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Can you lose your salvation??

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Sandman777, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Psalms, I'm just glad that we're "kids of the King" even though we have our differences. The important thing is that we're saved by grace! Thanks for your reply, Psalms.

     
  2. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Hi there, Droobie:

    A thought just came to mind today. If I could lose my salvation, would I not be living under the Law as the OT Israelites? And when Christ came to the earth, did He not free us from the penalty of the Law and placed us under grace?

    And what if I died suddenly in the state of having lost my salvation at the time of death? Bad timing! This alone would probably force me to concentrate on works rather than the grace of God.

    Just a thought.

    MD
     
  3. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

    +64
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    Married
    AU-Liberals
    Yes, that's right. When Christ came to us, he has created a new covenant with us, where salvation is through him, not by anything we can do ourselves as in the OT. My previous point to consider, was not if an individual had lost their salvation, but whether they were truly saved in the first place?

    BTW, what does it mean to lose one's salvation altogether?
     
  4. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    MzDoulos I believe you quoted Paul and I feel like returning to this verse cause it answers our question like no other verse in the Bible. The question is asked
    Rom 8:35
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    (KJV)
    Paul answers and I can picture myself right there asking this very question.
    Paul says
    Rom 8:38-39
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, (I ask "what about spiritual powers?" he answers) nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, ( I ask "what about something that might happen in the future?" He answers) nor things present, nor things to come, ( I ask " What about other circumstances?" he answers)
    39 Nor height, nor depth, ( I ask "what about any created thing. Including you?" he answers) nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (KJV)

    Cooool.
     
  5. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Droobie, I take this question to mean that one wasn't saved in the first place, non? Since I come from the position that once a person is "born again," he cannot ever lose his salvation according to Scripture (as stated in earlier posts). Therefore, if he "lost" his salvation, it would mean that he wasn't saved in the first place. That's a logical deduction to me.
     
  6. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Rkbo, Romans 8:38,39 is one of my favorite verses to quote regarding our eternal redemption. I agree, it speaks volumes to the depth of God's love toward us, His children. I don't know how much stronger Father God could have emphasized His love for us. It certainly gives me great comfort.

    Cooool! . . . yes, I agree, rkbo!!!
     
  7. Kristen

    Kristen Blah Blah

    +28
    Christian
    I posted this exact question on my other forum. From what I have been told and what I have read NO!

    This is one reponse to my thread.

     
  8. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    I'm new to the forum and didn't know about the changes that were about to happen. I made a post early this A.M. and I guess it was lost in the shuffle. It was rather too long anyway so, I will try this shorter version.

    In regard to the Once Saved Always Saved question I submit the following:
    I will give scripture references rather than take up so much space.

    Paul was confident of his salvation near the end of his life 2 Timothy 4:6-8. I don't think the Bible teaches "once saved always saved" is guaranteed. But it does appear to be possible even probable if we remain faithful (not perfect) holding to Christ's teachings.

    Eternal life can be seen in 1 John 5:11-13, then in 1 John 1:6-7 we see continual cleansing by the blood of Christ as long as we walk in the light. Continual cleansing with continual confession!

    In John 8:31 Jesus himself said, "If you continue in My word, then are you My disciples indeed."

    Seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were warned by Jesus; 2:5 Ephesus, 2:10 Smyrna, 2:16 Pergamum, 2:25 Thyatira, 3:3 Sardis, 3:11 Philadelphia, 3:16 Laodecea.
    Then Paul cautions in Colossians 1:21-23 to continue in the faith, remain steadfast and not moved away.

    1 Corinthians Chapter 10 Paul warns about those who fell through disobedience and refers to verse 12. Then encouragement comes in chapter 15 verse 58.

    Paul warns Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18-20 "fight the good fight", "Keep faith and good conscience".

    Galatians 5:1-4, Paul warned those who were tempted to turn back to keeping the Law. He declared that they would then be "under obligation to keep the whole Law." To those who would do so, he said, "You have been severed from Christ; you have fallen from grace." If one no longer has access to grace and is not able to perfectly keep the law, how can there be salvation?

