Ceremonial Law like circumcision -- vs moral law of TEN Comm with Sabbath for ALL

[michael21]

Where does your accusation come from?

What is the statement you are condemning?

Is it your claim that no one can say "do not take God's name in vain" since they are not also sinless?

Is it phariseeical in your view, to tell people if they want to attain to heaven they must obey the law/commanmdents, when the person stating that does not themselves obey the law, or even tries to in many circumstances? Do you not believe that is how the pharisees of Jesus day acted?

 

[michael21]

Does Jesus ever say that? Or does he in fact say "honor your father and mother" Matt 19.

Y

When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous Luke14:12-14
Would you like me to quote the rest of the examples I gave, that you cut from your response? I can, with many more

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not really, because you did not produce even one verse containing the phrase "the moral law".

Since you could not find it in the Bible, you attempted to create it.

You could have saved a great deal of time, and space, by admitting it is not found in the Bible.


.

Are you seriously going to tell me that God's law is not moral? When you were indeed provided scripture that says Gods' law is moral? You did not read the whole post did you.

Here let me post it again perhaps you missed it....

HEBREW

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.< tsedeq RIGHT DOING - MORAL>

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Righteousness H6664; צדק tsedeq; tseh'-dek; From H6663; the right, natural, MORAL or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is defined as the standard of MORAL RIGHT in the Hebrew which God’s Word defines as ALL GOD’S COMMANDMENTS. This of course includes God’s 4th commandment which is one of God’s 10 commandments written with the finger of God.

The opposite of righteousness is unrighteousness as shown in this scripture here…

1 JOHN 5:17-18 [17] ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN: and there is a sin not to death. [18], WE KNOW THAT WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in HEBREW (H5766) עול עול עולה עולה עלה ;‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh From H5765; MORAL EVIL: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in GREEK (G93) ἀδικία; adikia (legal) injustice (properly the quality, by implication the act); MORAL WRONGFULNESS of charater, life or act: - iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.

ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (ἀδικία Moral wrongfulness) IS SIN which is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments. UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is the opposite of RIGHTEOUSNESS and ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is SIN *1 JOHN 5:17 and SIN is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 then RIGHTEOUSNESS is OBEDIENCE to God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) as is why it is written;

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE *RIGHTEOUSNESS.<Moral Right Doing>

ROMANS 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does GOOD (good G5544 moral excellence) no, not one.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G5544
χρηστότης; chrēstotēs From G5543; usefulness, that is, MORAL EXCELLENCE in character or demeanor: - gentleness, good (-ness), kindness.

...........

As shown above, God's Word not mine says all of God's commandments are the standard of moral right doing (righteousness). They are Gods' Word not mine. Now what is it you do not believe in what has been shared with you?

Take Care.

 

[BABerean2]

Are you seriously going to tell me that God's law is not moral?

Which law?

Do not eat the fruit of...

Go to a land I will show you...

Circumcise your male offspring...

Do not wear a garment made of more than one fiber...

Do not eat shrimp...

Do not pick up sticks on the Sabbath day...


Paul against the Law Men: David H.J. Gay

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[guevaraj]

The scripture quote you provided does not match your commentary. It's best we stick with scriptures and let them interpret themselves.

Sister, let's lake a closer look at what Hebrews 4 says in response to your earlier statement. A careful reading will show that it is the Sabbath "rest" and not any other "rest".

The scripture you posted does not support your statement "God's "rest" to show that to think that the Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening is the seventh day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden is wrong." There is nothing in the bible that says the time zone for Sabbath is in Eden only.

Israel's example of keeping the Sabbath shows that remembered is the Sabbath in the Eden time zone. The reason you cannot see it is because you have not understood how God defined a day from morning to morning and not from evening to evening. This next passage is evidence for this fact where the day's end in a "night" from evening to morning, as before shared with you in Genesis.

The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” (Genesis 19:34 NIV)​

You are confusing the rest we receive in Christ when we obey God's commandments including the 4th commandment which is made clear is on Saturday and the days begin from evening to evening (sundown) according to scripture.

