writers as belonging to the First, just as in Greek and Roman ethics, duty to parents came under the head of Εὐσεβεία and Pietas, rather than under that of Justice (comp. 1Ti 5:4). This division is recognised by Josephus (Ant. iii. 6. § 6) and Philo (De Decal. i.), and falls in better than the common one with the pentad and duad grouping that pervades the Law. It is singular that in all New Testament quotations from the Second Table “Thou shalt not commit adultery” precedes “Thou shalt not kill,” Mar 10:19; Luk 18:20; Rom 13:9; and the order is made the subject of direct comment by Philo (De Decal. xii. 24). It may be inferred from this that there was, probably, a traditional order varying from that at present found in the Hebrew Pentateuch.​

So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.

The thoughts of the teacher dwell, as before (chap. Jas 1:26) and afterwards (chap. Jas 3:1-12), on sins of speech as no less tests of character than sins of act. In so doing he was echoing the words of a yet greater Teacher (Mat 12:37).​

So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.

See note on ch. Jas 1:25. The recurrence of the phrase indicates a certain fondness for the thought which it expresses. As a phrase it is peculiar to St James, but the idea is found in Joh 8:32. Verbally it presents something like a contrast to St Paul’s language as to the law “which gendereth unto bondage” (Gal 4:24), but the difference is on the surface only, St James speaking of the moral law when the will accepts it as the guide of life, St Paul of its work as reproving and condemning when the fleshly will resists it, and pre-eminently of its merely ritual and ceremonial precepts, the days and months and years of Gal 4:10.​

For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

For the judgment is merciless There is something more emphatic in the actual structure of the sentence. For the judgment shall be merciless to him that wrought not mercy. The axiom presents one aspect of the great law of divine retribution, and, like so much of St James’s teaching, is an obvious reproduction of that of the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 7:1). The reference to that discourse suggests the thought that the “law of liberty” of which St James speaks is not the law given by Moses, but the new Law, full of grace and truth, which was given by Christ. See note on Jas 2:8. On this assumption the supposed contrast with St Paul dwindles into nothing.

mercy triumphs over judgment. The verb is found in Rom 11:18. The abruptness of the original, where the maxim stands with no connecting particle, is singularly forcible, mercy glories over judgment. The law holds good universally. It is true of man’s judgment, but also of God’s, that mercy triumphs over severity, when it finds a willing object. The truth has seldom found a nobler utterance than in the familiar words which remind us that

“Earthly power doth then shew likest God’s,
When mercy seasons justice.”​

Shakespeare. Merchant of Venice, iv. 1.​

Comments taken from "The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges"

 

[listed]

"By their fruits you shall know them.. NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7.

What is the fruit of MC and myself?

"IT is not the hearers of the LAW that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justiFIED.. on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:13-16.

The problem is there are no doers of the law

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The question is not "What do you WISH" the question is "What does the Bible say"??

Right on. Why do you throw out the above passage I quoted?

 

[JohnRabbit]

The ten commandments say nothing about mercy.

Matthew 23:23(NKJV)
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

 

[listed]

When the lost person comes to Christ and is justified - fully forgiven they remain saved only so long as they do not revert back and choose loyalty to sin. But if they stumble they can ask for forgiveness - and we "have an advocate with the Father" 1John 2:1.

But if they give up -- no more fight against sin - but rather embracing and defending it and for some even promoting it and arguing against the truth of the Bible -- then they are at war against the Holy Spirit.

Who is doing that here at CF? Please prove some posters here are teaching and practicing sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Matthew 23:23(NKJV)
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

I've never seen saint Matthew's gospel in Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5.

We are talking about the ten commandments, right?

 

[listed]

BobRyan wants an answer for some verses in James chapter two. But BobRyan didn't quote the last verse in the paragraph containing the verses in which he is interested and about which he wants me to comment. So I think I'll comment after quoting the whole paragraph. Here it is.

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.​

(James 2:10-13)

The ten commandments say nothing about mercy. If one wants to be judged by the ten commandments then expect that the judgment will be merciless.

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one, has become guilty in respect to all of it.

