Ceremonial Law like circumcision -- vs moral law of TEN Comm with Sabbath for ALL

[BobRyan]

Can you not answer yes or no, is there a reason you are reticent?
Do you obey the letter of the Ten Commandments.
Its a simple question

Clarify - "Do you mean "as opposed to declaring opposition to them"??

Do you mean "do you affirm God's Ten commandments and are sinless"?

Or do you mean "do you affirm God's Ten Commandments"?

 

[michael21]

So when I say Protestants in England did not "feel bad" about killing Catholics - you view this as a "defense of Catholicism".

Or when I say Catholics did not "feel bad" about killing protestants for centuries - you view this as defending Catholicism?

Are you trying to have it "both ways"?

Are you saying you think that about 1.3 B Christians are lost because they do not share your beliefs?

Is that your POV?

You are simply trying to prove sola scripture doesn't exist here. And as I have previously told you, I am not here to judge others or decide or decide their spiritual state. But I do understand, when sola scripture opposes your denominational belief, anything must be used to oppose sola scripture

 

[BobRyan]

WITHIN a given group as we see in 1 Cor 5 - discipline sets the line straight.

But between groups I cannot argue that Presbyterians (and Methodists) are right to ignore the bible teaching on believers Baptism. A lot of Baptists would agree with me on this point no matter that the Presbyterians "feel good" about infant baptism..

I also cannot agree with prayers to the dead or bowing down to images - but a great many Catholic Christians would "feel good" about differing with me.

Just saying a large number of Christians "feel good" about something does not change the Bible - but it does bring in James 4:17 and John 9:41 where each person is accountable to what they know to be right.

You cannot just dismiss all this as "defending protestants for killing Catholics" or "defending Catholics for killing protestants" or "defending infant baptism" etc.

So then -- dodging them all... we get

Yes, I understand, in order to defend catholics/catholicism you are prepared to ignore one of the most basic tenets of sola scripture in the bible. Or possibly, anything in order to deflect from sola scripture in this instance

Do you consider Presbyterians and Methodists in the example above to be "Catholics"??

 

[BobRyan]

You are simply trying to prove sola scripture doesn't exist here.

Far from it. I am declaring that James 4:17 and John 9:41 and Rom 2:13-16 - matter even if they do not fit your preference -- and yes that IS very much sola scriptura testing.

These texts AFFIRM our position of not condemning billions of Christians.

 

[michael21]

Clarify - "Do you mean "as opposed to declaring opposition to them"??

Do you mean "do you affirm God's Ten commandments and are sinless"?

Or do you mean "do you affirm God's Ten Commandments"?

I will tell you why you refuse to answer the simple question. You cannot say you fully obey the letter of the ten commandments, for you would obviously not be telling the truth. However, if you were honest, and admitted you do not fully obey the letter of them, well, that would cause you major problems with what you tell others wouldn't it. Its OK, i expected deflection

 

[Bob S]

Come now, for the believer, as you acknowledge the law is in their heart and mind. God put it there! You also acknowledge sin is the transgression ofr the law. We are speaking of believers, not non believers. So I ask again. How can seventh day adventists accept anyone as a christian who has no consciousness of sin if they fail to adhere to a saturday sabbath. Sola scripture states they must, if sda belief is correct

Greeting Michael, you hit the nail on the head. If you read into what SDAs believe, which I have having been one for many years, you will find that they truly believe those who know about the Israelite Sabbath cannot be saved unless they "keep" it. This comes from their revered prophet, Ellen White. They believe what she wrote is just as inspired as scripture.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

Nowhere is it given that gentiles have ever been subject to the Sabbath law. They flounder about using their "proof texts" to try to prove we are under the laws that were given only to the Israelites and fully ignore all the real proof that we are not under those laws. They tell us the ten commandments are what is written on our hearts, but have no scripture to back up that claim. I have never ever been persuaded by the Holy Spirit to keep any day. SDAs spend millions trying to convince unsuspecting people to join their flock. A few do, but after a while most leave. They tell us how many millions they have, but that count is not taken from active members. The count is taken from the names on the book. Millions of those have not seen the inside of an Adventist church in years

 

[michael21]

Far from it. I am declaring that James 4:17 and John 9:41 and Rom 2:13-16 - matter even if they do not fit your preference -- and yes that IS very much sola scriptura testing.

These texts AFFIRM our position of not condemning billions of Christians

James 4:17 has, as you know already been responded to. And I understand, you do not believe the law of God neccessarily convicts of sin.
Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian as they may have a different consciousness of sin to you? How about continuous adultery, or stealing, would you accept such people as fellow believers? How does this all fit in with ''you must obey the ten commandments''?