Hebrews 4 says that during the 40 years that Israel kept the Seventh-day Sabbath with manna, that Sabbath was not the "rest" that God kept on the seventh day of creation. It would have been God's "rest" if Israel were in Eden, but not near the promised land.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:9-11 KJV)​

A careful reading of the previous passage shows that the "rest" that God wants us to enter is the "rest" of the Sabbath because it is the only "rest" that we know that God kept. We are called above to enter the "rest" of ceasing from our own works "as God did from His" on the seventh day of creation.

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (Hebrews 4:4 KJV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Which law?.

Did you read what you were quoting from? It says ALL GOD'S COMMANDMENTS ARE MORAL (Righteousness)! What has your post here got to do with what you are quoting from? Nothing! Do you know what the definition of moral is? Righteousness means moral right doing. While Unrighteousness means moral wrongfulness or moral wrong doing. Moral is defined as the action of the character that are good or evil, righteousness or unrighteousness and God's 10 commandments are the standard of what is good if obeyed and wrong, evil or sin if disobeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172; 1 John 3:4.

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, 1828
MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]

1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness. Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue. Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.

2. Subject to the moral law and capable of moral actions; bound to perform social duties; as a moral agent or being.

3. Supported by the evidence of reason or probability; founded on experience of the ordinary course of things; as moral certainty, distinguished from physical or mathematical certainty or demonstration.

Physical and mathematical certainty may be stiled infallible, and moral certainty may be properly stiled indubitable. Things of a moral nature may be proved by moral arguments.

4. Conformed to rules of right, or to the divine law respecting social duties; virtuous; just; as when we say, a particular action is not moral.

5. Conformed to law and right in exterior deportment; as, he leads a good moral life.

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Get yourself some good dictionaries.

 

[BABerean2]

Did you read what you were quoting from? It says ALL GOD'S COMMANDMENTS ARE MORAL (Righteousness)! What has your post here got to do with what you are quoting from? Nothing! Do you know what the definition of moral is? Righteousness means moral right doing. While Unrighteousness means moral wrongfulness or moral wrong doing. Moral is defined as the action of the character that are good or evil, righteousness or unrighteousness and God's 10 commandments are the standard of what is good if obeyed and wrong, evil or sin if disobeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172; 1 John 3:4.

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, 1828
MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]

1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness. Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue. Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.

2. Subject to the moral law and capable of moral actions; bound to perform social duties; as a moral agent or being.

3. Supported by the evidence of reason or probability; founded on experience of the ordinary course of things; as moral certainty, distinguished from physical or mathematical certainty or demonstration.

Physical and mathematical certainty may be stiled infallible, and moral certainty may be properly stiled indubitable. Things of a moral nature may be proved by moral arguments.

4. Conformed to rules of right, or to the divine law respecting social duties; virtuous; just; as when we say, a particular action is not moral.

5. Conformed to law and right in exterior deportment; as, he leads a good moral life.

...............

Get yourself some good dictionaries.

Based on your definition, was Christ "moral" in the passage below?


The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath

Joh 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
Joh 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.


Would you have joined in with the Pharisees in condemning Christ in the passage above, because of your "moral" 4th commandment, which was the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant?

Based on the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment.

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Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicaea comment on the Sabbath:


Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master(Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.(Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?(Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,1 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.(First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness.(The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)

“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show.(The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)

Tertullian

“[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God”(An Answer to the Jews Chapter II.—The Law Anterior to Moses. [A.D. 203]).

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[LoveGodsWord]

Based on your definition, was Christ "moral" in the passage below?

Sorry I cannot take credit for the scriptures and the Hebrew and Greek word definition of moral showing that all of Gods' Commandments are moral laws of good if obeyed and evil or sin if disobeyed. They are Gods' Words not my words. I only provided them as a help for you. It seems you do not believe them though. Why is that?

The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
Joh 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
Joh 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Is Jesus doing good on the Sabbath by healing someone? Yes then Jesus was practicing doing good on the Sabbath which is lawful on the Sabbath day (see Matthew 12:1-12).

Would you have joined in with the Pharisees in condemning Christ in the passage above, because of your "moral" 4th commandment, which was the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant?

