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Can you lose your salvation??

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Sandman777, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    uhh
    misdoulos
    it doesnt make sense to say those people in hebrews 6.4-6 werent really saved.

    they actually "tasted" and "partook".
    and had actually "repented (which means to actually stop sinning, not simply confession)" before.

    these couldnt have been people who only claimed to be christians read it. they couldnt have been.

    they "partook of the holyghost" that doesnt happen to people who arent saved.

    the bible tells us in several places of how god actually BLOTS OUT a name from his book where the rightouse are written.
    as in
    the name was there, and no longer is.
    and to say god wrote your name there becuase you claimed to be a christian, and then erased it when he figured out that you werent is to call god stupid.

    the names where in the book, god would have never put them there if they werent genuine christians.
     
  2. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    I respect your opinion as I have stated before, however, I respectfully disagree. There is nothing more to be said. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours.

    I'll move out of the way and let Scripture speak for itself. See my previous posts on this thread.
     
  3. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Psalms 22.3, I never made this statement. I went back and looked at all of my posts and don't know what you're referring to.

    Show me where I've made this statement.
     
  4. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    mis doulos
    you said
    "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
    (Eph. 4:30)

    what do you think "do not greive" means? what would this cause if you did?

    that word sealed actually means
    "to confirm ownership"
    it is not saying that it is sealed or set in stone that you will be saved.
    it simply saying that holyspirit confirms to you that you are gods.

    yet if you only read the scripture youll see there is a possibility of "greiving him".

    the verse is saying
    the holyspirit brings you confirmation of your salvation, so dont grieve him.

    it is not saying that he has set your salvation in stone.
     
  5. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    you replied to my statement about hebrews6.4-6 with this statement.
    "For those who claim to be Christian at one time and have left the faith for good, these have never been saved"

    im simply saying that doesnt apply to hebrews 6.4-6

    those scriptures clearly show a christian reaching a place of no longer having god.
    losing their salvation.
     
  6. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Psalms 22.3, you still haven't answered my question. First of all, prove to me that I've made the above statement. Where is it? You're mistaken, Psalms 22.3, I did not make such a statement. I would appreciate your retraction as you made a "big to do" about it.

    Your reference to Eph. 4:30 is speaking to those Christians who refuse to turn from their old ways of sin and turn toward God's righteousness ways of the new life. (The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1811).

    Well, Psalms 22.3, what do you think "grieving the Holy Spirit means? It is sinning against God, plain and simple.


    Firstly, Psalms, "sealed for the day of redemption" means that the Holy Spirit guarantees our salvation when a person accepts Christ as personal Lord and Savior. It does not mean people will be saved. The word "sealed" is past tense; hence, the act of redemption by God has already occurred when the believer is saved and is guaranteed eternal salvation by the Holy Spirit.

    Secondly, believers are not gods. Where does the Bible say this? Show me Scripture. Let Scripture speak.
     
  7. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Psalms, this is the entire post that you took liberty to add a verse from Hebrews that isn't even mentioned here. I don't know where you ever got the idea I was referring to Hebrews. Can you find it here?

    If not, I would appreciate an apology on your end for adding words and making accusations that are not true at all.

    Let's get our facts straight before making any false statements.
     
  8. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Just want to leave this Scripture verse with all believers which the Lord has placed on my heart today.

    "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
    (Matt 7:6)

    I am thankful to Father God that my redemption is sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit. I can rest assured I will be in Heaven someday. Hallelujah and praise God!!!

    We need to pray for the unsaved.

     
  9. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    what the heck?
    you done lost me.
    an apology for what? i did you no wrong.
    calm down.

    ok,
    i posted hebrews 6.4-6
    right after that you posted
    ...For those who claim to be Christian at one time and have left the faith for good, these have never been saved, IMHO...

    ok? if i was wrong for saying you said that then im sorry, dont get angry.

    so then, do you agree that the people who cannot return to repentance in hebrews 6.4-6 were originally saved?

    sealed= means to stamp.
    it simply means the holyghost confirms your salvation.
    as long as the holyspirit is present then "YES YOU ARE SET FOR SALVATION" but it isnt saying you cant lose your salvation or lose you inheritance in heavon as rev.22 speaks of.
    because you can cause the holyspirit to depart from you, leaving you with no seal.

    what would greiving the holyspirit mean?
    to grieve is to make one sorrowful or sorry or to cause grief.
    sin yes.
    and you didnt answer my question.
    what would this cause?
    it would certainly cause him to depart.
    it is the unforgivable sin, of blaspheming the holyspirit. it is absolutely unforigivable.