    Then read what Peter says in 2 Peter 2:20-22, Surely those mentioned here were at one time in a saved condition. They had "escaped the defilements of the world [through] Christ." They had "known the way of righteousness." They had been faithful to "the holy commandments," but they turned away and went back to a life of sin.

    Hebrews 3:6 mentions "boast of our hope firm until the end".
    Hebrews 6:4-6 these are not those who were never saved as some claim. There are five characteristics here that apply only to Christians; enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the power of the ages to come. The heavenly gift must surely include forgiveness of sins, justification, and all that pertains to our present and eternal salvation. And the Bible teaches clearly that it is those in a saved relationship with Christ who receive the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17; Romans 8:9-11; 1 Cor 3:16; Galations 4:6).
    The warning from Hebrews 10:26.

    I'll close with Jesus says in Matthew 10:22, “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Anyone who doesn’t understand that our salvation truly doesn’t come until the end (“but he that endureth to the end”) apparently doesn’t understand what Jesus said in this verse.
     
  9. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    :cool: Great scriptures IM >>> Isn't His word GREAT!!!

    It says it all, doesn't it.

    :eek: That's why James told us to hold our tongue! :)

    WELCOME
     
  10. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    Yes, God's word is unlike any other. We sometimes read it, but not read it if you know what I mean. Three words to scripture in my estimation, context, context, context. Also, we need to know more of the Old Testament to better understand the New Testament. After all approx. 80% of the Bible is the Old Testament?
    Jesus was born a Jew, raised a Jew and understood the Torah (Old Testament). He didn't start His ministry until age 30 because in that culture you couldn't be a Rabbi (teacher) until that age.
    There are a number of things I believe that affect our understanding of God's word because we don't understand our Jewish roots.
    We have been grafted in to the olive tree, but we don't know as much as we probably should about how the tree grows? :rolleyes:
     
  11. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    All born again believers overcome, endure untill the end, etc. All true Christians that are adopted into the family of God are save and in the process of being saved and shall be saved. We overcome because Christ gives us that strenghth to do so.

    Who among us are perfect. Who is to say what is a backslidden state. One sin, 40 sins, or living in a state of sin. The fact is we all sin and even the smallest sin earns us hell. The only sin unto death is rejecting the Holy Spirit the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". We should not confuse salvation with fellowship. Salvation is an act of God. Fellowship is dependant on willingness to do Gods will. In his will , in his fellowship. A ratio it seems. The more we are in his will the closer our fellowship.
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    rkbo:

    There are more than one sin unto death.


    Here is another > "Murder" A "Murderer"

    A murderer hath NO "eternal life" abiding in them ! I John 3:15

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  13. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    An open question to anyone.
    I'm curious? It has been posted:
    "All true Christians that are adopted into the family of God are save and in the process of being saved and shall be saved. We overcome because Christ gives us that strenghth to do so."

    Does that mean there are different stages to salvation? "Saved", "in the process", and "shall be saved"? When is a person "shall be saved?" Is that at the end?

    Additionally, does the Bible say in context that once someone is saved it doesn't matter what they do they cannot lose their salvation? How do you address the will of man being left intact at salvation or do you contend man's will with regard to obedience to God/Jesus is taken away at salvation. In everything else man keeps his will except obedience to God is that what is meant? But, if someone does something to lose their salvation that means they were never saved in the first place because to do that something that would cause them to lose their salvation means they were never saved?

    Do we ignore scripture to support the contention "that once saved always saved" is the intent of scripture despite that it repeatedly warns us to endure to the end and Paul in Galatians 5:1-4 speaking to the Christians in the church of Galatia has said in verse 4 "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
    NT:5485 charis (khar'-ece); from NT:5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):

    KJV - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

    I guess the question is, did Paul speak to Christians when he said "you have fallen from Grace", (meaning they lost the gift of salvation) or was he speaking to those who were not saved to begin with?

