Ceremonial Law like circumcision -- vs moral law of TEN Comm with Sabbath for ALL

[BobRyan]

Act 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

And again ...

Act 15:28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

I get it, all groups, even those that Paul opposed to his face, like Peter want to hold fast to the old beliefs...

Acts 15 inconvenient details being skimmed over in that response.

1. Acts 15 does not list "Love the Lord your God" or "do not take God's name in vain" as applying to gentiles.

Yet we know - both of those commands do apply to gentile Christians... not "just the Jews".

2. Acts 15 says that one big part of the solution to the Christian church problem being addressed in Acts 15 - is that all Christians are hearing scripture - "EVERY Sabbath".

 

[BobRyan]

And again ...

Act 21:25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

How does keeping a specific day mean anything to God now?

Acts 21 does not include "honor your father and mother" but Eph 6:2 does include that for gentile Christians.
Acts 21 does not include "Love God with all your heart" but Matt 22 does include it.
James 2 forbids slicing up the Ten...

Jesus is the first fruits of the dead ... under the New Covenant. Sabbath is under the Old covenant,

The New Covenant is not quoted in your post - you should have quoted it because it is Old Testament.

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And is "unchanged" - verbatim in the New Testament Heb 8:6-12

Rom 3:31 31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

For even in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"these things I write that you SIN NOT" 1 John 2:1
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND hold to their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

 

[BobRyan]

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Which only says that there was no nation-covenant before Sinai. It is NOT saying that it was ok to take God's name in vain before Sinai - NOR is it saying that it was sin for Jews to take God's name in vain but not sin for gentiles to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7

Bible details freely admitted to by Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost ALL Christian denominations.

 

[BABerean2]

Which only says that there was no nation-covenant before Sinai. It is NOT saying that it was ok to take God's name in vain before Sinai - NOR is it saying that it was sin for Jews to take God's name in vain but not sin for gentiles to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7

Bible details freely admitted to by Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost ALL Christian denominations.

Deuteronomy 5:3 destroys your claim that the 4th commandment was in effect before Mount Sinai.

To this day you have not been able to explain how Adam could have committed adultery, or how Adam could honor his mother.

.

 

[BobRyan]

Deuteronomy 5:3 destroys your claim that the 4th commandment was in effect before Mount Sinai.
.

Hint: that is the claim of Ex 20:11 and Mark 2:27 and it is the claim of Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost ALL Christian denominations on planet Earth.

As we saw here --

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath in Eden...

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

...

 

[BABerean2]

Hint: that is the claim of Ex 20:11

'

In context...


Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


Are you claiming Adam was commanded not to commit adultery, and to honor his mother, and to not do any work on the Sabbath day?

Did the children of Israel work on the Sabbath day when they were in bondage in Egypt?


.

 

[EmethAlethia]

It is not even remotely possible that none of the Jews and gentiles in the synagogue "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 were at all being converted since Acts 18 tells us that is totally not true.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

There is no mention of "believed and stopped attending those gospel preaching services on Sabbath - but rather began week-day-1 gospel preaching services which they called the Lord's Day". Yet some readers will creatively "insert" that for us.

That's the whole point. Paul was there for a purpose, to share the gospel with those gathering, not to have a church service, to witness to the lost attending.

It is not even remotely possible that none of the Jews and gentiles in the synagogue "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 were at all being converted since Acts 18 tells us that is totally not true.

Act 18:4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.



There is no mention of "believed and stopped attending those gospel preaching services on Sabbath - but rather began week-day-1 gospel preaching services which they called the Lord's Day". Yet some readers will creatively "insert" that for us.

[QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 7618717

Yes, they showed up every Sabbath to show up to witness to the lost who gathered on that day. The reason they were there on the Sabbath was to reach the lost. That's it. You've got this.

Sabbath was observed by worship service and by refraining from labor. Gal 4:9-10 condemns the observance of even one pagan holy day.

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

These weren't pagan feasts, but Jewish ones, Passover, for example was based on the season and the moon cycle. It's talking about people who were reestablishing the need to keep O.T. practices.

The NT says "he who will not work - neither let him eat" - 2Thess 3:10 ...

so there was no allowance at all for keeping every day of the week as Sabbath. That means "observes every day" in Rom 14:5 - is just the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

It does not work any other way.[/QUOTE]

I get it. Your belief is fact. Ergo the only correct interpretations must support your beliefs, or at least not refute them. The only day of the week the Jews wanted everyone to keep was the Sabbath. They also wanted to keep circumcision ... all the feasts... they wanted to add Christ to the O.T.. Here's the thing. I can worship every single day. If I can't make it Sunday, I might make it Saturday. If I can't make either I will do it on Wednesday or some other day. The day is not the issue for me. Use logic and reason. What day of the week are people still getting bent out of shape over, just as they were then?

 

[EmethAlethia]

Rom 3:31 31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

For even in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"these things I write that you SIN NOT" 1 John 2:1
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND hold to their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The law was a tutor to lead us to Christ but we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[BobRyan]

The law was a tutor to lead us to Christ but we are no longer under a tutor.

