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Featured Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HRDJ, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 28:18-20

    "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

    Not important?

    Forgive me...
    You could be quoting the prayers from Ricky Bobby in "Talladega Nights" for all I know.

    Forgive me...
     
  2. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Where is it written that grace comes through anything other than Christ's one time, finished and all sufficient sacrifice for sin? Which Scripture says we receive by faith.

    Indeed we will and I never said otherwise. Life is not easy for anyone and Jesus warned us that just as the world hated Him it will also hate us because we belong to Him, not the world.

    How could resting in Christ and knowing we are saved because of Him ever lead to spiritual death? On the contrary, spiritual death comes through believing that Christ's sacrifice was not enough or that we cannot have assurance in Him.

    Not to be saved, no.

    Indeed, there is nothing we can do, other than cry out to God and turn to Him in faith, trusting in Christ. However, it does not follow that we therefore do nothing with the salvation we have received, and no one who truly understands the goodness and mercy of God that has been extended to them in Christ will ever say so.

    What the devil loves is to whisper his age old question, "hath God really said? He seeks only to kill and destroy. He does not want anyone to rest in Christ or have any assurance of salvation, he wants them always working for it, always insecure, always doubting.

    So yes, I will go ahead and feel at ease, because Christ is my Sabbath and I will "rest" in Him. Jesus has not failed to save me and my salvation is in His hands, not my own. The works I do and the life I live in Him is my "good and reasonable service."

    Where is your hope then? In yourself and your own efforts? Or in Christ, Who has fought and won the battle for your salvation and calls you to rest in Him?

    I'm truly sorry that you feel that anyone who puts all their hope and faith in Christ and none in themselves for salvation has a "hollow", "empty" hope.

    But that's your choice I suppose.
     
  3. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1Co 11:29

    For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

    Not of any importance? If we don't partake of the the body we are not part of the body.

    Forgive me...
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    So
    “When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:12‬ ‭NLT‬‬
     
  5. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Baptism follows saving faith.
     
  6. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Salvation is in fact the same for everyone. There is only one Way to be saved. Jesus Christ.
     
  7. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    What Paul was referring to in those verses is what some believers were doing in treating the Lord's Supper like a common meal. There were some who were even getting drunk. Paul was chastising them for their lack of respect and reverence for the Lord.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  8. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Believing in Christ's one time, all sufficient, finished sacrifice is what saves us, we are born again and pass from death to life. Thereafter He works in us, through the Holy Spirit, and we become more and more like Him, growing in His grace. This is not even possible, however, unless we have been born again and received the Holy Spirit.
     
  9. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. A Hebrew Bible "day" is the period from sunset to sunset. It is divided in Hebrew into two parts, the light part, also called "day", and the dark part, called "night".

    The Hebrew day begins with the night, passes through the light of day, and ends with the next night.

    It is not 24 hours long. The 24 hour day is pure convention. It is a sunset-to-sunset event.

    Which means, in the northern Sapmi of my forebears, that when the sun sets on the solar day of November 21st, and rises again for the first time 61 solar days later, on January 21st, that ONE Hebrew day has passed when the sun sets again on the evening of January 21st.

    Similarly, when the sun sets on May 17th, starting a new Hebrew Bible day, and then sets again 70 solar days later, on July 26th, one single Biblical day has passed, sunset to sunset.

    So, the solar year for my cousins in northern Sapmi is 365.25 days long, same as anywhere else on earth, but the Biblical calendar year in only 236 days long, because two of the days are 61 and 70 revolutions of the earth, respectively, without a sunset (or sunrise), either because the sun never rises to set (the "long night") or never sets to rise (the "midnight sun").

    This is why I know that the Law of Moses should be read exactly as written: for Hebrews in Canaan, and that it was never intended for anybody else.

    Many Christians ignore the parts where God, over and over, makes it explicit that in the law of Moses he is talking to Hebrews, and tells them that IF they do all in it, they will get a farm in Israel (there is no promise of an afterlife at all in the Torah).