    P.S. Why would Hebrews 10:35-39 say,

    35 Do not let this happy trust in the Lord die away, no matter what happens. Remember your reward! 36 You need to keep on patiently doing God's will if you want him to do for you all that he has promised. 37 His coming will not be delayed much longer. 38 And those whose faith has made them good in God's sight must live by faith, trusting him in everything. Otherwise, if they shrink back, God will have no pleasure in them.

    39 But we have never turned our backs on God and sealed our fate. No, our faith in him assures our souls' salvation.
    TLB
    And Hebrews 3:12,
    12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    KJV

    If in the writers mind (KJV says it's Paul) there wasn't a possibility that one could lose their salvation, after having the gift, why would God inspire these Bible authors to put these words in the Bible?
     
  14. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hervey all sins are sins unto death for the non believer.
    Rom 6:23
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (KJV)


    Matt 5:21-22
    21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    (KJV)

    The unpardonable sin is the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".
    Matt 12:31-32
    31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
    (KJV)
    If we go back to verse 24 we find what he is reffering to.
    Matt 12:24
    24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
    (KJV)

    To attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to Bellzebub is blasphemy and is rejecting the Holy Spirit.
     
  15. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    RKBO,
    Please forgive me for butting in, but wasn't the Pharisees speaking of Jesus in Matt 12:24 and not the Holy Spirit?:confused:
     
  16. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    im4him you have to look at salvation in this way:

    We are saved
    Luke 7:50
    50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
    (KJV)


    Titus 3:5
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    (KJV)

    We shall be saved:
    1 Cor 3:14-15
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    (KJV)

    We are in the process of being saved:
    Phil 2:12
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    (KJV)

    I use this verse because it needs to be talked about , this is the fear and trembling part anyway.

    Does this verse mean we need to be fearful to the point of shaking? Nope. This is a saying like we do today. If my son says Jesus is totaly cool does it mean he need a coat or what? well fear and trembling is also a saying . Look at this.
    2 Cor 7:15
    15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
    (KJV)

    Eph 6:5
    5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
    (KJV)

    This means "with respect". But what about the "Work out your salvation" part? I think we have agreed that we don't work for salvation we recieve it as a free gift, by faith. The "work out " part is the fact that we indeed are working out our salvation in that Jesus is working us toward the ultimate goal of final salvation. The goal being our imortal bodies and heavinly home. We are assured of it as if we were already there.
    Eph 1:3-5
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    (KJV)

    I hope this has answered more questions than it brings up.
     
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    rkbo:

    The wages of sin is death, but not all sin is unto death, since we as Christians were saved.

    We know we can still sin, yet we have been cleansed from all unrighteousness, yet if a man says he has no sin, he makes God a liar. Does what I just said sound contradictory ? It would if one does not fully understand the fullness of what the scriptures are saying ! And I just quoted the scriptures with that sentence.

    There is "sin" , which is the disobedience of God, which Paul said , he knew no sin , except by the law.

    Not all sin is sin unto death "after" you have been saved.

    I John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law : for sin is the transgression of the law"

    Verse 6 - "Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not : whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him"

    Key verse > Verse 7 - "Little children, let no man deceive you : he that doeth righteousness is righteous , even as he is righteous"

    Another Key verse > Verse 8 - "He that committeth sin is of the devil ; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil"

    "HATE" of thy brother IN Christ, can be counted as murder in the eyes of God ! Just read I John 3:15. And no 'murderer' hath "any" eternal life abiding in him !

    There is sin - "not unto death" -- and there is -- "sin unto death" -- I John 5:16.

    Remember - We did not save ourselves, nor were we saved of ourselves. And we still have free will to sin or not sin. And we should pray for those who have sin, that God will cleanse them of their sin of unrighteousness. But some sin you can not pray for, and those sins are sins unto death - I John 3:15

    We were saved by grace, and we can fall from grace, and those who do not "fear" God, will not respect their walks in righteousness, and will not be sober and vigilant, and their adversary seeks whom he may destroy. We can not afford to sleep spiritually. We must diligently walk with our spiritual eyes wide open , knowing full well we do have an adversary, who would like nothing better than to help you fall from grace.