Of course not Jesus came to teach us that it is lawful to do good even on the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:1-12). This of course is not the same as doing our own secular work and business on the Sabbath and breaking God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-12 of the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:1-17 that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4

Based on the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment.

It is quite clear from our discussion that you do not know what the old covenant was or the new covenant that the old covenant points to. I have asked you many times now and shown you from the scriptures that your understanding of what you think the old covenant was and what the new covenant is does not line up with the scriptures.

Let me ask you again, Do you know what laws made up the old covenant? You quoted Exodus 34:28 previously and yes the 10 commandments were included in the old covenant but were they the only laws included in the old covenant? -NO! If not what other laws made up the old covenant and what is now obsolete in the new covenant? It is the Mosiac laws for remission of sins and the shadow laws that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant (the laws of the Levitical Priesthood and the earthly Sanctuary; the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings; the laws of the Feast days; the laws of circumcision etc) see *Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

It is true that the new covenant is not the same as the old covenant so how has it now changed? Jesus is now our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. What has the Mosaic book of the law have to do with the old covenant *Exodus 24:7? (Hint: The answer to these questions is written in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 and Exodus 20:4) - It holds all the shadow laws for remission of sins.

You mix up the shadow laws for remission of sins from the old covenant with Gods eternal law (10 commandments) in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. According to the scriptures in the new covenant if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. So of course we are also talking about Gods' 4th commandment here as Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 7:7.

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many to break Gods' 4th commandment. According to Jesus if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are now worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. If we are now worshiping God by following man-made teachings and traditions then who are we worshiping?

Something to pray about

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicaea comment on the Sabbath:.

As posted earlier posting Catholic sources outside of scripture does not help your cause as History shows from the times of Jesus and the Apostles to this very present day Gods' people have always kept God's 4th commandment unbroken to this present day. Those people you call your fathers are not mine. I prefer the bible.

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FIRST FOUR CENTURIES OF SABBATH OBSERVANCE IN THE EARLY CHURCH


Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The First Century A.D.

INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:1-3 )

JESUS
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read." (Luke 4:16)

JESUS
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16,17)

JESUS
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." (Matthew 24, 20).
NOTE: Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. 40 years after the Jesus' crucfixion and we see here that Jesus fully expected His church to be observing His true seventh day Sabbath that He Himself proclaimed to be the Lord of.

JESUS' FOLLOWERS
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23:56.) Did these women make a mistake and keep the wrong sabbath or was it that Christ NEVER EVER hinted that there would be a change forthcoming???

PAUL
"And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) Did Christ fail to inform Paul on the road to Damascus that there's now a new sabbath? Or rather does the silence of Christ speak volumes against the papal sabbath???

PAUL AND THE GENTILES
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.

Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."

And get this: The Bible does not say it is the "old Jewish Sabbath that was passed away," but the Spirit of God, writing the Book of Acts some 30 years after the crucifixion, calls it "the next Sabbath."

JOHN
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Rev.1:10 (Matthew 12:6; Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord's day).
The term "Lord's day" in reference to sunday came later. The Biblical meaning for Lord's day is the day that God calls "My holy day" and the day that Jesus said He is Lord of.

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

PHILO
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.

The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D.

..............................

Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Second Century A.D.

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.

..........................

Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Third Century A.D.

50 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).
EARLY CHRISTIANS-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

AFRICA (ALEXANDRIA) ORIGEN
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

PALESTINE TO INDIA (CHURCH OF THE EAST)
As early as A.D. 225 there existed large bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.

INDIA (BUDDHIST CONTROVERSY), 220 A.D.)
The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.

EARLY CHRISTIANS
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

..........................

Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Fourth Century A.D.

ITALY AND EAST-C 4th
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west...For in the Church of Millaine (Milan);...it seems the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme (Judaism); but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus (Jesus) Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." "History of the Sabbath" (original spelling retained), Part 2, par. 5, pp.73, 74. London: 1636. Dr. Heylyn.
ORIENT AND MOST OF WORLD
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.

ABYSSINIA
"In the last half of that century St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.