    Many Christians have built a religion on the thought that the "Law of God" for all of mankind was given at Sinai but then applied to all, and moderated, by Jesus. This is obviously false - first of all because the Law of Moses SAYS ON ITS FACE that it is only for the Hebrews - its STATED PURPOSE is a contract to give the Hebrews a farm in Canaan - but more importantly because if it is for all mankind, then my people were always excluded from salvation. After all, we followed the commandment to fill ALL the land, by living North of the Arctic Circle. But that fact means that we must eat animal fat - agriculture is impossible. The primary staple, traditionally, is animal fat and some shellfish (for those by the sea). It's not possible (before modern transport) to eat unleavened bread, because it's not possible to grow anything by which to make bread. And of course it is not possible to keep any sort of absolute Sabbath day rest, without even lighting a fire (or tending it), because a Hebrew Saturday that falls on November 22nd means no cooking, or heating, or work, or even leaving the tent, for SIXTY SOLAR DAYS. And another SEVENTY SOLAR DAYS if Saturday falls on July 27th.

    If the Sabbath were for all mankind, and the dietary laws, and not just for Jews in Israel, then the Sami are intentionally excluded from Salvation by God because of where we live. That, in essence, is what any sort of Judaizing really MEANS, concretely. Obviously, then, the worship of the old Noaidi customs would be superior, in such a case, to worship of (or even belief in) a God who damned us from the moment of our conception - because of where we were to be born - and gave no way to propitiate him, no sacrifice or action on our part that would mean anything. Such a God would be like aging - an implacable, irresistible foe who offered neither hope of anything better, nor any means to

    That's why I know, for sure, that the Old Testament laws never were intended, at any point in history before or after Christ, to apply to anybody but Hebrews living in the land of Israel, first off because they SAY THAT on their very face, and second because if they really are intended for all of us, then Sami are damned unless we abandon our homeland, and if the Christian God is said to demand that, it's obvious that he doesn't exist at all and we have no need for him.

    The Christian God DOES exist, and he never demanded that anybody but the Hebrews in Israel keep the sabbath or the dietary laws. This is obvious (a) by reading the text, and (b) to anybody on earth who lives above the Arctic Circle (and (c) anybody else on earth with a brain, whether he reads the text or not, who considers the fifth of the world's surface above and below the Arctic and Antarctic circles. If our religion makes those "no go" zones, our religion is false and needs to be replaced with something real.)(Our religion DOESN'T make those "No Go" zones - that's my point - but Judaized Christianity DOES - which is why I know that it's utterly false, a dead end, and useless belief set, for me and mine anyway).

    The Torah applied to one single people in one geographic place. The God who gave it sent his Son to call everybody to follow HIM, not the Torah. All that is lost if the Old Testament is discarded is the historical record of what came before the Son. There is not one single applicable law in the Bible before Matthew.

    Anybody who says otherwise cannot read the plain text.
    And anybody who is illiterate like that, in the process, rejects the possibility of salvation for all Sami and all Inuit and all Chukchi, and Evenk and the rest of the people of the far North.

    Obviously no Arctic people have any use for a religion that damns them outright because of the geography of their birth.

    Equally obviously, if Moses' laws still apply today, Jews are excluded by God from ever living in the far North.

    (Why anyone would WANT to live in the far North is an entirely separate (and entirely reasonable) question. But that's more of a question of sanity than theology.)

    Anyway, I thought I would write that, because Sami like me are proof in the flesh that all Judaizing is false religion - OR that we were born to be damned. And if that is the case, then we have no need or time for the religion that says so.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    We shouldn't limit our brethren to only people who know God's word. We should help those that don't understand His word. Even isis members can be saved. I like to try to always remember Jesus' two most important commandments. Love and honor God and love each other as Jesus loves us. Jesus also taught us to love and pray for our enemies.
     
  11. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    I don't think it's doctrine, but Peter, Andrew, James and John, we're told, were uneducated fishermen. We don't know about the upbringing of the others.
     
  12. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    True, we are not brothers. I stand in a room of learned, but the learning is different. I don't know what you know. You don't know what I know. There is overlap.

    So it is true, we are not brothers. But we are first cousins. And I am very fond of my first cousins.
     
  13. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    I know, dang it. It'd be great if I could hourly bill my time spent on CF!
     
  14. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Jesus took random people, fishermen, and began a church with them. While I hold Benedict XVI in very high esteem as a theologian, the Church was started without educated theologians.
     
  15. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Even the RCC of today, which still has a lot of things that I question, is better for what happened after Martin Luther nailed his document to the door.

    There was far to much power and corruption and far to little salvation in that early "church".
     
  16. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Actually, in the most basic of basic salvation..... you need nothing more than that..... knowledge of your sin, acceptance that Christ is your savior, repentance and a desire to live like Christ.