 

[BobRyan]

James 4:17 has, as you know already been responded to.

It covers a great many scenarios - you agreed to only one of them. It is the others where your argument is failing.

And I understand, you do not believe the law of God neccessarily convicts of sin.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin John 16 - not just the saved.

Not all believers have the same view of right vs wrong, sin vs righteousness
1. Believers baptism
2. Prayers to the dead
3. Protestants killing so-called heretic-catholics
4. Catholics killing so-called heretic-Protestants

Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian

Not today but in the dark ages both Protestants and Catholics did that -- and while I am sure many on both sides who did that were not saved I cannot judge every case. John 16 says people did it thinking they were doing service to God.

My view is...
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Not everyone has taken a good look at that.

 

[michael21]

It covers a great many scenarios - you agreed to only one of them. It is the others where your argument is failing.



The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin John 16 - not just the saved.

Not all believers have the same view of right vs wrong, sin vs righteousness
1. Believers baptism
2. Prayers to the dead
3. Protestants killing so-called heretic-catholics
4. Catholics killing so-called heretic-Protestants




Not today but in the dark ages both Protestants and Catholics did that -- and while I am sure many on both sides who did that were not saved I cannot judge every case. John 16 says people did it thinking they were doing service to God.

My view is...
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Not everyone has taken a good look at that.

John 16 already responded to. If you want to discuss catholic belief discuss it with catholics, im here to discuss what the bible states. Apparantly 1Cor7:19 can be put aside in your view, for people may not be conscious of certain sins that verse refers to

 

[michael21]

It covers a great many scenarios - you agreed to only one of them. It is the others where your argument is failing.



The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin John 16 - not just the saved.

Not all believers have the same view of right vs wrong, sin vs righteousness
1. Believers baptism
2. Prayers to the dead
3. Protestants killing so-called heretic-catholics
4. Catholics killing so-called heretic-Protestants




Not today but in the dark ages both Protestants and Catholics did that -- and while I am sure many on both sides who did that were not saved I cannot judge every case. John 16 says people did it thinking they were doing service to God.

My view is...
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Not everyone has taken a good look at that.

In my opinion you are getting in a hopeless muddle here. On the one hand you resolutely quote the commandments must be obeyed, but on the other, christians can be exempt as they may not be conscious of sin concerning them.

 

[michael21]

It covers a great many scenarios - you agreed to only one of them. It is the others where your argument is failing.



The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin John 16 - not just the saved.

Not all believers have the same view of right vs wrong, sin vs righteousness
1. Believers baptism
2. Prayers to the dead
3. Protestants killing so-called heretic-catholics
4. Catholics killing so-called heretic-Protestants




Not today but in the dark ages both Protestants and Catholics did that -- and while I am sure many on both sides who did that were not saved I cannot judge every case. John 16 says people did it thinking they were doing service to God.

My view is...
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN

Not everyone has taken a good look at that.

Could you respond to the following please:
Where do you draw the line? If someone committed murder each week would you accept them as a christian as they may have a different consciousness of sin to you? How about continuous adultery, or stealing, would you accept such people as fellow believers? How does this all fit in with ''you must obey the ten commandments''?

 

[michael21]

.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sister, Hebrews 4 gives the reason God did not make them to enter His "rest" for 40 years with an oath. He made them keep the seventh day Sabbath from morning to morning with manna for 40 years that Hebrews highlights as not entering God's "rest" to show that to think that the Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening is the seventh day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden is wrong.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. (Hebrews 4:3 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The scripture you posted does not support your statement "God's "rest" to show that to think that the Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening is the seventh day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden is wrong."

There is nothing in the bible that says the time zone for Sabbath is in Eden only. You are confusing the rest we receive in Christ when we obey God's commandments including the 4th commandment which is made clear is on Saturday and the days begin from evening to evening (sundown) according to scripture.

 

[BABerean2]

Hint: there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and that gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8... it is the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34. Everyone who was ever saved - in all of time was saved under the New Covenant.

You got the above right, and it proves a person's salvation is not based on keeping the Sinai Covenant.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


.

 

[BABerean2]

That is the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant where the moral law of God (known to Jeremiah and his readers) is written on the heart and mind - and sins forgiven, and adoption into the family of God (according to the actual text).

You keep referring to "the moral law", which is a term invented to make man-made confessions work, but is not found in the Bible.

Therefore, you are standing upon a work of fiction.

It is built upon sand, instead of the Word of God.


Please show us the scripture containing the term "the moral law".

If you cannot produce it, quit using it as your source of truth, and quit expecting us to accept it as a source of truth.

.