ARABIA, PERSIA, INDIA, CHINA
"Mingana proves that in 370 A.D. Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbath keeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musacus, travelled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India and China." "Truth Triumphanat,"p.308 (Footnote 27).

ITALY-MILAN
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath" (1612)

SPAIN-COUNCIL ELVIRA (A.D.305)
Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spain at that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.

SPAIN
It is a point of further interest to note that in north-eastern Spain near the city of Barcelona is a city called Sabadell, in a district originaly inhabited. By a people called both "Valldenses" and Sabbatati."

PERSIA-A.D. 335-375 (40 YEARS PERSECUTION UNDER SHAPUR II)
The popular complaint against the Christians-"They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it." Truth Triumphant," p.170.

PERSIA-A.D.335-375
"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

COUNCIL LAODICEA-A.D.365
"Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud." "Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6.

......................

If you would like more historical references let me know?

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Bob S]

Sorry Bob, where did you post that. I must have missed it or you have my mixed up with someone else. That is not true at all. These are simply your words here not Gods'

Anything that proves your theory wrong you seem to miss.

Well none of that is true Bob. Who said to you that all the laws in the old covenant are void?

Maybe we are not on the same page. I am referring to the laws and ordinances God spoke out of His mouth. They all must be void because the SDA church does not teach observance of them with the exception of the dietary laws and the SDA false tithing system. The SDA take on Col 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
means to SDAs that the spoken words of the Sinai covenant were what was against the Israelites and were blotted out. Ellen in the passages below makes it clear that she believed, thus the church believes and you spouse Adventism, so you believe her writings, all that is immortal concerning the covenant laws are just the ten. How the dietary and tithing laws somehow escaped all the other rubble is quite disturbing.
The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark. {PP 364.3}
There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ “took ... out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, “Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.” Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law.... Verily I say unto you”—making the assertion as emphatic as possible—“Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God’s law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages. {PP 365.1}

Yep no one and neither does scripture. So if I have never said that all the laws in the old covenant are void why are you pretending that I have? Your mixing up up the "shadow laws" for remission of sins and God's plan of salvation for mankind under the new covenant with God's eternal law that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. According to the scriptures everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). I guess the shooting is all your doing here.

Being repeated does not render us to be under them. Actually, no place in all of the New Testament does it tell Gentiles we are under Sabbath requirements.

According to the scriptures Jesus does not have a separate law to His fathers law as Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30).

Why do you keep totally denying Jn 15:9-14?????
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

You like your friend are trying to divide the father against the son when the scriptures teach a kingdom that is divided against itself cannot stand

We quote only the Word in context. As to us dividing the Godhead is a total lie. I take offence at your suggestion. Jesus said it and I believe it. He kept the laws of the old covenant and asks us to keep His command to ❤ as He loves us.

Jesus does not have different commandments to the Father

They are in total agreement in everything. That does not mean that Jesus didn't give us a law that was never given by the Father. Read Matt 5: 21-48.

and you have already been shown through the new covenant scriptures that love is not separate from Gods' law.

Oh yes, you certainly have attempted to show us, but I, for one, have never accepted your feeble attempt to make it the truth. Again, there is not one word in the ten commandments about love. Any attempt to prove my statement contrary to anything you have provided is a big 0.

Love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus

Love could have been expressed by the Israelites through their obedience to all 613 laws of the covenant, but they also could have kept them out of fear, reprisal or just plain duty. We, under the new covenant are not subject to the ritual parts of the covenant, which includes the weekly Sabbath, so we don't have that to contend with.

Perhaps you might need to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of this topic Bob. God's Word disagrees with your words here.

I know what is the truth and I abide by all of the laws of the new covenant. When I fail, I have an advocate. Thankfully, I don't have to try to keep a day holy. You think you have to, so how is that going? Are you guarding your words and your thoughts? Are you really "keeping" the day Holy? Maybe you are the one who needs to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of all the topics we differ. Are you sure down there in Australia that you are "keeping" the correct day? The Sabbath day began at Sinai and as the sun set to the West the Sabbath began. Where you live Sabbath would have started when the Sabbath at Sinai was over half over. As it is now, New Zealand and Australia begin the seventh-day and the Sabbath at Sinai would not start until the Sabbath in Australia is almost half over. Are you aware of that fact?

