Christianity and Beer

[createdtoworship]

But you would agree that serving low alcohol wine (i.e. diluting it with water) would be logical to serve to your dinner guests after they have already gone through your good stuff and can't tell the difference anymore? Certainly the wine Jesus served up was at least as strong as what they had been drinking. Diluted wine is not considered choice wine by any standard. And I'm sure that in that day, cheaper wine was probably lower alcohol percentage (i.e. diluted), which makes sense. That was my point.

It makes sense for a non christian party, not for one the Lord is putting on. No, not at all. And yes, actually 25-33 % wine to water was the standard in this day. So diluting it apparently was not a problem in the day and age at hand.

and the sentence before, in that last quote was actually where I got this information (one of many)

"According to one statement, two parts,b according to another, three parts, of water were to be added to the wine.c Various vintages are mentioned: among them a red wine of Saron, and a black wine. Spiced wine was made with honey and pepper. Another mixture, chiefly used for invalids, consisted of old wine, water, and balsam; yet another was ‘wine of myrrh;’d we also read of a wine in which capers had been soaked. To these we should add wine spiced, either with pepper, or with absinth; and what is described as vinegar, a cooling drink made either of grapes that had not ripened, or of the lees. Besides these, palm-wine was also in use. Of foreign drinks, we read of wine from Ammon, and from the province Asia, the latter a kind of ‘must’ boiled down. Wine in ice came from the Lebanon; a certain kind of vinegar from Idumæa; beer from Media and Babylon; a barley-wine (zythos) from Egypt. Finally, we ought to mention Palestinian apple-cider,e and the juice of other fruits. If we adopt the rendering of some, even liqueurs were known and used.” "

Edersheim life and times of the Messiah

 

[createdtoworship]

I'll tell you this, I won't ride my Harley (or drive anything) after even one beer.

For someone about 150 pounds, two drinks in two hours would probably make you legally drunk (.08 blood alcohol level).

 

[Radagast]

"According to one statement, two parts,b according to another, three parts, of water were to be added to the wine

Jesus would have made full-strength wine, and the "master of the banquet" would have arranged to have it diluted to about the strength of light beer.

Both pagan sources and Revelation 14:10 indicate that drinking undiluted wine was unusual in those days. However, people would have drunk the diluted wine pretty freely.

 

[Radagast]

For someone about 150 pounds, two drinks in two hours would probably make you legally drunk (.08 blood alcohol level).

Not really. In adults, the liver eliminates alcohol at the rate of about one standard drink per hour.

 

[createdtoworship]

Not really. In adults, the liver eliminates alcohol at the rate of about one standard drink per hour.

that is true.

but alcohol has been found to cause cancer in women up to 15% greater risk of breast cancer.

Featured Article

And note that moderate drinking according to UC Berkley wellness guides is
1-2 drinks - A DAY. (for many countries)

more than that they say impairs judgement and poses health risks.

Billions of dollars a year treat about 10% of america that can't seem to be a moderate drinker.

definition of moderate drinker here:

Should You Drink? How Much?

 

[createdtoworship]

they would have to drink 8 drinks an hour to get drunk off of watered down wine.

Thats a lot ,

Especially at a social event.

Have to camp out at the wine basins!

Which is not polite for ancient Jewish weddings!

Most likely people were not drunk at the wedding feast where Jesus created wine for them.

Although people DID get drunk at weddings in that day!

This is why the Bible says this:

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit"
Ephesians 5:18

 

[createdtoworship]

This is a violation of moderate drinking rules (per Federal Dietary Guidlines):

CDC - Frequently Asked Questions - Alcohol

secondly here is a quote from a link that states that at the wedding at cana when they had "well drunk" may infact mean something different than you think

"The comment in question was not made in reference to that particular party, but to the general practice among those who hold feasts: "Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine . . ." (John 2:10, RSV). This remark, as many commentators recognize, forms parts of the stock in trade of a hired banquet master, rather than an actual description of the state of intoxication at a particular party.24

Another important consideration is the fact that the Greek verb methusko can mean "to drink freely" without any implication of intoxication. In his article on this verb in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Herbert Preisker observes that "methuo and methuskomai are mostly used literally in the NT for ‘to be drunk’ and ‘to get drunk.’ Methuskomai is used with no ethical or religious judgment in John 2:10 in connection with the rule that the poorer wine is served only when the guests have drunk well."25