 

[guevaraj]

The scripture you posted does not support your statement "God's "rest" to show that to think that the Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening is the seventh day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden is wrong." There is nothing in the bible that says the time zone for Sabbath is in Eden only. You are confusing the rest we receive in Christ when we obey God's commandments including the 4th commandment which is made clear is on Saturday and the days begin from evening to evening (sundown) according to scripture.

Sister, what Hebrews 4 tells us is that keeping the seventh day of the week with manna as done in Eden is not entering God's "rest" near Israel as God rested in Eden, although they were doing what correct is in Eden with manna. The Sabbath in Israel is correct, but it is not the seventh day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden. In Israel, the Sabbath falls between two days of the week. The point is that the Sabbath in Israel is not a day of the week, established in Eden from morning to morning and not from evening to evening. Israel is keeping the correct Sabbath because remembered it is in the Eden time zone and not because it is in Israel on the seventh day of the week. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning. Evening falls in the middle of the first day dividing the halves that God called "day" and "night", in that order. Each day of the week ends in a "night" in which God has nothing to report from evening to morning because He only creates during the first half of light from morning to evening and stops creating every "night" from evening to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sister, what Hebrews 4 tells us is that keeping the seventh day of the week with manna as done in Eden is not entering God's "rest" near Israel as God rested in Eden, although they were doing what correct is in Eden with manna. The Sabbath in Israel is correct, but it is not the seventh day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden. In Israel, the Sabbath falls between two days of the week. The point is that the Sabbath in Israel is not a day of the week, established in Eden from morning to morning and not from evening to evening. Israel is keeping the correct Sabbath because remembered it is in the Eden time zone and not because it is in Israel on the seventh day of the week. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning. Evening falls in the middle of the first day dividing the halves that God called "day" and "night", in that order. Each day of the week ends in a "night" in which God has nothing to report from evening to morning because He only creates during the first half of light from morning to evening and stops creating every "night" from evening to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The scripture quote you provided does not match your commentary. It's best we stick with scriptures and let them interpret themselves.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We have proved over and over what "keeping the commandments" means in the new covenant, something you have never proven because you cannot.

Sorry Bob, where did you post that. I must have missed it or you have my mixed up with someone else. That is not true at all. These are simply your words here not Gods'

Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot. Why, if all the other laws in the old covenant are void, do you hold fast to the dietary laws and your modified false tithing system? Do not ever forget the two greatest laws in the Bible are found in the laws you discard. The least you could be is consistant.

Well none of that is true Bob. Who said to you that all the laws in the old covenant are void? - Yep no one and neither does scripture. So if I have never said that all the laws in the old covenant are void why are you pretending that I have? Your mixing up up the "shadow laws" for remission of sins and God's plan of salvation for mankind under the new covenant with God's eternal law that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. According to the scriptures everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). I guess the shooting is all your doing here trying to make arguments no one is making.

Tell that to Jesus who distinguished what He kept and what He asks us to keep. JN 15:9-14

According to the scriptures Jesus does not have a separate law to His fathers law as Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30). You like your friend are trying to divide the father against the son when the scriptures teach a kingdom that is divided against itself cannot stand *Luke 11:17-20. Jesus does not have different commandments to the Father and you have already been shown through the new covenant scriptures that love is not separate from Gods' law. Love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Perhaps you might need to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of this topic Bob. God's Word disagrees with your words here.

Sorry Bob it seems God's Word disagrees with your words here.

 

[BobRyan]

John 16 already responded to

Did you agree that God convicts the "World" of sin and righteousness and judgment and not "just believers"??

. If you want to discuss catholic belief discuss it with catholics,

Your profile says you are a Christian - for all I know you are a Catholic Christian.

im here to discuss what the bible states.

The Bible says the Ten having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 applies to the world - and esp to Christians.

The Bible says God the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 (not just the saved)

The Bible says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The Bible says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Apparantly 1Cor7:19 can be put aside in your view

Nope. I keep quoting it on almost every page of the thread - because it matters.

James 4:17 also matters
John 9:41 also matters

, for people may not be conscious of certain sins that verse refers to

That is how many protestants view the Catholic position on prayers to the dead and bowing down to images.

That is how the Baptists view the Methodist and Presbyterian idea of baptizing infants instead of believers.

That is how certain Catholic authorities view the Protestant rejection of papal infallibility by Protestants, and the rejection by Protestants of Catholic Mass claims to "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" in the mass.

 

[BobRyan]

You keep referring to "the moral law", which is a term invented to make man-made confessions work, but is not found in the Bible.

The word "Trinity" is also not found in the Bible but it remains as handy short-hand for doctrine that IS in the Bible.

Just as "moral law of God" as a reference to the Law that defines what sin is (Rom 3:19-20, 1 John 3:4) is great short-hand for that glaringly obvious Bible teaching.