     
  10. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    ok.
    i realise your saying the holyspirit seals us for eternity.
    i do agree that the holyspirits presence in our lives guarantees salvation.
    do you think we could ever have him depart from us?

    like
    if we "crucified jesus again to ourselves, and put him to an open shame"?
     
  11. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    I’d like to get in on this but it seems there are so many verses being thrown around I
    don’t know whether to duck or get a bat.

    I build a Bible doctrin by making a platform. I can not leave any planks on the ground,
    they all have to fit. So all the verses have to be looked at and I see where they fit in my
    platform. I use the clear verses first. I believe we can interpret the difficult ones in the
    light of the clear ones.

    I see that we all agree that we did not save ourselves.
    John 1:12-13
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
    even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
    but of God.
    (KJV)

    This seems clear. It is also God that secures our salvation.
    John 10:27-30
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
    man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck
    them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
    (KJV)

    So far I think we agree. Now it seems some believe we can voluntarily give back our
    salvation. So let’s look at
    Heb 6:4-6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the
    heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify
    to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    (KJV)

    Who is the “once enlightened” ones. Well it is the Hebrews that have heard the word of
    God and seen his miracles , the Judeisers also. How do I know that? Let’s look at another
    place the writer of Hebrews uses this term.
    Heb 10:32
    32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye
    endured a great fight of afflictions; Photizo is the greek word used for inlightened
    and also for illuminated. He is writing to the “Hebrews” so “ye” must be “Hebrews
    .
    The key to understanding this verse is to follow the idea that is being developed from
    the preveous verses. If you notice he is talking about not teaching about the basics again.
    He will if time permits
    Heb 6:1-3
    1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto
    perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith
    toward God,
    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the
    dead, and of eternal judgment.
    3 And this will we do, if God permit.
    (KJV)

    Now he goes on to develope a new deeper idea. The idea that if the Hebrews that have
    tasted Gods word, etc. and fall away (the word “if” is not in the greek) that is reject the
    gospel, will not be renewed seeing how they would be like the ones that crucified Jesus.
    They would have been in the crowd chanting “crucify him, crucify him”.
    Is he saying this is possible? Is he warning us that it is? I think he was addressing the
    Judaeisers that were trying to go back to the old ways of the Law. They would have to
    reject that Jesus fulfilled the law and he was the final sacrifice. I usually don’t like the
    living Bible but it does a good job this time.
    Heb 6:4-6
    4 There is no use trying to bring you back to the Lord again if you have once
    understood the Good News and tasted for yourself the good things of heaven and shared
    in the Holy Spirit,
    5 and know how good the Word of God is, and felt the mighty powers of the world
    to come,
    6 and then have turned against God. You cannot bring yourself to repent again if
    you have nailed the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to
    mocking and to public shame.
    (TLB)
    Here is a similar verse.
    2 Pet 2:20
    20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge
    of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
    latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    (KJV)

    The tasters and pollution escapers are them that hear and understand the knowledge of
    the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and choose to reject. Seeing how this is the only way to
    God they can never be renewed to a proper repentance and salvation.


    So far that’s the way I see it and it fits my platform just fine.
     
  12. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Psalm 22.3, I accept your apology.

    Am posting the whole post in question again, so there will be no doubt as to what was said:

    The statement I made was referring to Matt. 13:1-9 (Parable of the Sower). Do you see that above? Reference is being made to the seeds on stony ground. They have no roots and eventually fell away. Anyway, the point being made is about those who looked like they were saved but left the faith and never returned. These, IMNO, were never saved in the first place.

    "So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."
    (Matt. 20:16)

    "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
    (Matt. 7:13,14)

    I will say it once more and once more only. The Word of God is my authority and is the truth. If Hebrews or any other book is written to Christians, then so they are Christians. My dispute is not with Scripture.


    Psalms, you haven't answered my question as to where in Scripture does it say we are gods. My friend, you are in grave Scriptural error.

    We were never created as gods and will never be gods. Satan wanted to be equal with God and guess what happened to him?

    I would suggest you rethink your position.



    [This message has been edited by MizDoulos (edited 03 January 2002).]
     
  13. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Hi, rkbo:

    The main question here is: Can a Christian lose his salvation?