Sorry Bob it seems God's Word disagrees with your words here.

Not so LGW, what is disagreed is your interpretation and adding to the Word. Some of the teachings of the SDAs didn't help me in my Christian experience. It is so good to be gone from the things that made me a legalist.

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry I cannot take credit for the scriptures and the Hebrew and Greek word definition of moral showing that all of Gods' Commandments are moral laws of good if obeyed and evil or sin if disobeyed. They are Gods' Words not my words. I only provided them as a help for you. It seems you do not believe them though. Why is that?

The word "moral" is not found in the KJV Bible.

Therefore, what you are claiming is an invention of men, instead of God.


.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Anything that proves your theory wrong you seem to miss.

Well that is not true Bob, I think by the grace of God through His Spirit, I have addressed all your posts to me section by section and scripture by scripture just like your friend providing the contexts you leave out of the scriptures you have provided to the rest of the bible that proves your teachings of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical. You teach Gods' 10 commandments have been abolished Bob but that is a teaching unsupported by the scriptures in the new covenant that show that everyone of God's 10 commandments including Gods' seventh day Sabbath is repeated all through the new covenant as a requirement and the standard of Christian living and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. (more scripture support for anyone interested here and here). If you believe I have missed something that I am not aware of please feel free to let me know. Until then I guess we will agree to disagree.

Maybe we are not on the same page. I am referring to the laws and ordinances God spoke out of His mouth.They all must be void because the SDA church does not teach observance of them with the exception of the dietary laws and the SDA false tithing system. The SDA take on Col 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; means to SDAs that the spoken words of the Sinai covenant were what was against the Israelites and were blotted out. Ellen in the passages below makes it clear that she believed, thus the church believes and you spouse Adventism, so you believe her writings, all that is immortal concerning the covenant laws are just the ten. How the dietary and tithing laws somehow escaped all the other rubble is quite disturbing

Colossians 2:14 so there is no misunderstanding says; "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." God did not speak the laws of the hand writing in ordinances to all the people did he? The laws in ordinances written in the book of the covenant that were against us was the penalty of sin (death) *Romans 6:23. These were laws given to Moses that he wrote in the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 that Jesus nailed to the cross at His death by paying the sacrifice and penalty for our sins with His own blood as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world and an end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices of the Levitical Priesthood (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) and not Gods 10 commandments as you teach Bob. If Jesus came to abolish God's 10 commandments there would have been no reason for Jesus to die on the cross. Your teachings of lawlessness (without law) here therefore is not biblical.

The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness corrupted the simple and significant service that God had appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship; therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark. {PP 364.3}
There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ “took ... out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, “Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.” Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law.... Verily I say unto you”—making the assertion as emphatic as possible—“Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God’s law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages. {PP 365.1}

Good quotes supported by the scriptures. What is it you do not believe here?

Being repeated does not render us to be under them. Actually, no place in all of the New Testament does it tell Gentiles we are under Sabbath requirements.

According to the scriptures in Romans 3:19-20 no one is "under the law" unless they stand guilty before God of breaking the law (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4). If we have through faith in believing and following God's Word repented from our known sins in breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments once we have received a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17 then we stand forgiven before God and no longer under the law standing guilty before God condemned by sin *1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-2; Proverbs 28:13. According to the scriptures however, if God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we reject God's Word in order to follow known unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come in Hebrews 10:26-31 (not something to take lightly).

Why do you keep totally denying Jn 15:9-14?????

Well that statement is not true. Where have I ever told you that I deny John 15:9-14? If I have never denied John 15:9-14 why are you pretending that I have? I do however deny your interpretation of these scriptures. As you try and teach that love is separate from Gods' law when the scriptures teach that love is not separate from Gods' law love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law (10 commandments) as our duty of love to both God and our fellow man. Jesus does not have a separate law to His fathers law as Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30). Your trying to divide the father against the son when the scriptures teach a kingdom that is divided against itself cannot stand *Luke 11:17-20. Jesus does not have different commandments to the Father and you have already been shown earlier through the new covenant scriptures that love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Perhaps you might need to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of this topic. Perhaps you might need to prayerfully re-visit your understanding of this topic Bob. God's Word disagrees with your words here.