The Parkhurst Greek lexicon cites the Septuagint usage of the methuo word group in Old Testament passages as illustrative of the meaning "to drink freely": "Methuo . . . denotes in general to drink wine or strong drink more freely than usual, and that whether to drunkenness or not. Pass[ively] to drink freely and to cheerfulness, though not to drunkenness . . . John 2:10. And in this sense the verb is plainly used by the LXX (i.e. Septuagint), Gen 43:34; Cant 5:1; and also, I think, in Gen 9:21."26 The latter meaning is respected by the Revised Standard Version which renders it more accurately "when men have drunk freely."


from
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/4.html

 

[MountainofGod1]

no, it destroys the perception of Jesus that some want to see. Not the truth, which the bible is clear he was called a drunkard, and a companion of tax collectors and prostitutes. Why would these two be true and the third false? All you have is a relative likelihood that he did or didn't drink alcoholic wine, and since it was certainly not the only occasion that they drank wine, that's thin ice

 

[createdtoworship]

no, it destroys the perception of Jesus that some want to see. Not the truth, which the bible is clear he was called a drunkard, and a companion of tax collectors and prostitutes. Why would these two be true and the third false? All you have is a relative likelihood that he did or didn't drink alcoholic wine, and since it was certainly not the only occasion that they drank wine, that's thin ice

I don't hold to the view that Jesus created grape juice. But I also don't hold the view that Jesus was a drunkard, like His enemies did. Probably because of the wedding at cana was Jesus described as a drunkard. Why? Because He put wine in ceremonial pots that were sacred and most likely did this all in a church building where the pots were located? I would call Him a drunkard too, just for that fact. But He is not. Actually the wine was watered down 1/3 to 1/4 th alcohol. They would need 8 glasses an hour to be legally wasted by this stuff.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I don't hold to the view that Jesus created grape juice. But I also don't hold the view that Jesus was a drunkard, like His enemies did. Probably because of the wedding at cana was Jesus described as a drunkard. Why? Because He put wine in ceremonial pots that were sacred and most likely did this all in a church building where the pots were located? I would call Him a drunkard too, just for that fact. But He is not. Actually the wine was watered down 1/3 to 1/4 th alcohol. They would need 8 glasses an hour to be legally wasted by this stuff.

if it was watered down to 1/3 or 1/4 the alcohol, that would be around 3 or 4% (if we are talking about wine) If you had 8 servings of that in an hour you would be trashed (wayyyy beyond the legal limit we know today). That would be like 8 beers almost.

 

[MountainofGod1]

I don't hold to the view that Jesus created grape juice. But I also don't hold the view that Jesus was a drunkard, like His enemies did. Probably because of the wedding at cana was Jesus described as a drunkard. Why? Because He put wine in ceremonial pots that were sacred and most likely did this all in a church building where the pots were located? I would call Him a drunkard too, just for that fact. But He is not. Actually the wine was watered down 1/3 to 1/4 th alcohol. They would need 8 glasses an hour to be legally wasted by this stuff.

You don't know the wine was watered down. You also don't know the definition of drunkard. It has nothing to do with the percentage of alcohol in the wine. If it does, feel free to point it out (in scripture). There is no definition of drunkard, you are applying the modern definition to an ancient text with a ton of missing information.

we don't need to see what the federal government thinks, its completely irrelevant.

 

[Peripatetic]

Jesus was likely called a drunkard because he drank wine in moderation (without getting drunk), but legalistic Jews considered it a black and white issue: if you drank alcohol and attended parties, you were a drunkard.

Many share the same view today about alcohol, dancing, secular music, watching TV, playing the lottery, and many other activities. Any one of them can be sinful if misused, and some can be addictive to people with such a predisposition. However, they are a healthy part of many Christians' balanced lives.

Let's look at Matthew 11:18-19 one more time:

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

The first two sentences point out misconceptions about Jesus and John because they represented the two ends of the perceived liberal/conservative spectrum of the times. But the last sentence is key: wisdom is proved right by her deeds. If a person were to look closely at Jesus' life, they would see that drinking wine didn't cause him to stumble, spiral into sin, or negatively affect his deeds.

When reflecting on our own lifestyles, we should consider the same questions. Drinking, shopping, watching TV, etc. should be viewed in the context of how it affects our deeds and how we spend our time. If I find it hard to stop after one drink, then alcohol may be a stumbling block. If I'm driving myself into debt because I'm rarely content with what I have, shopping may be a stumbling block. If I can't find time to read the Bible or play with my kids, but I watch 3 hours of TV every night, TV may be a stumbling block. But I shouldn't project all of those as sinful for everyone.

For one person, a drink with dinner followed by watching an NCAA basketball game (with $5 March Madness office pool bracket) is an evening of sinful drunkenness, secular TV, and gambling. For another, it is a part of a balanced Christian Saturday that may also include Bible Study, volunteering, and family time.