    This is why we are told to put on the "whole armour of God" that we may be able to "stand", against the wiles of the devil" - Ephesians 6:11.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  18. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    Very Good Hervey!

    Hello RKBO:
    :)
    Said, "The "work out " part is the fact that we indeed are working out our salvation in that Jesus is working us toward the ultimate goal of final salvation. The goal being our imortal bodies and heavinly home. We are assured of it as if we were already there."

    The key words I believe are exactly, "as if we were already there."(Not actually, but by faith) We are not there until the end! We have not yet achieved the goal which incidently is to rule with Jesus on a new earth and with a new heaven Revelation 22:5.

    Those present will be those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life by Rev 3:5:
    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.KJV

    I believe according to John the Revelator one has to be in the Lamb's Book of Life to enter in to the kingdom. Rev. 21:27, "...but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." KJV


    If Jesus blots their name out of the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. 3:5) does that mean then to get into the Book of Life does not require one to be a Christian? I do believe to have ones name in the book one has to be Christian and an overcomer Rev. 3:5.

    I also believe to be an overcomer one must remain faithful to that goal mentioned and if one doesn't remain faithful to the end (overcome) then one will be blotted out of the book (Rev. 3:5) which follows they no longer have grace (salvation) and are: Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." KJV

    So the question remains how can one be "once saved always saved" when according to scripture Jesus can remove their name from the Lamb's Book of Life?:confused:
     
  19. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    well I'll have to leave this thread with this:

    Ro. 8:35-39 is so very clear to me. The clear teaching is that "nothing" that is "nothing" can keep us from the love of Christ. If there was something Paul would have put a clause in the scripture and said (except, this and that or myself or something) He made it clear that "nothing" can keep him from the love of Christ.

    With this in mind I practice the art of Bible interpretation by interpreting the difficult passages in the light of the clear passages. This make me understand Heb. 6:4-6 as either talking about people that have whitnessed and seen the works of the Holy Spirit and have known the word of God and have rejected it. Or they were the Judaisers that were trying to keep the sacrifcial and ceremonial laws along with their Christian views. This is how I hamonize these scriptures.

    I will be magnanamous and let you fine folks have the last word.

    Can you be magnanamous if you say you are magnanamous?

    Im4him if you read the whole thread I think you'll see where I'm comming from. Thanks all for the debate.
     
  20. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

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    RKBO,

    :) Please, you don't need to be "magnanamous", I like your debate abilities.

    If this thread is to end I would like to ask a couple of things before we depart. BTW I have read the thread from the beginning. Also, I prescribe to the believe that "nothing, nothing, nothing" can keep me from the love of Christ except, ME!

    You used Hebrews 6:4-6 apparently as your last shot:

    This make me understand Heb. 6:4-6 as either talking about people that have whitnessed and seen the works of the Holy Spirit and have known the word of God and have rejected it. Or they were the Judaisers that were trying to keep the sacrifcial and ceremonial laws along with their Christian views. This is how I hamonize these scriptures.

    Which could be O.K. except you left out what I believe to be key words of your reference especially verse 4. "Enlightened", I believe refers to a Christian because I've not seen very many enlightened unbelievers. "Tasted", I somehow don't believe very many unbelievers have tasted the heavenly gift. "Partakers", of the Holy Spirit I'm sure can never be a nonbeliever.

    The paragraph starts with verse 1 with the heading the need for maturity. "Leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Chirst, let us go on to perfection", begins the 1st verse. The discussion continues to doctrine of baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. Then verse 3 "And this we will do if God permits."

    Finally, verse 9-10 "But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompnay salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister."
    How many people do you know in the Bible who have ministered to saints yet they were not Christians?

    Granted these are those who stepped out of Judaism into Christianity and want to escape persecution from their countrymen by going backwards. That's the purpose of the warning in these verses, don't go back. If the scripture were only a warning for them why would it be inculded in the New Testament for us to read?

    When I interpret scripture I try to use all of what's written in a passage and the passage before as well as the passage after.
     
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