The noun, as the italics show, is not in the Greek, but the English is a satisfactory rendering. Guided by what follows we might perhaps say “in one commandment.”
​

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one, has become guilty in respect to all of it.

Better, he has become guilty, i. e. liable to condemnation under an indictment which includes all the particular commandments included in the great Law. This seems at first of the nature of an ethical paradox, but practically it states a deep moral truth. If we wilfully transgress one commandment we show that in principle we sit loose to all. It is but accident, or fear, or the absence of temptation, that prevents our transgressing them also. Actual transgression in one case involves potential transgression in all. A saying of Rabbi Jochanan is recorded in the Talmud (Sabbath, fol. 70) identical with this in its terms, and including in its range what were classed as the 39 precepts of Moses. St James was urging upon devout Jews, whether they believed in Christ or no, the highest ethical teaching of their own schools. It is probable enough, that the Pharisees who misrepresented the teaching of St James in the Church of Antioch, laid stress on these words as including circumcision and the ceremonial Law, as well as the precepts which were moral and eternal (Act 15:1; Act 15:5; Act 15:24). See Introduction, ch. 3​

For he who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The two commandments are chosen as standing first in the Second Table, the fifth being classed by most Jewish writers as belonging to the First, just as in Greek and Roman ethics, duty to parents came under the head of Εὐσεβεία and Pietas, rather than under that of Justice (comp. 1Ti 5:4). This division is recognised by Josephus (Ant. iii. 6. § 6) and Philo (De Decal. i.), and falls in better than the common one with the pentad and duad grouping that pervades the Law. It is singular that in all New Testament quotations from the Second Table “Thou shalt not commit adultery” precedes “Thou shalt not kill,” Mar 10:19; Luk 18:20; Rom 13:9; and the order is made the subject of direct comment by Philo (De Decal. xii. 24). It may be inferred from this that there was, probably, a traditional order varying from that at present found in the Hebrew Pentateuch.​

So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.

The thoughts of the teacher dwell, as before (chap. Jas 1:26) and afterwards (chap. Jas 3:1-12), on sins of speech as no less tests of character than sins of act. In so doing he was echoing the words of a yet greater Teacher (Mat 12:37).​

So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.

See note on ch. Jas 1:25. The recurrence of the phrase indicates a certain fondness for the thought which it expresses. As a phrase it is peculiar to St James, but the idea is found in Joh 8:32. Verbally it presents something like a contrast to St Paul’s language as to the law “which gendereth unto bondage” (Gal 4:24), but the difference is on the surface only, St James speaking of the moral law when the will accepts it as the guide of life, St Paul of its work as reproving and condemning when the fleshly will resists it, and pre-eminently of its merely ritual and ceremonial precepts, the days and months and years of Gal 4:10.​

For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

For the judgment is merciless There is something more emphatic in the actual structure of the sentence. For the judgment shall be merciless to him that wrought not mercy. The axiom presents one aspect of the great law of divine retribution, and, like so much of St James’s teaching, is an obvious reproduction of that of the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 7:1). The reference to that discourse suggests the thought that the “law of liberty” of which St James speaks is not the law given by Moses, but the new Law, full of grace and truth, which was given by Christ. See note on Jas 2:8. On this assumption the supposed contrast with St Paul dwindles into nothing.

mercy triumphs over judgment. The verb is found in Rom 11:18. The abruptness of the original, where the maxim stands with no connecting particle, is singularly forcible, mercy glories over judgment. The law holds good universally. It is true of man’s judgment, but also of God’s, that mercy triumphs over severity, when it finds a willing object. The truth has seldom found a nobler utterance than in the familiar words which remind us that

“Earthly power doth then shew likest God’s,
When mercy seasons justice.”​

Shakespeare. Merchant of Venice, iv. 1.​

Comments taken from "The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges"

Definitely worth repeating and reading again. Well done.

 

[listed]

Matthew 23:23(NKJV)
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Please show any place the law grants mercy for the guilty.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Please show any place the law grants mercy for the guilty.

so i have to answer your questions before you answer mine!

ok, just read rom 13:8-10, especially verse 10!

how do you think we are afforded grace?!

