• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Catastrophism

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    Do you think Christ is going to reign over a world when sin and death remain for 1,000 years, after His Second Coming, even though "the time of the judgment of the dead" is in Revelation 11:18?

    Do you think Christ is going to sit in a rebuilt temple with renewed animal sacrifices, even though there are no more sacrifices for sin in Hebrews 10:16-18?

    How many mortals do you think will be alive after Matthew 25:31-46?




    .
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,562
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Yes.
    Revelation 11:18 simply predicts the Judgement of the dead, which we are indisputably told in Revelation 20:15, will happen after the Millennium.
    Yes.
    The new Temple will have an Altar on which offerings and sacrifices for thanksgiving will be made. Isaiah 56:7, Zechariah 14:16-21
    There will be a vast multitude, who will gather before the glorious Return, into all of the holy Land. Revelation 7:9

    Bad to you for derailing my thread. What about trying to explain all the prophesies that say the Lord will send fire to destroy His enemies?
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married

    2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.




    Revelation 11:18


    (ESV) The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."


    (Geneva) And the Gentiles were angrie, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they shoulde be iudged, and that thou shouldest giue reward vnto thy seruants the Prophets, and to the Saintes, and to them that feare thy Name, to small and great, and shouldest destroy them, which destroy the earth.

    (Greek NT TR) και τα εθνη ωργισθησαν και ηλθεν η οργη σου και ο καιρος των νεκρων κριθηναι και δουναι τον μισθον τοις δουλοις σου τοις προφηταις και τοις αγιοις και τοις φοβουμενοις το ονομα σου τοις μικροις και τοις μεγαλοις και διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην

    (GW) The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

    (LITV-TSP) And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

    (KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    (KJV+) AndG2532 theG3588 nationsG1484 were angry,G3710 andG2532 thyG4675 wrathG3709 is come,G2064 andG2532 theG3588 timeG2540 of theG3588 dead,G3498 that they should be judged,G2919 andG2532 that thou shouldest giveG1325 rewardG3408 unto thyG4675 servantsG1401 theG3588 prophets,G4396 andG2532 to theG3588 saints,G40 andG2532 them that fearG5399 thyG4675 name,G3686 smallG3398 andG2532 great;G3173 andG2532 shouldest destroyG1311 them which destroyG1311 theG3588 earth.G1093

    (NKJV) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    (YLT) and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'

    .
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,562
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    There is nothing in these quotes that precludes the final Judgement happening after the Millennium. To think otherwise, is to contradict Revelation 20:15. You happy with that?

    The Judgement and resurrection in Revelation 20:4, is only for those who have been killed for their faith, during the Great Trib.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,562
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Shock and Awe: the Lord’s Day of Wrath -

    How bad will the Lord’s response to the attack of Psalms 83 be?

    When the sun explodes out a massive CME…. Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3

    When the Arm of the Lord descends in anger…..Isaiah 30:30, Zephaniah 3:8

    When He flashes lightning and fiery coals onto the earth. Deut. 32:22 & 34-43, Psalms 18:13-14

    When the Day comes, burning like a furnace. Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

    Most people have no conception of the worldwide devastation that will be caused by the hit upon the earth by the Lord’s fiery Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 29:6 What is prophesied will be so shocking, so terrifying, that it is impossible for us to really comprehend and only when it happens, will we realize the full extent of the damage done to the world and our modern infrastructure.

    There has never been a comparable natural disaster in recorded history. The nearest to it may be the continuous winters of 1883-87, caused by the ash clouds from Krakatoa, or some recent tsunamis. Only Noah’s flood really compares, but fortunately this time we have God’s promise to never again destroy man and animals so extensively. Genesis 9:16 Many people will die, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3, but most will survive.

    As the survivors come out from under whatever shelter they have found, Isaiah 2:20-21, Revelation 6:15, there will be little, if any light for weeks or months. Amos 5:20, Zephaniah 1:15 Most buildings will be destroyed by earthquake and fire, Isaiah 24:18, Zephaniah 3:8 and huge tsunamis will wipe out all coastal cities and towns. Jeremiah 51:42, Amos 9:6

    Normal mains electricity supply will not be restored for years. Only small generators will be able to supply power and these will soon run out of fuel, as will all motor transport. Line telephone systems and radio communication may be set up fairly quickly, but mobile phones and internet may never be re-established.

    The world will slowly recover and in order to regain control and normal services, a 10 region One World Government will be organized. Daniel 7:23-24 However, those who have maintained their faith and trust in the Creator God during this time of testing have the promises of His redemption and their gathering into all of the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 30:3, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, Zechariah 10:8, Hosea 11:10-11, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 49:8-23, Jeremiah 23:3-4, Psalms 69:35-36, Colossians 1:11-12, Revelation 7:9-14
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    Are you happy with the multiple other passages that you have to ignore to make your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20 work?

