• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HRDJ, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,340
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Now, you all know that the history channel is never wrong.

    Forgive me...
     
  2. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    +950
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I think that first Persia and then Islam largely suppressed Oriental Orthodox Churches.

    And the conflict between Greeks & Italians predates even Julius Caesar. It appears to me to be a vicious cycle of Wrath fueled by Pride. Without taking sides, it remains factually true that the Greeks of Constantinople did sell 4,000 Italians as slaves to the Seljuk Turks after the "Massacre of the Latins" in 1182 AD (for which the sack of Constantinople in 1204 AD was viewed as revenge), implying some sort of vague financial ties.

    Deception at work amongst humanity is more sophisticated than any few paragraphs can describe. But I do perceive that the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD was an event of special and particular Spiritual importance in human history. For example, the economic sanctions & embargo afterwards imposed upon Europe by the Ottoman Turks impelled the Age of Exploration, which still defines the modern world and its politics to this day.
     
  3. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    +1,509
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    At some point, elevating a member of the laity to that role has got to be better than allowing a rogue priest to persist.
     
  4. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,340
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Shhh...Thats Orthodoxy.

    Forgive me...
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,937
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Mum's the word..........
    Thread split coming............
     
  6. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    +950
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I understand, that Martin Luther was so "inspired" by the notion of "Salvation by Faith alone" that he sought to excise the Epistle of James, the brother of the Lord, from canon.

    So, he had a really nice idea... which wasn't quite compatible with Scripture... so push comes to shove... and... James, the brother of the Lord, was apparently confused? If his epistle contained false doctrine, then was he a heretic (min'im) ?

    And, if so, then as "birds of a feather flock together" and "judge a tree by its collective fruit", what does that say about Joseph, Mary, & Jesus ?
     
  7. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    +1,509
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Okay. Never heard that one before. I'll have to search for more information on that notion, or do you have a source?

    It says nothing. We don't accept guilt by association. I thought we got over that one when they tried that accusation on Jesus.
     
  8. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,502
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes that analogy is useless. It's a stereotype. Someone could say that Hitler was German so all Germans are evil because birds of a feather flock together. People are responsible for their own actions and we shouldn't assume any group of people are bad people based on the actions of a single person in that group.
     
  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    +950
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The Ottomans financed Luther and other Protestants from the 16th century AD on. The outright alliance between Lutheran Germany and the Ottomans in the 19th-20th centuries AD only corroborates the claim.

    Instead of having to pay tithes to Rome (to defend Europe), they received rebates (effectively the sale price of southeastern Europe).

    For 600 years, Serbians, Bulgarians, & Romanians have thought that Luther was a selfish, individualistic, treacherous, betraying, back-stabbing tr8r who took blood money plundered from "their" lands because he "wasn't their keeper". The words I was told once were "betrayer of the gateway to (all) Europe".

    Not that anybody cares, but that's "what his next-door neighbors think of him", those who have "had to live next to him" so to speak.

    But that's the kind of ill-will dividing Europe that the Sultans paid for. Divide et imperare par excellence.

    EDIT: It would cost about 10 billion dollars to build St. Peter's Basilica today, enough to evoke Luther's comment about German gold flowing over the Alps to Rome to build it. However, during the same period, how much was spent defending Europe from the Ottoman empire?

    In modern terms, wars cost trillions of dollars. If so, Luther was being "penny wise but pound foolish", focusing on "pennies on the dollar". And if so, prima facie, his principle opposition was to the defense of Europe, 100x more than the construction of one building in one city.

    (Which construction, of building up Rome, I would interpret as a response to the Fall of Constantinople.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  10. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

    +950
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Luther's canon - Wikipedia

    Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.[5]

    "If Luther's negative view of these books were based only upon the fact that their canonicity was disputed in early times, 2 Peter might have been included among them, because this epistle was doubted more than any other in ancient times."[1] However, the prefaces that Luther affixed to these four books makes it evident "that his low view of them was more due to his theological reservations than with any historical investigation of the canon."

    Luther was so "inspired" by sola gratia, sola fide that he wanted to remove Scriptures which didn't agree with his "better ideas":

    • Epistle of James the Just, Bishop of Jerusalem, brother of the Lord
    • Epistle of Jude, brother of Jesus
    • Revelations, written by the hand of John "the beloved" Apostle (the only one to survive into the 2nd century AD and die a natural death)
    • Hebrews, written by Paul -- upon whose other Epistles, Luther based his sola gratia, sola fide... so I guess even Luther realized then that St. Paul "didn't bat 1.000" (?!)...
    Perhaps someday history will be the judge?
     
  11. Bob Crowley

    Bob Crowley Well-Known Member Supporter

    643
    +351
    Australia
    Catholic
    Married
    I'm a former Presbyterian like you, and I can tell you some of the things some Protestants say about Catholics and Catholicism is rubbish. To quote my old PROTESTANT Presbyterian pastor, "Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church", and "Protestants can be quite arrogant when it comes to the Catholic Church".

    He also said about the current state of Protestantism, "When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn't agree how far to spit." And he was a Protestant pastor, and a very highly regarded one at that, at least in local church circles.

    Your friend should read what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Works flow from Faith, and God expects us to carry out works. Read what Christ said about His being present in the "least of these my brothers" and how He will judge us on our practical response to their situation. What do they think the parable of Dives and Lazarus was all about?

    Yes, Catholics do go to heaven, although we believe most of us will spend some time in Purgatory, since we believe that nobody gets into heaven until he or she is literally perfect. I could quote my old Protestant pastor again about his doubts on whether Protestants get to heaven, but I'll keep it friendly.

    Anyone can attend a Catholic mass, provided they don't make a nuisance of themselves, and respect the proceedings, even if they don't fully understand or agree with them.

