Christianity and Beer

[MountainofGod1]

He could obviously hold his booze

 

[TheDag]

so again, Jesus got everyone wasted. Then commands not to be drunk later on in the Bible?

and once again this is you reading into what I've said what you want to see rather than reading what I said.

Jesus did not make anyone get drunk. Same as the person in the bottle shop doesn't make you get drunk. Other people are not accountable for your actions. however when the bible describes people as being drunk and not sober of mind then to argue that alcohol basically had no effect and was non-alcoholic just makes no sense.

so saying that Jesus got every one wasted at the wedding at cana is really any better?

no that would not be better but that is not what I said that is just you putting words into my mouth to make your argument sound reasonable.

There is no way you could put a reasonable argument together to claim this is my position.
Feel free to tell me then why Noah only found out later that one of his sons had made fun of him and told others that he was drunk and naked? Why did Noah's other son have to cover him up? Why did Noah not just cover himself? When you look at details of the story it really makes no sense that alcohol could not get you drunk.

 

[Incariol]

May seem like a stupid question, but I'm just curious how some of you view drinking beer and being a Christian.

I'm 24 year old, and occasionally I enjoy have a beer or two. I don't let it get out of hand, but if my friends and I go out, I will usually have one or two. And sometimes I have one before bed to unwind if I'm gonig through a stressful time (although that is very very rare, but I had a couple last night because I'm going through a lot of stress at the moment with school and exams and whatnot).

My dad is a devout member and preacher in the Church of Christ. And the Church of Christ is a very, very traditional church. No instruments in the church, no smoking, drinking or anything like that. I now go to a non-denominational church because I have a hard time leaving church feeling scared (like I did when I went to the church of christ...a lot of lessons about "if you do this, you're going to hell" type stuff...not saying it's like that everywhere, but my Dad gives those types of sermons) but I opted to go to a non-denominational church where I walk out feeling inspired, uplifted and just feel great in general.

I view myself as a good Christian, but I still, to this day, have not gotten a real answer whether Beer is a bad thing or not. I've always assumed that it's OK if I have one or two here and there.

So what do you all think?

Christ's first miracle was creating a lot more wine for a wedding in which the party had already drunk through their entire stock, thus facilitating even more drunkenness. I think you're fine.

 

[createdtoworship]

and once again this is you reading into what I've said what you want to see rather than reading what I said.

Jesus did not make anyone get drunk. Same as the person in the bottle shop doesn't make you get drunk. Other people are not accountable for your actions. however when the bible describes people as being drunk and not sober of mind then to argue that alcohol basically had no effect and was non-alcoholic just makes no sense.


no that would not be better but that is not what I said that is just you putting words into my mouth to make your argument sound reasonable.

There is no way you could put a reasonable argument together to claim this is my position.
Feel free to tell me then why Noah only found out later that one of his sons had made fun of him and told others that he was drunk and naked? Why did Noah's other son have to cover him up? Why did Noah not just cover himself? When you look at details of the story it really makes no sense that alcohol could not get you drunk.

I believe even the Jewish mishna makes reference to being drunk. But Christ does not make mention of being drunk and even at the wedding at cana there is no proof that Christ made a stronger wine at the end than was served at the beginning. He could have simply made it taste better or used better ingredients. He is God is He not? And btw I wasn't saying that you believe Christ got everyone drunk. But creating strong wine for people to drink would be considered sinful if The Bible itself mentions not to be drunk. Why not create cigarettes too. Those are legal. Noah was in sin when He got drunk. I believe He knocked up his daughters in the same situation. So that is not a clear comparison of drinking in the Bible. Because one man was drunk, now are all men to be drunk?

 

[createdtoworship]

Christ's first miracle was creating a lot more wine for a wedding in which the party had already drunk through their entire stock, thus facilitating even more drunkenness. I think you're fine.

Christ would not facilitate drunkenness and then command it not to be in the same Holy Scriptures.

 

[Incariol]

Christ would not facilitate drunkenness and then command it not to be in the same Holy Scriptures.

Ok? Well, too bad he did precisely that, then.

 

[TheDag]

I believe even the Jewish mishna makes reference to being drunk.

yet you have been arguing in support of the claim that wine in biblical times could not get you drunk!

But Christ does not make mention of being drunk

and nobody claimed this so why bring it up????

and even at the wedding at cana there is no proof that Christ made a stronger wine at the end than was served at the beginning.

nobody claimed this either that I remember.

He could have simply made it taste better or used better ingredients.

yes this is what people have claimed.

He is God is He not? And btw I wasn't saying that you believe Christ got everyone drunk. But creating strong wine for people to drink would be considered sinful if The Bible itself mentions not to be drunk. Why not create cigarettes too. Those are legal. Noah was in sin when He got drunk. I believe He knocked up his daughters in the same situation. So that is not a clear comparison of drinking in the Bible. Because one man was drunk, now are all men to be drunk?