Under the New Covenant "the Law is written on heart and mind" rather than abolished - Jer 31:31-34
Of the saints Paul says this in Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."
Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
John says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
Paul says the commandments of God include the TEN having " 'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Rom 3:19-20 shows the very "special context" for Paul's term "under the Law" and it is referencing "under the Law apart from faith" as a lost person. So then all lost people (to this very day) are under the condemnation of the law - "all the world accountable" Rom 3:19.

The law leads the lost person to realize their need of salvation - and brings them to faith in Christ. When that person is saved - faith has come - and they are no longer under that condemnation.

Moses and Elijah stand in glory fully forgiven WITH Christ in Matt 17 BEFORE the cross -

 

[BobRyan]

That's the whole point. Paul was there for a purpose, to share the gospel with those gathering, not to have a church service, to witness to the lost attending.

Every gospel meeting among Christians - proclaims the gospel. But what we see in the examples I showed - is that Jews AND gentiles were hearing the Gospel and believing AND asking for "more gospel" preaching on the "NEXT Sabbath" and not "tomorrow".

So then they showed up every Sabbath (Acts 18:4)

Sabbath was observed by worship service and by refraining from labor. By contrast Gal 4:9-10 condemns the observance of even one pagan holy day.

Gal 4 is addressed to former pagans newly turned to be Christian.
Gal 4:8 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods.


Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

These weren't pagan feasts, but Jewish ones,

hint: Pagans newly turned to be Christian could only "return again" to paganism - they could not "return again to Judaism" since they were never Jews to start with.

And IF observing Passover was the thing that caused loss of salvation - then Paul lost it after becoming a Christian and worse than that - in Acts 21 he even goes into the temple and takes a vow - paying for other Jewish Christians to do it as well to "PROVE" he was not teaching people to ignore the OT not even in the areas of things like Passover or taking a vow in the temple.

Rom 14 allows for individual observance of those Bible approved holy days and flat out condemns any teaching that would condemn someone for keeping Passover.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 4 is addressed to former pagans newly turned to be Christian. (not to former Jews newly turned Christian)
Gal 4:8 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods.

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

The NT says "he who will not work - neither let him eat" - 2Thess 3:10 ...

so there was no allowance at all for keeping every day of the week as Sabbath. That means "observes every day" in Rom 14:5 - is just the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

It does not work any other way.

I get it. Your belief is fact.

Only if you want to claim I wrote the Bible as my belief. Which is not logical.

 

[BobRyan]

Deuteronomy 5:3 destroys your claim that the 4th commandment was in effect before Mount Sinai.
.

Hint: that is the claim of Ex 20:11 and Mark 2:27 and it is the claim of Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost ALL Christian denominations on planet Earth.

As we saw here --

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath in Eden...

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

...

'

In context...

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,... <quotes all of the Ten Commandments>

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath in Eden...

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

'
Are you claiming Adam was commanded not to commit adultery,
and to honor his mother,

1. I am claiming all those Bible scholars and sunday-groups admitting to the TEN in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant and given to mankind in Eden are "not just ME".

obviously.

2. I am claiming that God was not going to draw up a new law each time Adam and Eve had a child.

obviously.

3. And I am claiming that these Bible details are so incredibly obvious that Bible scholars on BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate (so not "just me") admit to them in almost ALL Christian denominations.

My point is that these basic details are very very obvious.

 

[BABerean2]

1. I am claiming all those Bible scholars and sunday-groups admitting to the TEN in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant and given to mankind in Eden are "not just ME".

obviously.

2. I am claiming that God was not going to draw up a new law each time Adam and Eve had a child.

obviously.

3. And I am claiming that these Bible details are so incredibly obvious that Bible scholars on BOTH SIDES of the Sabbath debate (so not "just me") admit to them in almost ALL Christian denominations.

My point is that these basic details are very very obvious.

The term "the moral law" did not exist until it was written by men in the Westminster Confession of Faith, and was later adopted into the 1689 LBCF. It did not come from the Bible. You are quoting proponents of Reformed Covenant Theology, which is about 400 years old.

Neither any of those dead scholars, nor you, have been able to explain how Adam could commit adultery, nor how Adam could honor his mother.

If you or any of these dead Reformed Covenant Theology "scholars" are going to make a claim, you should be able to show it in scripture.


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

.

 

[Bob S]

'
Did the children of Israel work on the Sabbath day when they were in bondage in Egypt?

Nothing is recorded about Sabbath until after crossing the Red Sea. God didn't even have them stop their flight on the day that was to become their Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

The term "the moral law" did not exist until it was written by men in the Westminster Confession of Faith,

Yet even they understood the Bible concept - for even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- that law which defines what sin IS -- = "The moral law of God".

It includes the TEN having " 'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

as we have seen so many times before.. the Law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 - the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
.

Heb 8:6-12 is quoting Jer 31:31-34 "the NEW Covenant" verbatim - no change at all.