    You think Christ is going to condemn a person that does that?
     
  17. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Wasn't Luke a doctor too?
     
  18. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    The first two things you say are true: there was too much power and too much corruption.
    The third thing is not: there was salvation then, among those flawed men, just as there is salvation now.
    Because THAT comes from God IN SPITE of what men deserve. Thank God!

    "We all got it comin', kid." - Will Munny
     
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  19. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    You don't even need that. All that you need is for God to say: "You're in." And he will do that however, and to whomever, he pleases, whenever he pleases. Christians who seek to bind God's judgment by their doctrine are foolish.

    God will do as he pleases, without limits. He is not consistent in the Bible, and he will not be consistent in the future either. He is a person, not a principle.

    That said, he did lay out a path that, if followed, will result in him saying "You're in." That doesn't mean that he won't let anybody else in. It merely means that if you listen to him and follow that path, you know that he won't say "Not you" to you.

    The path is narrow and hard, and you probably won't keep entirely to it. So he gave ways to be considered to be on the path even though you departed from it - to be forgiven for departing it. He promised that he'd respect these rules he laid out for you.

    He did NOT promise Christians that he would refuse to save everybody else. Christians say he did, to make themselves feel like a special club and feel superior to others, but they lie to themselves when they say that. THEY say it. HE never did.

    Jews lied to themselves in the same way. "We are the CHOSEN PEOPLE!" Yes, that's true - but chosen FOR WHAT? The only thing God promised them was a farm in Israel if (and only if) they followed a certain path. (And that path was in no way the same path that he provided for salvation.)

    It was the Jews who assumed "Because we are the CHOSEN PEOPLE, that we are chosen for salvation!", once salvation came into the picture. Nope. God never promised anybody salvation for following the laws of Moses. At Sinai God promised THOSE people there at that time, and their lineal circumcised male heirs, and nobody else on earth, a FARM in Israel, during THIS life, if they followed those rules. He promised NOTHING ELSE to them. So, if somebody follows the entirety of the laws of Moses, he will not be "saved" - because God never ever promised salvation for following the Torah. The ONLY THING he EVER promised was a FARM IN ISRAEL, and only for the linear biological heirs of those people at that mountain at that time.

    Following the entire Law of Moses is UTTERLY USELESS for everybody on earth. Do it all and you will not attain anything - no salvation, and no farm either (not since Titus tore down the Temple).

    The only thing God promised was that if you follow the path Jesus laid out, you would pass final judgment. That's the whole deal. Adding to it is a lie.

    Christians in all ages have always preferred to do something else - pretty much ANYTHING else - other than to focus on precisely what Jesus said and doing precisely that. Christians prefer to believe that they can substitute BELIEF for DOING. They also prefer to believe that they can substitute DOING for certain beliefs.

    Which means that actually virtually nobody really FOLLOWS Jesus, they talk about Jesus and do SOME of what he said, and CALL THAT following Jesus, but it ISN'T REALLY following Jesus.

    Which means that we are ALL in that state of the people who don't follow Jesus, because we only SAY we do, fervently, but we really DON'T. We're ALL in the same boat: God will save us if he wants to - the realm of discretion.

    Most Christians - including Catholics - don't believe the above. We'll all see in the end.

    Best thing to do: focus on exactly what Jesus said and DO THAT, first, before looking at what anybody else said.

    If you have wealth, pay off all of your debts (mortgages), trust God, and lend out all of it, without interest, to people you know who need it, and if they don't pay you back, let it go and don't take them to court. If you don't have wealth, don't lie, tell the truth, and keep your thoughts and actions chaste. That's actually all very hard to do.

    Oh, and don't believe anything that says that if you don't do THOSE things, which Jesus commanded, that believing something or doing something else will cut it and substitute for what Jesus said to do. It's a lie. It won't. You have to do what Jesus said. Only once you are DOING everything he said does your believing, per Paul, matter. Because if you are not doing what Jesus said, you don't REALLY believe. Belief means that you do. If you don't do, you don't believe. Jesus SAID THAT. And he meant that. No wonder people prefer to ignore that and read Paul.

    But that doesn't cut it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  20. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Really?

    John 20:1New International Version (NIV)

    The Empty Tomb
    20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.


    John 20:1King James Version (KJV)
    20 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

     
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