Something to pray about.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The word "moral" is not found in the KJV Bible.Therefore, what you are claiming is an invention of men, instead of God..

According to the scriptures we can close our eyes and ears to seeing and hearing Gods Word if we choose to as shown in Isaiah 6:9-10. Jesus and Paul would quote Isaiah when they would share Gods' Word and people would closed their eyes and ears to hearing it in Matthew 13:15-16 and Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27. We should be careful here as all these scriptures are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come (I include myself here). You were shown in the scriptures that all of God's commandments are the standard of righteousness in Psalms 119:172 and that the Hebrew Word used here for "righteousness" means moral right doing.

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.< tsedeq MORAL RIGHT DOING >

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Righteousness H6664; צדק tsedeq; tseh'-dek; From H6663; the right, natural, MORAL or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

So all Gods' commandments are the standard of moral right doing.

Now you want to change the goal posts and say the word "moral" is not in the kjv of the bible therefore an invention of men despite being shown from the scriptures that this is not true and that in both the Greek and Hebrew scriptures "moral" is in both the old and new testament and is a definition of "righteousness" and "unrighteousness" (see post # 243 linked).

...............

Then we have this that was posted earlier that disagrees with your post here.

GREEK

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2239
ἦθος (ēthos | ay'-thos)
Derivation: a strengthened form of G1485;
Strong's: usage, i.e. (plural) moral habits

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G2239
G2239 — ἦθος ᾔθεος (ἐθους), τό (akin to ἔθος, probably from ἘΩ, whence ἧμαι, έ῾ζω (cf. Vanicek, p. 379)); custom, usage (cf. German Sitzen,Sitte); plural τά ἤθη morals, character (Latinmores) 1Co 15:33 from Menander; cf. Menander fragment, Meineke edition, p. 75. (Sir. 20:26 (25); 4 Macc. 1:29; 2:7, 21.)

Combined Word Definitions, BDB & Thayer - G2239
Original: ἦθος Transliteration: Ethos Phonetic: ay’-thos
Definition: 1. a customary abode, dwelling place, haunt, customary state 2. custom, usage, morals, character

.................

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF 1 CORINTHIAN 15:33

English Standard Version
Do not be deceived: Bad company ruins good morals.

King James 2000 Bible
Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.

New Heart English Bible
Do not be deceived. "Bad company corrupts good morals.

World English Bible
Don't be deceived! "Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

Berean Literal Bible
Do not be misled: "Bad companionships corrupt good morals.

New American Standard Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

NASB 1995
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

NASB 1977
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

Amplified Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

Christian Standard Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.

American Standard Version
Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

NET Bible
Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals.

New Heart English Bible
Do not be deceived. "Bad company corrupts good morals.

Weymouth New Testament
Do not deceive yourselves: "Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

World English Bible
Don't be deceived! "Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

...................

Of course you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave that between you and God to work through.

Take Care.

 

[BABerean2]

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.< tsedeq MORAL RIGHT DOING >

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:.

Indeed matches what Paul says latter to the Corinthians believers...

1 Corinthians 7:19 [19], Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

The "shadow law" of circumcision is not one of God's 10 commandments. "Circumcision was a physical sign of a new heart by faith pointing to God's new covenant promise of His law written in the heart through love (see Deuteronomy 30:6; Deuteronomy 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27). Your interpretation of the scriptures and teaching of lawlessness (without law or God's 10 commandments being abolished) has Paul in contradiction with Paul as shown above.

You may also want to consider Romans 8:4; Romans 13:8-10 which is also in disagreement with your teachings here as love is expressed through obedience to God's law according to the new covenant promise though faith *Romans 3:31. According to the scriptures we are not free to break Gods' law and live a life of disobedience to Gods' law. That is called sin and disobedience in the scriptures (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11). That teaching therefore is not biblical and according to the scriptures and those doing this are in danger of the judgement once they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and choose to reject God's Word in order to practice known unrepentant sin according to Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care

 

[BABerean2]

Your interpretation of the scriptures and teaching of lawlessness (without law or God's 10 commandments being abolished) has Paul in contradiction with Paul as shown above.

