Ceremonial Law like circumcision -- vs moral law of TEN Comm with Sabbath for ALL

[BobRyan]

In my opinion you are getting in a hopeless muddle here. On the one hand you resolutely quote the commandments must be obeyed,

And you agree that bowing down to images would be a "bad thing" or are you claiming you are "neutral" on that and only I know about it?

I
but on the other, christians can be exempt as they may not be conscious of sin concerning them.

IT is God who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" , not me.

Could you respond to the following please:
Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian as they may have a different consciousness of sin to you? How about continuous adultery, or stealing, would you accept such people as fellow believers? How does this all fit in with ''you must obey the ten commandments''?

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I break God's Sabbath Commandment?" I would always say "no"
If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I bow down before images in worship service and pray to those they represent and promise to serve them?" I would always say "no".

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I as a protestant be in favor of tormenting or killing Catholics?" I would always say "no".

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I as a Catholic be in favor of tormenting or killing Protestants as heretics"? -- I would always say "No"

I don't change that answer based on what they "feel good about". I never say "if you feel good about doing something the Bible says not to do - then it must be ok .. "

 

[michael21]

Did you agree that God convicts the "World" of sin and righteousness and judgment and not "just believers"??



Your profile says you are a Christian - for all I know you are a Catholic Christian.



The Bible says the Ten having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 applies to the world - and esp to Christians.

The Bible says God the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 (not just the saved)

The Bible says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The Bible says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12



Nope. I keep quoting it on almost every page of the thread - because it matters.

James 4:17 also matters
John 9:41 also matters



That is how many protestants view the Catholic position on prayers to the dead and bowing down to images.

That is how the Baptists view the Methodist and Presbyterian idea of baptizing infants instead of believers.

That is how certain Catholic authorities view the Protestant rejection of papal infallibility by Protestants, and the rejection by Protestants of Catholic Mass claims to "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" in the mass.

When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

So in your view, unbelievers are convicted sin is not believing in Jesus, they know righteousness is available because Jesus is going to the Father, and they know the prince of this world now stands condemned? Of course, unbelievers do not have the law in their hearts and minds do they, so your verse is non applicable.
Not sure why you keep quoting 1Cor7:19, for according to your beliefs christians may not obey commandments and still be saved as they might not be conscious of sin. So, in your belief saints might not keep the commandments of God of course

 

[michael21]

And you agree that bowing down to images would be a "bad thing" or are you claiming you are "neutral" on that and only I know about it?



IT is God who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" , not me.



If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I break God's Sabbath Commandment?" I would always say "no"
If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I bow down before images in worship service and pray to those they represent and promise to serve them?" I would always say "no".

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I as a protestant be in favor of tormenting or killing Catholics?" I would always say "no".

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I as a Catholic be in favor of tormenting or killing Protestants as heretics"? -- I would always say "No"

I don't change that answer based on what they "feel good about". I never say "if you feel good about doing something the Bible says not to do - then it must be ok .. "

I think you should address the point(unlikely I know)
Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian as they may have a different consciousness of sin to you? How about continuous adultery, or stealing, would you accept such people as fellow believers? How does this all fit in with ''you must obey the ten commandments''?

 

[BobRyan]

When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

It says when the Holy Spirt comes which Jesus said happened at His ascension.

So in your view, unbelievers are convicted

as I showed you in Romans 1 - Paul says even the pagans are convicted.

But in Roman 2 - Paul points to non-Christians having no Bible at all yet having the new Covenant condition of the Law written on the heart - as I already showed you as well.

So, in your belief saints might not keep the commandments of God of course

There are saved Christians in every denomination - James 4:17 accounts for that. John 9:41 accounts for that.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, We see: your sin remaineth.

applied to non-Christian Jews.

 

[michael21]

It says when the Holy Spirt comes which Jesus said happened at His ascension.



as I showed you in Romans 1 - Paul says even the pagans are convicted.

But in Roman 2 - Paul points to non-Christians having no Bible at all yet having the new Covenant condition of the Law written on the heart - as I already showed you as well.




There are saved Christians in every denomination - James 4:17 accounts for that. John 9:41 accounts for that.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, We see: your sin remaineth.

applied to non-Christian Jews.

Point 1 we agree
point 2 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts
So in your view the law is written on the heart and mind of the heathen and they obey it? Are you sure about that? The law is written on the mind and placed on the heart of those in the new covenant, not those outside of it.

However, as you quote, believers can obey the law without ever having read a bible. Amen.
There are saved christians in all denominations, agreed,

 

[BobRyan]

I think you should address the point(unlikely I know)
Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian

I just answered the point this way

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I as a protestant be in favor of tormenting or killing Catholics?" I would always say "no".