Are you trolling? you seem to be deliberately missing the point. You are asking if I am saying because one man got drunk that everybody is supposed to get drunk. That is so far missing the point it really must be deliberate. i have never once condoned drunkeness. you are the one trying to suggest I do. So stop with the false accusations. If you wish to discuss things then discuss what is being said not what you would like me to say so you can sound knowledgable.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do you do for God.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

alcohol is never the "best." actually it was the vintage that was high quality. There were many types of wines from different ingredients. Only the best quality ingredients etc was the "best"

again edersheim quotes history:

Various vintages are mentioned: among them a red wine of Saron, and a black wine. Spiced wine was made with honey and pepper. Another mixture, chiefly used for invalids, consisted of old wine, water, and balsam; yet another was ‘wine of myrrh;’d we also read of a wine in which capers had been soaked. To these we should add wine spiced, either with pepper, or with absinth; and what is described as vinegar, a cooling drink made either of grapes that had not ripened, or of the lees. Besides these, palm-wine was also in use. Of foreign drinks, we read of wine from Ammon, and from the province Asia, the latter a kind of ‘must’ boiled down. Wine in ice came from the Lebanon; a certain kind of vinegar from Idumæa; beer from Media and Babylon; a barley-wine (zythos) from Egypt. Finally, we ought to mention Palestinian apple-cider,e and the juice of other fruits. If we adopt the rendering of some, even liqueurs were known and used.”

But you would agree that serving low alcohol wine (i.e. diluting it with water) would be logical to serve to your dinner guests after they have already gone through your good stuff and can't tell the difference anymore? Certainly the wine Jesus served up was at least as strong as what they had been drinking. Diluted wine is not considered choice wine by any standard. And I'm sure that in that day, cheaper wine was probably lower alcohol percentage (i.e. diluted), which makes sense. That was my point.

 

[JoeyArnold]

But you would agree that serving low alcohol wine (i.e. diluting it with water) would be logical to serve to your dinner guests after they have already gone through your good stuff and can't tell the difference anymore? Certainly the wine Jesus served up was at least as strong as what they had been drinking. Diluted wine is not considered choice wine by any standard. And I'm sure that in that day, cheaper wine was probably lower alcohol percentage (i.e. diluted), which makes sense. That was my point.

The wine Christ created could have been anything.

 

[Radagast]

The wine Christ created could have been anything.

However, given that the Bible calls it wine, it was probably... wine.

That is to say, grape juice fermented by yeast (probably by the yeast which grows naturally on the grapes), and having about 12% alcohol.

We know what "wine" is, because the same kind of fermentation happens today, and also because the ancient Greeks wrote rather a lot about wine.

Jesus made about 600 litres (150 gallons) of this wine, by my calculation.

In the miracle, the "master of the banquet" (John 2:9) would have been in charge of mixing the wine with water, depending on the mood of the partygoers -- a bit more wine if things were too quiet, a bit more water if they were too rowdy. At least, that was how the Greeks did it, and Palestine had been occupied by the Greeks for centuries. Furthermore, the Graeco-Roman terminology used suggests a Greek-style feast (though with Jewish-style ritual washing beforehand).

 

[Incariol]

Anyone absurd enough to think ancient wine wasn't alcoholic like it is today seriously needs to read some Cicero and Socrates and other historical sources.

 

[Radagast]

Anyone absurd enough to think ancient wine wasn't alcoholic like it is today seriously needs to read some Cicero and Socrates and other historical sources.

Or the poet Eubulus: "Three bowls do I mix for the temperate: one to health, which they empty first, the second to love and pleasure, the third to sleep. When this bowl is drunk up, wise guests go home. The fourth bowl is ours no longer, but belongs to violence; the fifth to uproar, the sixth to drunken revel, the seventh to black eyes, the eight is the policeman's, the ninth belong to biliousness, and the tenth to madness and hurling the furniture."

The other thing to be noted about the wedding at Cana is the guests weren't in charge of their own alcohol: someone else (the "master of the banquet") was in charge of making sure that the guests only got a sensible amount of wine.

 

[Timothew]

Noah was in sin when He got drunk. I believe He knocked up his daughters in the same situation.

Noah knocked up his daughters? Are you sure?

 

[Radagast]

Noah knocked up his daughters? Are you sure?

I suspect gradyll is thinking of Lot (Genesis 19:36).

Lot got more than pleasantly happy -- he got blind drunk. Of course, (1) he was drinking alone, (2) he was drinking to forget a disaster, and (3) the people he was with weren't slowing him down, they were encouraging him to drink to excess. All three of those are bad ways to use alcohol.

 

[Timothew]

I suspect gradyll is thinking of Lot (Genesis 19:36).

That reminds me of a riddle:
How many of each type of animal did Moses bring on the ark with him?

 

[Radagast]

That reminds me of a riddle:
How many of each type of animal did Moses bring on the ark with him?

Oh, very good. Moses was indeed in an ark (the Hebrew word tebah is used in Exodus 2:3), but he wasn't in there with any animals.

 

[JoeyArnold]

However, given that the Bible calls it wine, it was probably... wine.

That is to say, grape juice fermented by yeast (probably by the yeast which grows naturally on the grapes), and having about 12% alcohol.

We know what "wine" is, because the same kind of fermentation happens today, and also because the ancient Greeks wrote rather a lot about wine.

Jesus made about 600 litres (150 gallons) of this wine, by my calculation.

In the miracle, the "master of the banquet" (John 2:9) would have been in charge of mixing the wine with water, depending on the mood of the partygoers -- a bit more wine if things were too quiet, a bit more water if they were too rowdy. At least, that was how the Greeks did it, and Palestine had been occupied by the Greeks for centuries. Furthermore, the Graeco-Roman terminology used suggests a Greek-style feast (though with Jewish-style ritual washing beforehand).

The wine Christ made could have been anything. Most likely wine but it could have been a Heavenly drink that is like wine but is different & safer & better & cooler.

 

[tangled]

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

 

[JoeyArnold]

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Agreed: Ephesians 5:18. The Bible says we are not to be drunk with wine. It doesn't say we can't drink at all, but it does say we are to be above approach.