I have never claimed any such thing.

Do you follow the Commandments of Christ, or do you have no standard?



Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. (How many sets of commandments?)


Are we without any law (antinomian) after we come into the New Covenant? After you are saved, is it OK to live like hell? Should there be a change in your life, or will your behavior still be rotten? If someone says they are under “Grace”, is that a license to do as they please?


1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (Holy Spirit=Master Teacher)


What is the standard of conduct revealed below by Christ?


Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

(What does this standard look like in real life? How do you want to be treated by others?)


Are the commandments of Christ a higher standard of conduct?


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Is it OK to go online and view inappropriate contentography?) Matt. 7:21-23 ?



New Covenant Commandments: How do we treat our brother?



1Jn_2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.


1Jn_2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.


1Jn_2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


1Jn_3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


1Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


1Jn_3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

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[LoveGodsWord]

I have never claimed any such thing.

Do you follow the Commandments of Christ, or do you have no standard?



Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. (How many sets of commandments?)


Are we without any law (antinomian) after we come into the New Covenant? After you are saved, is it OK to live like hell? Should there be a change in your life, or will your behavior still be rotten? If someone says they are under “Grace”, is that a license to do as they please?


1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (Holy Spirit=Master Teacher)


What is the standard of conduct revealed below by Christ?


Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

(What does this standard look like in real life? How do you want to be treated by others?)


Are the commandments of Christ a higher standard of conduct?


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Is it OK to go online and view inappropriate contentography?) Matt. 7:21-23 ?



New Covenant Commandments: How do we treat our brother?



1Jn_2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.


1Jn_2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.


1Jn_2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


1Jn_3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


1Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


1Jn_3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

.

According to the new covenant scriptures love is not separate from Gods’ law (10 Commandments) it is expressed through obedience to it by faith that works by love. So to say we are now free to break any one of God’s 10 commandment and say we are expressing love by doing so is not biblical according to the scriptures as sin (breaking God’s law) is what those who do not know God do according to 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10. God’s people therefore love God and keep His commandments as shown in the scriptures provided in John 14:15; John 15:10: 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

According to the scripture context that you have left out of 1 John 3:21-23 it is not pleasing in God’s eyes that we sin and break His commandments. Sin is defined early in 1 John 3:4 where is says “Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” It is not pleasing to God that we sin and the reason John is writing here is that we sin not in 1 John 2:1. In fact John goes on to say in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6 that we do not know God if we knowingly break his commandments and that sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Those who are born of God to love through faith do not practice sin according to 1 John 3:6-9. This is all context stated that leads into 1 John 3:23 in regards to love where love is also relevant as shown earlier in Matthew 22:36:40; Romans 13;8-10 and James 2:10-11

When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOR it is expressed through our actions.

If we LOVE our neighbour...

* Will we honor our parents?
* Will we not murder?
* Will we not commit adultery with our neighbor's spouse?
* Will we not steal from them?
* Will we not lie to them?
* Will we not covet what they own?

If we LOVE our God...

* Will we not have other Gods?
* Will we not make idols and worship them?
* Will we not take his name [follow] him in vain?
* Will we remember his seventh day Sabbath and keep it holy?

Do you agree that love is expressed in obedience to God's laws above? Now if your answer is yes then you agree with me. If your answer is no what kind of love are you talking about? Love without action is the same as faith without works that James calls the dead faith of devils in James 2:17-26.

....................

Jesus, Paul, James and John all agree that love is not separate from God's law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law and breaking God's law shows we do not love God or our fellow man and stand guilty before God of sin *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.....

MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

and again;

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Love is expressed in obedience to God's law not breaking Gods law according to Jesus, Paul and James. Paul goes on to say that we are saved by faith but faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in all those who truly believe Gods' Word

ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

and why JOHN says;

2 JOHN 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

and again here;

1 JOHN 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS [3], FOR THE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

and is why it is written;

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

1 JOHN 3:6 WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM

1 JOHN 3:9 [9], WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 JOHN 5:18 [18] We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

and why JESUS says;

JOHN 14:15 [15] IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

This is why Jesus says "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets" - Matthew 22:36-40.