 

[MoreCoffee]

BobRyan wants an answer for some verses in James chapter two. But BobRyan didn't quote the last verse in the paragraph containing the verses in which he is interested and about which he wants me to comment. So I think I'll comment after quoting the whole paragraph. Here it is.

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.​

(James 2:10-13)

The ten commandments say nothing about mercy. If one wants to be judged by the ten commandments then expect that the judgment will be merciless.

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one, has become guilty in respect to all of it.

The noun, as the italics show, is not in the Greek, but the English is a satisfactory rendering. Guided by what follows we might perhaps say “in one commandment.”
​

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one, has become guilty in respect to all of it.

Better, he has become guilty, i. e. liable to condemnation under an indictment which includes all the particular commandments included in the great Law. This seems at first of the nature of an ethical paradox, but practically it states a deep moral truth. If we wilfully transgress one commandment we show that in principle we sit loose to all. It is but accident, or fear, or the absence of temptation, that prevents our transgressing them also. Actual transgression in one case involves potential transgression in all. A saying of Rabbi Jochanan is recorded in the Talmud (Sabbath, fol. 70) identical with this in its terms, and including in its range what were classed as the 39 precepts of Moses. St James was urging upon devout Jews, whether they believed in Christ or no, the highest ethical teaching of their own schools. It is probable enough, that the Pharisees who misrepresented the teaching of St James in the Church of Antioch, laid stress on these words as including circumcision and the ceremonial Law, as well as the precepts which were moral and eternal (Act 15:1; Act 15:5; Act 15:24). See Introduction, ch. 3​

For he who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The two commandments are chosen as standing first in the Second Table, the fifth being classed by most Jewish writers as belonging to the First, just as in Greek and Roman ethics, duty to parents came under the head of Εὐσεβεία and Pietas, rather than under that of Justice (comp. 1Ti 5:4). This division is recognised by Josephus (Ant. iii. 6. § 6) and Philo (De Decal. i.), and falls in better than the common one with the pentad and duad grouping that pervades the Law. It is singular that in all New Testament quotations from the Second Table “Thou shalt not commit adultery” precedes “Thou shalt not kill,” Mar 10:19; Luk 18:20; Rom 13:9; and the order is made the subject of direct comment by Philo (De Decal. xii. 24). It may be inferred from this that there was, probably, a traditional order varying from that at present found in the Hebrew Pentateuch.​

So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.

The thoughts of the teacher dwell, as before (chap. Jas 1:26) and afterwards (chap. Jas 3:1-12), on sins of speech as no less tests of character than sins of act. In so doing he was echoing the words of a yet greater Teacher (Mat 12:37).​

So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.

See note on ch. Jas 1:25. The recurrence of the phrase indicates a certain fondness for the thought which it expresses. As a phrase it is peculiar to St James, but the idea is found in Joh 8:32. Verbally it presents something like a contrast to St Paul’s language as to the law “which gendereth unto bondage” (Gal 4:24), but the difference is on the surface only, St James speaking of the moral law when the will accepts it as the guide of life, St Paul of its work as reproving and condemning when the fleshly will resists it, and pre-eminently of its merely ritual and ceremonial precepts, the days and months and years of Gal 4:10.​

For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

For the judgment is merciless There is something more emphatic in the actual structure of the sentence. For the judgment shall be merciless to him that wrought not mercy. The axiom presents one aspect of the great law of divine retribution, and, like so much of St James’s teaching, is an obvious reproduction of that of the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 7:1). The reference to that discourse suggests the thought that the “law of liberty” of which St James speaks is not the law given by Moses, but the new Law, full of grace and truth, which was given by Christ. See note on Jas 2:8. On this assumption the supposed contrast with St Paul dwindles into nothing.

mercy triumphs over judgment. The verb is found in Rom 11:18. The abruptness of the original, where the maxim stands with no connecting particle, is singularly forcible, mercy glories over judgment. The law holds good universally. It is true of man’s judgment, but also of God’s, that mercy triumphs over severity, when it finds a willing object. The truth has seldom found a nobler utterance than in the familiar words which remind us that

“Earthly power doth then shew likest God’s,
When mercy seasons justice.”​

Shakespeare. Merchant of Venice, iv. 1.​

Comments taken from "The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges"

You liked BobRyan's post after I had already provided a commentary on the passage in which he was interested. Did you read my post? If not I've quoted it above. Take the time to read it if you like.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You know if you think about what James said.... if you break ONE you are SEEN as breaking ALL the commandments and if we look at Jesus who says even hating your brother is akin to murder and lust is adultery then if one hates or lusts then one has essentially broken the Sabbath using this logic. The only way around it all is to not put yourself under the commandments and instead putting yourself in love under Jesus by faith.