    Perhaps you've already read the posts on the first page, but if not, do go back and read them. I've posted many Scriptures regarding this issue, but somehow, this discussion has gotten off track.

    Those who believe Christians can lose their salvation are entitled to their own interpretation and opinion. I see the opposite in Scripture. So be it. We need to respectfully disagree.

     
  14. john316

    john316 Member

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    Hi guys and gals,

    To be honest, in this issue there are 2 camps: those who believe "once saved, always saved" and those who believe "once saved, not always saved".

    The arguments for and against each side are strong and appear valid. So like Ms. Doulos said, "let's agree to disagree". For what it's what it's worth, I know I am saved, and God will not forsake me as long as I keep turning back to him. [​IMG]

    Peace! Let us as Christians be united as God's body! [​IMG]
     
  15. fran

    fran Member

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    As long as all of us have assurance of salvation. I KNOW I am saved, because I believe in Jesus Christ. That's the bottom line. [​IMG]
     
  16. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    This forum is all about discusions and I think if we would slow down and look at it piece by piece we'd come to a concensus.

    Words like sealed
    want to be my nf4972 sphragizo (sfrag-id'-zo);

    from 4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest:

    KJV-- (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

    Or earnest
    728 arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn');

    of Hebrew origin [6162]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:

    KJV-- earnest.

    These two words used in scripture describe security for the believer.

    The term eternal life itself. You don't have eternal life for awhile and then not have it or it wasn't eternal life to begin with.
     
  17. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    misdoulos
    haha, now i see what your talking about.
    gods. AS IN GOD'S, sorry, i left the apostrophe out. as in GOD OWNS YOU. you are HIS, haha.
    im not saying i am a god. "we are god's"
    my lord.

    rkbo
    it doesnt matter who he was talking to, he proved that people can
    actually taste god, experience god, partake of the holyspirit, actually be saved, because thats what those things mean, and then fall away.
    your thinking to much.

    it is anyone who is enlightened, not only certain people, me and you have been enlightened too havent we?
    and these people have partaken of the holyghost also, the holyspirit comes after your choice for salvation.

    THIS VERSE DOES NOT REPRESENT PEOPLE WHO ARENT FULLY SAVED OR REALLY DONT WANT TO BE SAVED, THESE PEOPLE ARE AS SAVED AS WE ARE!
    read
    ...and the POWERS of the age to come.
    that word power is dunamis.
    it is the power that we DO NOT RECEIVE untill we have been filled with the holyspirit as in acts 1.8 and that simply doesnt happen untill your fully saved.

    paul went to great lengths to show that these people were mature blood bought christains.


    and what about all the verses that speak of names being BLOTTED OUT of the book of life?
    actually being removed.

    and no eternal life doesnt mean we cant lose salvation. we have taken what gives us eternal life, it does not say that we cannot willfully turn away and forfeit it.
    as lucifer did under his free will.

     
  18. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    My, psalms, that little apostrophe made a big difference in the meaning of the word. I'm certainly glad you clarified yourself! Moreover, when God is not capitalized, it looks as if you mean a false god. And, since I'm new to this forum and don't know you, I take what you say at face value. Am not going to assume or read anything into your statements. One can get into trouble that way.

    I used to be a legal secretary and am very aware of the importance of punctuation and syntax. Can definitely change the meaning of a sentence!

    Thanks and God bless.

    [This message has been edited by MizDoulos (edited 04 January 2002).]

    [This message has been edited by MizDoulos (edited 04 January 2002).]
     
  19. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    well,
    i guess ill be more careful next time.
    sorry [​IMG]
     
  20. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

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    Hi folks. I'd like to add a point to this topic for you to consider. I am of the camp of the belief where when you are saved, you CANNOT lose your salvation. Now would come the arguments that we are not all perfect, and will never be perfect till we are one with Him, and thus will continue to sin, perhaps even backslide.

    However, if an individual has come to the point where they've made a big mistake or truly sinned big time... were they saved in the first place? An individual who was born again of the spirit, can never fall from grace. Oh they might stumble now and again, even to the point where you would think that it's crispy town for that person, but God's grace is eternal, everlasting, huge! God can and will forgive all sins to those seeking forgiveness.

    My suggestion is that those who claim to have been saved, then one day go in the other direction, with no remorse were not truly saved. Yet even those people God will welcome back and rejoice at their return.
     
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