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SUMMARY: So in summary love is not separate from obedience to Gods' law (10 Commandments). Love is expressed through obedience to God's law by not by breaking it. No one loves God according to the scriptures by being disobedient to His Word and breaking His commandments according to the scriptures. Do you agree with what has been shared with you here? If not why not. Your teachings of lawlessness (without law or teaching that God's 10 commandments are abolished) therefore has no basis in the scriptures and is not biblical. According to the new covenant scriptures it is through Gods 10 commandments that we have a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin. Of course this includes Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. No one therefore can claim to love God by breaking His commandments and is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments in John 14:15. John also defines what it means to love God when he says in 1 John 5:2-3 [2], By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3], For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[BABerean2]

So to say we are now free to break any one of God’s 10 commandment and say we are expressing love by doing so is not biblical according to the scriptures as sin (breaking God’s law) is what those who do not know God do according to 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10.

Anyone who quotes from 1 John and ignores the definition of "His commandments" below, is once again trying the old "bait-and-switch" strategy of the used car salesman.

You are attempting to switch the Old Covenant which is now "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, in place of "His commandments" in the passage below.


1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

How many times have you used this same strategy on this forum?

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[LoveGodsWord]

Anyone who quotes from 1 John and ignores the definition of "His commandments" below, is once again trying the old "bait-and-switch" strategy of the used car salesman.

True it is important to believe and follow Gods' Word...
1 John 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3], FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: AND HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT GRIEVOUS.

You are attempting to switch the Old Covenant which is now "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, in place of "His commandments" in the passage below.

Not at all. It is your understanding of what you think the old covenant is that is the problem. Let me ask you again, Do you know what laws made up the old covenant? You quoted Exodus 34:28 previously and yes the 10 commandments were included in the old covenant but were they the only laws included in the old covenant? -NO! If not what other laws made up the old covenant and what is now obsolete in the new covenant? It is the Mosiac laws for remission of sins and the shadow laws that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant (the laws of the Levitical Priesthood and the earthly Sanctuary; the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings; the laws of the Feast days; the laws of circumcision etc) see *Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

It is true that the new covenant is not the same as the old covenant so how has it now changed? Jesus is now our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. What has the Mosaic book of the law have to do with the old covenant *Exodus 24:7? (Hint: The answer to these questions is written in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 and Exodus 20:4) - It holds all the shadow laws for remission of sins.

You mix up the shadow laws for remission of sins from the old covenant with Gods eternal law (10 commandments) in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. According to the scriptures in the new covenant if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. So of course we are also talking about Gods' 4th commandment here as Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 7:7.

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many to break Gods' 4th commandment. According to Jesus if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are now worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. If we are now worshiping God by following man-made teachings and traditions then who are we worshiping?

1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
How many times have you used this same strategy on this forum?.

As posted earlier your just repeating yourself again while ignoring what was posted to you without addressing the scriptures in the post that disagree with your teachings of lawlessness (without law). According to the scriptures shared with you, love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to God's law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 15:10, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Ignoring Gods' Word according to the very Words of Jesus does not make it disappear. It becomes our judge come judgment day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. So we should be careful not to ignore the scriptures that disagree with us. No one loves God therefore while breaking God's commandments according to the scriptures. As John says "little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" 1 John 3:7. So we are deceiving ourselves if we believe that we stand righteous before God in disobedience to what Gods' Word says. This is the same as thinking we know God while breaking Gods' commandments. John says in 1 John 2:3-4 we are lying, do not know God and the truth is not in us.

Something to pray about.

 

[Bob S]

Have you noticed that LGW never uses 1Jn3 19-24 in any of his posts? The same is true with Jn15: 9-14. 1Jn3 tells us: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

What LGW is trying to teach is diametrically opposed to God's Word according to 1Jn.

One thing for certain, my heart has never coaxed me to observe the Israelite only Sabbath. The only reason I tried to observe the Sabbath was because of man's coaxing. My heart was never in it and now I know the reason.