 

[JohnRabbit]

You liked BobRyan's post after I had already provided a commentary on the passage in which he was interested. Did you read my post? If not I've quoted it above. Take the time to read it if you like.

i have read what you posted!

 

[JohnRabbit]

You know if you think about what James said.... if you break ONE you are SEEN as breaking ALL the commandments and if we look at Jesus who says even hating your brother is akin to murder and lust is adultery then if one hates or lusts then one has essentially broken the Sabbath using this logic. The only way around it all is to not put yourself under the commandments and instead putting yourself in love under Jesus by faith.

the only way to put it as you do is not to believe that the law expresses the way in which the Lord wants us to walk!

 

[listed]

so i have to answer your questions before you answer mine!

ok, just read rom 13:8-10, especially verse 10!

how do you think we are afforded grace?!

This response does not meet the needs of my request.

 

[Sophrosyne]

the only way to put it as you do is not to believe that the law expresses the way in which the Lord wants us to walk!

Actually I believe that the Lord's appointed apostle to the Gentiles named Paul tells us the way to walk in the Lord which is something that seemingly evades your train of logic entirely.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Actually I believe that the Lord's appointed apostle to the Gentiles named Paul tells us the way to walk in the Lord which is something that seemingly evades your train of logic entirely.

so you're telling me that the way paul taught is different than that shown in the old testament scriptures?

 

[mmksparbud]

In a reply to mmksparbud I wrote:

BobRyan replied:

Do you expect to be judged by God on the basis of your conformity to the ten commandments and have your eternal life or eternal punishment decided on the basis of your conformity to the ten commandments?

God can judge away---I have the assurance that Christ's blood has cleansed me "from all unrighteousness" as He promised. As long as we stand forgiven by that loving grace, it doesn't matter! His blood cleanses, that's what He died for---hadn't you heard?!! His commandments teach me how to love Him and mankind, so why are they a problem for you? My husband has said what it means to Him to be loved--what's important to him, If I ignore his needs, then I am thinking of myself and not him. No different with God and His commandments--they tell me what is important to God, the difference is--they are for my own good and happiness also, not just what makes Him happy. It's like you hate them--as long as you feel like that then you are fighting against the love of God.

 

[NannaNae]

ok .. that is just about enough of all the laws of grace for me.

I would like to know why Paul speaks to people about the lawless.. we are to judge each other by the law. not the world , they are lost and there is no measure to use for what they promote .

now Pauls says when talking to the churches .

1Ti 1:6
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1Ti 1:7
Desiring to be teachers of the law ( seems law of 'grace' too) ; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

1Ti 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;( HE IS TALKING TO THE CHURCH)
1Ti 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1Ti 1:12
¶
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1Ti 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

1Ti 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


He knows that the law is good and vain men use it wrongly.
and the righteous will use it righteously.

REV
Rev 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

you all can proceed

 

[listed]

so you're telling me that the way paul taught is different than that shown in the old testament scriptures?

Without a doubt. So did Jesus according to John.

 

[listed]

God can judge away---I have the assurance that Christ's blood has cleansed me "from all unrighteousness" as He promised. As long as we stand forgiven by that loving grace, it doesn't matter! His blood cleanses, that's what He died for---hadn't you heard?!! His commandments teach me how to love Him and mankind, so why are they a problem for you? My husband has said what it means to Him to be loved--what's important to him, If I ignore his needs, then I am thinking of myself and not him. No different with God and His commandments--they tell me what is important to God, the difference is--they are for my own good and happiness also, not just what makes Him happy. It's like you hate them--as long as you feel like that then you are fighting against the love of God.

Is this a gave it a good try bit? You seem not to realize we have a different covenant.