 

[Incariol]

Or the poet Eubulus: "Three bowls do I mix for the temperate: one to health, which they empty first, the second to love and pleasure, the third to sleep. When this bowl is drunk up, wise guests go home. The fourth bowl is ours no longer, but belongs to violence; the fifth to uproar, the sixth to drunken revel, the seventh to black eyes, the eight is the policeman's, the ninth belong to biliousness, and the tenth to madness and hurling the furniture."

So yeah. That's kind of my point. Drunkenness definitely existed in antiquity.

The other thing to be noted about the wedding at Cana is the guests weren't in charge of their own alcohol: someone else (the "master of the banquet") was in charge of making sure that the guests only got a sensible amount of wine.

Theoretically anyways.

 

[Incariol]

lot did, same thing. Noah probably would have too, if he was wasted. Then had to build a bigger boat.

*stares*

Have you ever been drunk in your life? Because I assure you, it does not result in a weird desire for incest.

 

[Dreamer28]

Drinking a beer or two is fine, but drinking in excess is not. And it says in the Bible to drink when all hope is gone. So it's ok to drink a little.

 

[MountainofGod1]

of course we always have hope though. The interesting part of these threads is people who get culture mixed up with religion. Being a mennonite, my culture despises alcohol. This is surprising, even though Mennonites were revivalists over the past few hundred years, I've heard that they were beer makers for the tzars before that

so maybe they saw the damage beer does when a tzar drinks it, and wanted to distance from it. A very noble thing. But extremes lead to evil, when your natural desire burns for something a little is usually not a bad thing. If you don't give into your desires while working the ground, (don't muzzle an ox) its bad

 

[JCFantasy23]

I drink every once in awhile and don't see it anything wrong with it. Also see nothing forbidding this in the bible. If I was near an alcoholic trying to recover, wouldn't start guzzling in front of them though, that'd just be mean See that more related to causing brothers to stumble passage of scripture.

 

[TheDag]

I don't hold to the view that Jesus created grape juice. But I also don't hold the view that Jesus was a drunkard, like His enemies did. Probably because of the wedding at cana was Jesus described as a drunkard. Why? Because He put wine in ceremonial pots that were sacred and most likely did this all in a church building where the pots were located? I would call Him a drunkard too, just for that fact. But He is not. Actually the wine was watered down 1/3 to 1/4 th alcohol. They would need 8 glasses an hour to be legally wasted by this stuff.

No Jesus was not called a drunkard because of the wedding at Cana. that was in Jesus words "not his time". It was because of the time he spent at peoples houses. Jewish custom involved providing alcholic drink. just becaue Jesus was accused of being a drunkard does not mean he was drunk.

It makes sense for a non christian party, not for one the Lord is putting on.

Jesus was not the one putting this party on. Mary approached Jesus and asked him to help out. Jesus had no obligation that is clear from the story.

 

[Angelfrog]

Jesus was likely called a drunkard because he drank wine in moderation (without getting drunk), but legalistic Jews considered it a black and white issue: if you drank alcohol and attended parties, you were a drunkard.

Many share the same view today about alcohol, dancing, secular music, watching TV, playing the lottery, and many other activities. Any one of them can be sinful if misused, and some can be addictive to people with such a predisposition. However, they are a healthy part of many Christians' balanced lives.

Let's look at Matthew 11:18-19 one more time:



The first two sentences point out misconceptions about Jesus and John because they represented the two ends of the perceived liberal/conservative spectrum of the times. But the last sentence is key: wisdom is proved right by her deeds. If a person were to look closely at Jesus' life, they would see that drinking wine didn't cause him to stumble, spiral into sin, or negatively affect his deeds.

When reflecting on our own lifestyles, we should consider the same questions. Drinking, shopping, watching TV, etc. should be viewed in the context of how it affects our deeds and how we spend our time. If I find it hard to stop after one drink, then alcohol may be a stumbling block. If I'm driving myself into debt because I'm rarely content with what I have, shopping may be a stumbling block. If I can't find time to read the Bible or play with my kids, but I watch 3 hours of TV every night, TV may be a stumbling block. But I shouldn't project all of those as sinful for everyone.

For one person, a drink with dinner followed by watching an NCAA basketball game (with $5 March Madness office pool bracket) is an evening of sinful drunkenness, secular TV, and gambling. For another, it is a part of a balanced Christian Saturday that may also include Bible Study, volunteering, and family time.

Everything he said!

 

[createdtoworship]

*stares*

Have you ever been drunk in your life? Because I assure you, it does not result in a weird desire for incest.

nope