If someone asks me "Hey Bob should I as a Catholic be in favor of tormenting or killing Protestants as heretics"? -- I would always say "No"

I don't change that answer based on what they "feel good about". I never say "if you feel good about doing something the Bible says not to do - then it must be ok .. "

I
as they may have a different consciousness of sin to you? How about continuous adultery, or stealing, would you accept such people as fellow believers? How does this all fit in with ''you must obey the ten commandments''?

As I said in the post you are responding to while ignoring my response - I always say I am happy to point to what God says - the right thing to do - no matter what problem the other person has with what God said.

Your question is "yes well fine -- but how do you JUDGE that person" . Your response is not "would you tell the difference between right and wrong" your question is always "ignoring all that Bob - how would you JUDGE them"?

And I already answered that judgment inside the church is addressed in 1 Cor 5 and Matt 18 - but not outside.

 

[michael21]

I just answered the point this way





As I said in the post you are responding to while ignoring my response - I always say I am happy to point to what God says - the right thing to do - no matter what problem the other person has with what God said.

Your question is "yes well fine -- but how do you JUDGE that person" . Your response is not "would you tell the difference between right and wrong" your question is always "ignoring all that Bob - how would you JUDGE them"?

And I already answered that judgment inside the church is addressed in 1 Cor 5 and Matt 18 - but not outside.

Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian as they may have a different consciousness of sin to you? How about continuous adultery, or stealing, would you accept such people as fellow believers? How does this all fit in with ''you must obey the ten commandments''?

You havent addressed the above at all. According to your belief, believers may not be conscious of sin, therefore, they can break the Ten Commandments and remain saved as they have no consciousness of sin concerning them. But then you relentlessly quote 1Cor7:19, and the saints keep the commandments of God. A complete contradiction I'm afraid, as you clearly believe the saints/saved can break the commandments as they may have no consciousness of sin in doing so. I am getting a bit weary frankly with you being (obviously) unable to address your contradictions

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You keep referring to "the moral law", which is a term invented to make man-made confessions work, but is not found in the Bible. Therefore, you are standing upon a work of fiction. It is built upon sand, instead of the Word of God. Please show us the scripture containing the term "the moral law".If you cannot produce it, quit using it as your source of truth, and quit expecting us to accept it as a source of truth. .

You may want to dig a little deeper in God's Word as all of God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures are "moral laws" of right doing to both God and our fellow man.

GREEK

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2239
ἦθος (ēthos | ay'-thos)
Derivation: a strengthened form of G1485;
Strong's: usage, i.e. (plural) moral habits

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G2239
G2239 — ἦθος ᾔθεος (ἐθους), τό (akin to ἔθος, probably from ἘΩ, whence ἧμαι, έ῾ζω (cf. Vanicek, p. 379)); custom, usage (cf. German Sitzen,Sitte); plural τά ἤθη morals, character (Latinmores) 1Co 15:33 from Menander; cf. Menander fragment, Meineke edition, p. 75. (Sir. 20:26 (25); 4 Macc. 1:29; 2:7, 21.)

Combined Word Definitions, BDB & Thayer - G2239
Original: ἦθος Transliteration: Ethos Phonetic: ay’-thos
Definition: 1. a customary abode, dwelling place, haunt, customary state 2. custom, usage, morals, character

.................

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF 1 CORINTHIAN 15:33

English Standard Version
Do not be deceived: Bad company ruins good morals.

King James 2000 Bible
Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.

New Heart English Bible
Do not be deceived. "Bad company corrupts good morals.

World English Bible
Don't be deceived! "Evil companionships corrupt good morals.


Berean Literal Bible
Do not be misled: "Bad companionships corrupt good morals.

New American Standard Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

NASB 1995
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

NASB 1977
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

Amplified Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

Christian Standard Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

American Standard Version
Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

NET Bible
Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals.

New Heart English Bible
Do not be deceived. "Bad company corrupts good morals.

Weymouth New Testament
Do not deceive yourselves: "Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

World English Bible
Don't be deceived! "Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

....................

HEBREW

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.< tsedeq RIGHT DOING - MORAL>

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Righteousness H6664; צדק tsedeq; tseh'-dek; From H6663; the right, natural, MORAL or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is defined as the standard of MORAL RIGHT in the Hebrew which God’s Word defines as ALL GOD’S COMMANDMENTS. This of course includes God’s 4th commandment which is one of God’s 10 commandments written with the finger of God.

The opposite of righteousness is unrighteousness as shown in this scripture here…

1 JOHN 5:17-18 [17] ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN: and there is a sin not to death. [18], WE KNOW THAT WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in HEBREW (H5766) עול עול עולה עולה עלה ;‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh From H5765; MORAL EVIL: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in GREEK (G93) ἀδικία; adikia (legal) injustice (properly the quality, by implication the act); MORAL WRONGFULNESS of charater, life or act: - iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.

ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (ἀδικία Moral wrongfulness) IS SIN which is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments. UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is the opposite of RIGHTEOUSNESS and ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is SIN *1 JOHN 5:17 and SIN is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 then RIGHTEOUSNESS is OBEDIENCE to God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) as is why it is written;

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE *RIGHTEOUSNESS.<Moral Right Doing>

ROMANS 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does GOOD (good G5544) no, not one.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G5544
χρηστότης; chrēstotēs From G5543; usefulness, that is, MORAL EXCELLENCE in character or demeanor: - gentleness, good (-ness), kindness.

……………..

Christian bible dictionary definitions agree with the Hebrew and Greek scriptures shown above...

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, 1828
MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]

1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness. Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue. Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.

2. Subject to the moral law and capable of moral actions; bound to perform social duties; as a moral agent or being.

3. Supported by the evidence of reason or probability; founded on experience of the ordinary course of things; as moral certainty, distinguished from physical or mathematical certainty or demonstration.

Physical and mathematical certainty may be stiled infallible, and moral certainty may be properly stiled indubitable. Things of a moral nature may be proved by moral arguments.

4. Conformed to rules of right, or to the divine law respecting social duties; virtuous; just; as when we say, a particular action is not moral.

5. Conformed to law and right in exterior deportment; as, he leads a good moral life.

................

As shown above through the scriptures RIGHTEOUSNESS means MORAL RIGHT DOING linked to action. "All of God's commandments are righteousness" *Psalms 119:172. All of God's 10 commandments are moral laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to the scriptures if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. Of course this includes Gods 4th commandments which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[BobRyan]

Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian

hmm you want to know "how I would judge them" again?

Not simply - would I tell them truth about the Ten Commandments and murder - but rather "how would I judge them"??

You havent addressed the above at all.

I did that repeatedly when I pointed to the obvious 1 Cor 5 fact that Christians do not judge others outside of their own group.

 

[michael21]

hmm you want to know "how I would judge them" again?

Not simply - would I tell them truth about the Ten Commandments and murder - but rather "how would I judge them"??

How can I put this simply enough. You believe christians/believers/saints can break the commandments/sin as they might not be conscious of sin. I was asking you(as you know really) where you would draw the line with your belief. Could murders, constant alduterers, constant thieves be amongst the saints with your belief? Where do you draw the line? And as that is your belief, why do you continuously quote 1Cor7:19, and the saints keep the commandments of God, clearly, according to what you believe many do not. Its a contradiction. But as I am unlikely to actually get the point addressed, we may be coming to the end of our discussion

 

[michael21]

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

Hello Bob
Thankyou for the information. It leaves me wondering how sda members on websites such as these can consider as brothers and sisters those they discuss the subject with at length but have no compulsion to follow a saturday sabbath. Do they feel they have not adequately explained their message from their scriptures? Have they not presented it properly? It would seem to me, if they feel they have, they are in this instance ignoring the words of Ellen White

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
hmm you want to know "how I would judge them" again?

Not simply - would I tell them truth about the Ten Commandments and murder - but rather "how would I judge them"??

How can I put this simply enough. You believe christians/believers/saints can break the commandments/sin

Indeed - and I believe the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

claiming to "feel good" about a certain violation of God's Word is not some funny kind of exegetical proof that scripture "changed".

So as I said - if someone were to ask me "Bob - can I safely ignore this or that commandment in God's Ten Commandments"? My answer is always "no". As you know by now.

I was asking you(as you know really) where you would draw the line with your belief.

My belief is that God's Ten Commandments are included in the Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 as Paul says. And you already know this -- times ten so far.

Could murders, constant alduterers, constant thieves be amongst the saints with your belief?

David had many wives and concubines.
Solomon had many wives and concubines

You are asking me to "sit as judge of all the Earth" you are not satisfied with my saying that I would gladly tell anyone who asks of me - what the Bible actually teaches.

If I were called to join local church leadership in condemning some action that was against God's Word - I would do it... but you are not even asking that ... are you.

why do you continuously quote 1Cor7:19, and the saints keep the commandments of God,

Because that is the Word of God - and if said "transgressor" wishes to discuss it with me - I am happy to point out that God's commandments condemn adultery.

If you are not able to get these simple basic points then we have reached my limit to reduce it to the simplest parts and explain my position.