    You seem to think "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, is not really "the time of the judgment of the dead"...


    You are re-interpreting the whole Bible to make the Premill doctrine, and your CME theory work.

    You have to change 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 from the Son, to the sun.

    Did you ever consider the fact that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order?
    We know that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in chapter 19.






    .
     
  7. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    Quite the contrary
    Link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophism
    Excepts:
    Catastrophism was the theory that the Earth had largely been shaped by sudden, short-lived, violent events, possibly worldwide in scope.[1] This was in contrast to uniformitarianism (sometimes described as gradualism), in which slow incremental changes, such as erosion, created all the Earth's geological features. Uniformitarianism held that the present was the key to the past, and that all geological processes (such as erosion) throughout the past were like those that can be observed now. Since the early disputes, a more inclusive and integrated view of geologic events has developed, in which the scientific consensus accepts that there were some catastrophic events in the geologic past, but these were explicable as extreme examples of natural processes which can occur.

    Catastrophism held that geological epochs had ended with violent and sudden natural catastrophes such as great floods and the rapid formation of major mountain chains. Plants and animals living in the parts of the world where such events occurred were made extinct, being replaced abruptly by the new forms whose fossils defined the geological strata. Some catastrophists attempted to relate at least one such change to the Biblical account of Noah's flood.

    The concept was first popularised by the early 19th-century French scientist Georges Cuvier, who proposed that new life forms had moved in from other areas after local floods, and avoided religious or metaphysical speculation in his scientific writings.[2][3]
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  8. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

    +3,744
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Single
    If only I had a dollar for every time someone claimed what you claim I could retire.
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,562
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    So do you think Jesus is one of the spirits who assembles the armies at Armageddon?

    The general theme of Revelation is a consecutive narrative. From the Ascension of Jesus, to the New Heavens and New earth for Eternity. There are some flashbacks to fill in details, for instance Revelation 14 goes back to just after the Sixth Seal and verses 14-20 are the Sixth Seal event.
    I see Revelation 18 as also happening in the Sixth Seal.

    One Day, it will happen and retirement will be right out of the picture!
    I realize that very few will get what the Prophets have so clearly and carefully told us will happen. My hope is that when it does, at least you will have read what I have posted and will know that the Lord has instigated it. On that Day, we are told to; Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    No.

    The Second Coming of Christ is found with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of chapter 6.

    And at the 7th trumpet and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18.

    And in the "harvest" of chapter 14.

    And when He comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15-16.

    And in chapter 19.

    And when the fire comes at the end of chapter 20.


    .
     
  11. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    The harvest made by Jesus mentioned in Revelation 14:14-16...is Jesus IN HEAVEN who will harvest the SOULS of the believers who will be beheaded [KILLED]because they will refuse to worship the Beast and his image and who will refuse to take the mark...


    Revelation 14:9-16
    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, BLESSED Are The DEAD which DIE In The Lord From Henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    Who is found in verse 14, and where is He harvesting in the next two verses?

    .
     
  13. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    On a cloud ....Jesus will harvest the SOULS of those AMONG the believers who will be beheaded ON THE EARTH because they will refuse to take the mark and will refuse to worship the beast and his image.

    There will be another reaping that will follow the reaping made by Jesus.
    Revelation 14:17-20
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

    18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

    20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,562
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    This idea is totally wrong and does not fit with the scriptures.

    It should be obvious to everyone on earth with access to news information that some kind of cataclysmic event will probably occur in the near future. The lessons of history, over population, natural disasters and the preparedness of nations for war are all dire warning signs for us. But we who study the Bible can, and should know what the prophets tell us about the end of this age. Amos 3:7

    The Book of Revelation tells us about a sequence of terrible events called the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgements and we note that the Sixth Seal is referred to as ‘the great Day of the Lord’s wrath’. Then the Seventh Seal is a time gap in heaven of ‘about a ½ hour’. This calculates to about 20 years of earth time, using the one day in heaven = 1000 years on earth formula. This will allow for all that must happen until the glorious Return of Jesus.

    Therefore, the Sixth Seal is the event that the Lord intends to use in order to punish the nations, who at present conspire to annihilate Israel. Their attack and its consequences are prophesied in Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12. Prophecies that parallel the Sixth Seal are; Isaiah 34:4the sky rolled up like a scroll’, Isaiah 2:21hide in caves, etc’, Zeph.1:14 ‘The Day of the Lords wrath, a Day of doom and disaster’, then in Amos 1 – it says how the Lord will send fire to destroy the Ishmaelite peoples [those mentioned in Psalm 83] for all their crimes. There are over 70 verses in the Bible that speak of a forthcoming fire judgement and most of them state clearly that it is the Lord Himself who instigates this fire. Joel 1:15 & 19 ‘The Day of the Lord comes, a mighty destruction from the Almighty and fire has consumed the trees and pastures.