    We call the entire process the Eucharist. Communion is the actual partaking of the bread and wine, which we believe becomes the body and blood of Christ, when the priest asks the Holy Spirit to come upon them. The Catholic Church celebrates the Eucharist daily, whereas Protestant Churches vary a lot in their teaching. My Presbyterian Church when I was a member only celebrated Communion every three months.

    And no, you can't partake of the Catholic Communion, as you don't formally believe the bread and wine is the literal body and blood of Christ. It's also a reminder the body of Christ is divided ie. the Church is divided.

    You can however find the line heading towards the priest, and on approaching him, cross your arms over your chest, and he will give you a blessing.

    We ask them to pray or intercede for us. What do some of these Protestants think the saints and angels are doing up there? Nothing?

    The "Hail Mary" for example is made of 3 parts -

    1. "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" - equivalent to Gabriel's greeting to Mary at the annunciation.
    2. "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus" - more or less her cousin Elizabeth's greeting when Mary visited her.
    3. "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" - nothing more than a request for her prayer on our behalf. Ever asked your friends to pray for you?

    Mary, the saints and angels are doing something up there.

    Joseph is regarded as a saint, but he's hardly mentioned in the Gospels. I've got my own opinion on that. But when Christ said to His disciple as he looked down from the cross, "Behold, your mother!" and to His mother, "Behold, your son!", the disciple "whom He loved" was standing in as proxy for "all disciples whom He loved." In effect, Christ was appointing His mother as our spiritual mother. He then took her "into his home". And that's Christ expects us to do with His Mother - take her into our home, as our spiritual mother.

    She's also the queen of heaven viz. Revelation 12:1 NIV
    I suggest you read up on the miracle of Fatima in 1917, when Mary appeared to 3 children, accompanied by a dancing sun visible to 70,000 witnesses, which people could stare at for 10 minutes without even hurting their eyes, and in which ground saturated by hours of rain instantly dried, which normally would have required the same energy as a 10 megaton nuclear bomb.

    We teach that we don't know what their fate is, and we're not their judges. God is.

    What arrangements He's made for people who have had no chance to hear about Christ, or who do so in severely restricted circumstances, is up to Him. We don't know.

    Put it this way, if you or your Protestant (or for that matter Catholic) friends had been born in a Moslem country, you and they would almost certainly be Moslem. Is God just going to write them all off because they've had very little chance to hear about Christ, and what they have heard has been distorted? I fail to see how we could justify "God is love" in that case.

    Yes, evangelism is one thing we don't do very well. We've got a process here called the New Evangelism, but I don't think it's advancing very fast. Protestants do tend to evangelise more. We've left too much up to the priests and religious orders.

    Having said that, I think the religious orders underpin the church, as their prayers arise continually before God.

    If they ever disappear, the whole Church, Catholic and Protestant, will be in big trouble.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +15,490
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    I'm not sure you understand what corroborates means.

    If I tell you that lizard people rule the world and that Jurrasic Park corroborates this claim, you would rightly point out that's not how corroboration works and that it's entirely non-sequitur.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,502
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    This is exactly why not all noncatholic Christians should be referred to as Protestants. Most don't care what Martin Luther did or taught. My beliefs are based on the bible not Martin Luther but according to catholics I'm considered a Protestant. The term Protestant has become a stereotypical term used to discredit all noncatholic Christians by insinuating that they all have the same beliefs as Martin Luther. If someone asks me I say I'm a Christian. If they ask what denomination I say nondenominational because I'm only concerned with what the bible teaches. I see too many problems with most main stream denominations teachings. Some say you have to be baptized a certain way or you must speak in tongues or your not saved. I say RUBBISH!! John baptized with water but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Water and a priest or pastor aren't even necessary to be baptized by Jesus. You can baptize someone with water all you want but if the person isn't baptized in spirit it's just a bath.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  14. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

    +6,182
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Catholics like Protestants, typically don't conform completely to their category. Mis-belief isn't always un-belief. Salvation is mercy based, not merit based.
    Whose permission do you really need?
    Is your relationship with your local church more important than your relationship with God?
    (Beware "Churchianity".)

    If I'm not mistaken, Catholics won't even share the Eucharist (communion) with each other since 1054.
    Angels and saints have a multitude of purposes, but what makes you think they are going to help you if God won't? If you believe you have His ear, what business do you have with the others?
    Definitely get a copy of "Papal Sin - Structures of Deceit" by Catholic author and university professor Garry Wills. He devotes a whole chapter to it. I still haven't read his book "Why I'm Still Catholic".
    Arguable. They double-speak about having a works or merit based salvation (soteriology), in my opinion.
    Evangelism is hard to control, and they are big on control. The impulse gets channeled into works... again, in my opinion. A lot of Catholics here are hostile to me. I was raised Roman Catholic and knew in 1st grade catechism I was being bamboozled. By fourth grade when they tried to indoctrinate me with transubstantiation, I figured out I would have to keep my head down until I was old enough to walk away.

    I have read the bible cover to cover only seven times, so I'm no expert.
     
  15. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

    +6,182
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Do you believe they can have a relationship with Jesus if they have never heard his name or about the bible?
     
  16. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    +1,509
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    They seem to think that Martin Luther was our Pope. They also seem to think that we consider our denominations each as the "One True Church." They've certainly got their paradigm.
     
  17. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

    +9,471
    Non-Denom
    Yes, I find Catholic stereotypes of Protestants to be amazingly simplistic and quite common. OTOH, there are some Protestants who also simplistically stereotype Catholics, but I have not found them to be nearly as ubiquitous as their Catholic counterparts. Perhaps that is because I was raised as a religious minority in a very Catholic city.
     
  18. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

    +6,182
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Some of us need permission so badly, we create elites to dole it out.
     
Loading...