 

[BobRyan]

It leaves me wondering how sda members on websites such as these can consider as brothers and sisters those they discuss the subject with at length but have no compulsion to follow

We do it by applying the instruction God gives in John 9:41 so clear that it even applied to non-Christian Jews.. and in James 4:17

It would seem to me, if they feel they have, they are in this instance ignoring the words of Ellen White

It is unclear to me what if anything you know about what Ellen White wrote on this topic.

"Christians of past generations observed Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath; and there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before Him."

John 16 says that people get the wrong idea about something and follow that idea as if they "are doing God a service"

D.L. Moody's sermon on the Ten Commandments and specifically the Sabbath Commandment proves Ellen White's position in triplicate. So also the "Baptist Confession of Faith" proves it.

 

[michael21]

Indeed - and I believe the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

claiming to "feel good" about a certain violation of God's Word is not some funny kind of exegetical proof that scripture "changed".

So as I said - if someone were to ask me "Bob - can I safely ignore this or that commandment in God's Ten Commandments"? My answer is always "no". As you know by now.



My belief is that God's Ten Commandments are included in the Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 as Paul says. And you already know this -- times ten so far.



David had many wives and concubines.
Solomon had many wives and concubines

You are asking me to "sit as judge of all the Earth" you are not satisfied with my saying that I would gladly tell anyone who asks of me - what the Bible actually teaches.

If I were called to join local church leadership in condemning something I would do it... but you are not even asking that ... are you.



Because that is the Word of God - and if said "transgressor" wishes to discuss it with me - I am happy to point out that God's commandments condemn adultery.

If you are not able to get these simple basic points then we have reached my limit to reduce it to the simplest parts and explain my position.

I think we had better leave it there. But thank you for your views. Believers must obey the Ten Commandments, but many believers/saints do not as they havent got consciousness of sin concerning breaking them

BTW
Could I ask you, what about Jesus commands in the Gospels? Is it sin in your view not to obey them? Only your main thrust seems to be the ten, I wondered what your views were on Jesus commands in the Gospels

 

[BobRyan]

Could I ask you, what about Jesus commands in the Gospels? Is it sin in your view not to obey them? Only your main thrust seems to be the ten, I wondered what your views were on Jesus commands in the Gospels

God's Word is Law. Christ spoke the Law at Sinai according to Paul in Heb 8 where Paul quotes the New Covenant - Christ's Word is Law whether NT or OT.

I try to be careful in stating that the Ten are "INCLUDED" in the moral law of God written on the heart Jer 31:31-34 and that the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers would have "included" the TEN.

Moral law - "defines what sin is". 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law". It is not just limited to "the Ten" but the TEN are included in it.

 

[michael21]

God's Word is Law. Christ spoke the Law at Sinai according to Paul in Heb 8 where Paul quotes the New Covenant - Christ's Word is Law whether NT or OT.

OK, and sin is the transgression of the law. Thankyou for a forthright answer, Christ's word is law
Therefore, if you invite friends or family home for a meal, rather than the blind, lame and beggars you have committed sin?
If you have ever so much as hinted to anyone when you have fasted you have committed sin?
If someone stole something of yours, you would gladly give them more besides what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them, if you would not you have committed sin?
If anyone asked to lend from you, you would gladly lend to them without ever expecting anything back, if not you have sinned?
And if you do not, really love people from your heart who may be unkind to you, lie about you or persecute you, you have committed sin?

1Cor7:19 applies to everyone, yes?

 

[michael21]

It is phariseeical to rigidly quote the letter of commandments and demand others obey them if they want to attain to Heaven, when you yourself do not practice what you preach
But such is the way when you rigidly quote the written code, for: The letter kills
2Cor 3:6
Much better, if you want to be honest, is to tell people you so often fail to live up to biblical commands, that way you are being honest and not crushing those who may imagine you yourself really do fully obey the written code. That's acting in love to your neighbour

 

[BABerean2]

Hope this is helpful.

Not really, because you did not produce even one verse containing the phrase "the moral law".

Since you could not find it in the Bible, you attempted to create it.

You could have saved a great deal of time, and space, by admitting it is not found in the Bible.


.

 

[BobRyan]

It is phariseeical to rigidly quote the letter of commandments and demand others obey them if they want to attain to Heaven, when you yourself do not practice what you preach

Where does your accusation come from?

What is the statement you are condemning?

Is it your claim that no one can say "do not take God's name in vain" since they are not also sinless?

 

[BobRyan]

OK, and sin is the transgression of the law. Thankyou for a forthright answer, Christ's word is law
Therefore, if you invite friends or family home for a meal, rather than the blind, lame and beggars you have committed sin?

Does Jesus ever say that? Or does he in fact say "honor your father and mother" Matt 19.

Your posts seem to consistently argue that we should judge others or that you must do it. Do you have another idea ?