    Habakkuk 3:12 Furiously, You traverse the earth, in anger, You trample on the nations.

    Isa. 66:15-16 The Lord will judge with fire....He will test all mankind, many will be slain.

    How He will do this, is told to us in Isaiah 30:26-30 where it is undeniably written about ‘a devouring fire, from the Lord Himself’, that is caused by ‘the sun shining seven times stronger’. This can only be a Coronal Mass Ejection; something that the earth has experienced in the past and is expected to happen again, that can have worldwide devastating consequences - a seemingly natural occurrence that will maintain the hidden-ness of the Lord. With this scenario in mind, many other prophecies make sense, passages like Ezekiel 20:47-48, about a fire in the Land, kindled by the Lord, and 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, where Peter says: ‘The Day of the Lord will come like a thief, the Day the heavens disappear and flames bring all the earth to judgement’. Psalms 18:7-15

    The four best passages that describe the Return of Jesus in His glory, to commence His Millennial reign and visible to all and NOT as a thief and unexpectedly, are; Zechariah 14:3-15, Matthew 24:27-31, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 19:11-19.

    We are told that on the Day Jesus Returns; ‘the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord’, Rev. 16:14, there will be an earthquake, but only in Jerusalem and that Jesus will destroy the attacking army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word. He then gathers His faithful people from around the earth and commences His Millennium reign. These four descriptions do not mention a worldwide fire judgement and as the world will have just experienced the Great Tribulation, for that judgement to occur at the same time as the Return, is simply not said to happen then, as well as being unnecessary and illogical.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    How many times in the history of the universe do you expect the sun to turn black and the stars fall to the earth, as is found in both Matthew chapter 24 and Revelation chapter 6?

    How many times ?

    It is the same number of times that the Son of God will return "in flaming fire", as found in 2 Thessalonian 1:7-10

    .


    .
     
  16. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    What if the stars in Revelation 6 [6 Th Seal] and Matthew 24:29-31 are not literal stars ?
    Remember the Book of Revelation is full of symbols...

    As for Matthew 24:29-31
    The stars are the angels of God who will make the gathering of the elect at the Coming of Jesus in the CLOUDS in Glory AFTER the Tribulation of those Days.
    Matthew 24:31
    31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Sorry BAB ,no destruction of the earth at the 6TH seal ....Jesus will come in Flaming Fire to destroy all those who will have taken the mark and who will have worshiped the beast and his image UNTO His Coming mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 which is the same Coming that Matthew 24:29-31...
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    You are correct above about the word "stars" in Matthew chapter 24.


    Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Christ said the word "stars" is also a symbol of the angels in the Book of Revelation.

    Thanks for helping prove my point.

    .
     
  18. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    Prove your point about what ?

    You believe that literal stars the size of our Sun and even bigger will literally fall on the Earth at the 6Th Seal Revelation 6:12 and in Matthew 24:29-31.

    Have you ever seen a BIG meteor shower ?
    index.jpeg

    ..that will be the stars falling from the sky that John describe at the 6TH Seal Revelation 6:12
    Revelation 6:12
    12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.

    For the record the blood moon of the 6Th Seal will reflect a light.
    bloodmoon.jpeg

    While that in Matthew 24:29-31 the Moon will not reflect any light at all.

    2 different events...separated by many years.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,788
    Christian
    Married
    I have never said that the "stars" in those two passages are like our sun.

    The "stars" in both of those passages are angels, as revealed by Christ in Revelation 1:20.

    You cannot allow them to be the same event, because it destroys you doctrine.

    Forget about the moon, because you deny that the moon changes its brightness during a blood moon, even though no unbiased witness to a lunar eclipse would ever say such a thing. Within a few hours the moon goes from its maximum brightness, to being extremely dim, because it is in the shadow of the earth. Try standing in full sunshine and then get in the shadow of a large tree and see if you notice a change in the brightness of the light.

    How many times in the history of the universe will the sun turn black, and the stars(angels) fall to the earth?


    How many times? Just one...

    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  20. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for the precision.
    Or in Revelation 12:4 when it is said that Satan draweth with him 1/3 of the stars...making refrence to Lucifer original rebellion.
    4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:


    Yes,the Moon change its brightness during a blood moon...
    However Jesus in Matthew 24:29 who is talking about His Coming is clear ,the MOON will not have ANY BRIGHTNESS ...

    29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened,
    and the moon shall not give her light,

    Can you see the difference ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
Loading...