Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[MarkEvan]

If God did not want you to sin, dont you think He could have made you that way ? He made angels that way..The elect angels

You need to back that up with scripture.


Mark

 

[MarkEvan]

Hi Sawdust,

This is my understanding of James 1:15 which I find more consistent with the rest of scripture than what you are suggesting.

Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death.

What death is James referring to? If he is talking generally and applying it to anyone at any time, he is effectively repeating what God said in the beginning. "Sin and you die" (Gen.2:17)

We know that Adam did not die (completely) on that day he ate. He remained physically alive, he was not completely abandoned for the Lord walked into the garden next day to speak with him. We understand Adam died spiritually. But according to the word of God, Adam should have been totally abandoned by God, physically, spiritually and his soul, (the complete man) forsaken by God. The Father could "suspend" the complete consequences of Adam's sin without compromising His integrity (holiness) because of the Christ to come, planned before the foundation of the world. When Christ came he did die "in the day" just as Adam should have. For three hours on the Cross while He was paying for the full consequences of our sin he was forsaken by God. This is something no man will ever experience. Please take special note of this and keep it in mind. No man will ever experience what it is like to be fully forsaken by God (die) because of his sin. The death Christ died on the Cross is the death Adam should have died in the garden but didn't.

First thing I will say is that I believe those who go to hell will suffer eternal separation from God, and will therefore expierience what it is like to be fully forsaken by God......because that of God which they feel in this earth...the Holy Spirit...will not be present. But I havn`t read the rest of your post yet .

If James is referring to believers in the verse above (and I believe he is) then the whatever death he speaks of is "covered" in the death of Christ, spiritual, physical and of the soul. However we know believers die physically, we see it everyday. In practical terms the warning James is giving us (believers) has application in regards to physical death. This corresponds to Paul's statement in Corinthians.

That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 1Cor.11:30

Their sin has brought God's judgment upon them and they have died physically yet they are in Christ and because He has died, these people will live.

It also corresponds with John.

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 1Jn.5:16

While I agree that the James passage is about believers I do not see that it is talking about physical death. If we see the entirety of the passage

12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Firstly this is the context to take everything else in, this is speaking of trials and perseverance, it is no surprise that the next few verses then speak of temptations as these are trials. But with this verse note the prize for persevering through the temptations...the crown of life. Bearing this in mind lets go on.

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.



If we take the first verse as the context verse it tells us what happens when we persevere what we recieve, these proceeding verses tell us the consequence of not persevering, of giving in to these desires, the result is death, and if we add the conclusion of the first verse that means no crown of life.

Any believer who willfully continues to practice their sin without regard for their salvation will not mock the Lord. He will take them out of this life (physical death) so that His name is not blasphemed. Now sometimes He does it quickly and they die young and sometimes he does it slowly and they hang around for awhile. Invariably, those brothers become a test for us who are growing up in the Lord.

They do become a test, but according to hebrews 6, anyone who calls themselves a believer but willfully continues in sin is looking only at the prospect of judgement........lets not forget the 1 john verse, 'if any say they have fellowship in the light yet walk in darkness they lie and do not live by the truth,' or James again 'friendship with the world id enmity with God.' Anyone who continues in sin after being saved, will if they continue further...forfeit salvation.

Now if James is referring to spiritual death as you are suggesting, the practical implication is completely unmanageable. It would mean every time any of us sins, we would die spiritually. If we are not spiritually alive the word of God becomes as foolishness to us. We would need to have the Gospel presented over and over again. Only those spiritually alive can be taught of God. Only those who are spiritually alive have the capacity to understand the word of God. Most of us commit sins which we are completely unaware of. The word of God would have to say ...

"Unless a man be born again and again and again and again and" .... on it would go for every sin we would commit.

The reason we don't die spiritually every time we commit a sin is because we are in Christ. He died that death on our behalf once and for all.

Actually the James passage would be saying that continuose sin would result in death notice what verse 15 says, first when that desire has concieved it gives birth to sin (one sin) then when that sin is full grown (this is obviously more than one sin) it gives birth to death.

So why is it, if Christ died for us spiritually and physically, we don't die spiritually when we sin yet die physically whether we sin or not? It is because the sin nature resides in the flesh and until we get our resurrection bodies the sin nature remains in the members of our body.

For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Rom.7:22 - 25

That law, working in our bodies, keep us as slaves to sin. That law never stops operating, not until we die or the resurrection, which ever comes first. Whether we live under it's law or whether we live under the law of the Spirit is an ongoing choice but it is a choice only made possible if we believe in Christ. For only in Christ does the option to live the new life (governed by the law of the Spirit) exist.

Yet according to the scriptures when we are born again ; 'So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!' So from what I can see the sinful nature is no more in a believer, yes we still walk in the flesh and it is through the flesh that we are tempted, but the sinful nature that was in us prior to being born again has passed away 'the old has gone.' The Romans 7 passage is therefore not talking of a believer but of someone who wants to serve God but doesn`t the truth. It cannot be speaking of a believer because it would then be contradicting what Jesus said in John 8 that is that; 'Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."' the context quite clearly defines that what we are set free from is sin, so to say that a believer is still a slave to sin in their flesh is to say that we have not been set free from sin.

Quote:
Yet Romans 8 says that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, are those who continue in sin, those who are 'living Christs death instead of His life,' really being transformed? Remember what james says 'friendship with the world is enmity with God,' if we live a lifestyle of sin are we not in friendship with the world?
Believe it or not? Yes, they are being transformed but they are not being transformed in their soul (thinking). In terms of a man's spirit, transformation is not applicable. One is either dead or alive. No transformation takes place. You can't be "partly" spiritual. (that would make you a spiritual zombie. there is no such thing ) The other transformation left is physical, but as I said before, that is in the resurrection. That won't occur until God says "time's up" (so to speak). We all still wait for that time.

This is why we don't "see" their transformation. This is why we are inclined to think they are not saved. But the Lord can see the beginning from the end.

By their fruit you shall know them, and faith without works is dead, to say that they are not being outwardly transformed is equal to saying that they have no fruit/works.........their faith is dead.

So what happens to a believer who refuses to be transformed in his soul while on this earth when the resurrection comes and he stands before Christ?

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1Cor.3:12-15

What does he lose? The majority of his spiritual blessings that have been placed in Christ. (Eph.1:3) He still gets his spiritual body and his place in God's Kingdom and the obvious benefits that would come from that. But the difference bewteen his life in eternity and someone who has grown and matured, is like the difference between a peasant in an earthly knigdom and the life of a royal advisor and confidante to the King.

Our work is our faith. Our faith is the word of God made alive in our soul, made alive by our willingness to trust in it's truth. Whatever is not of faith (truth) is burnt up and destroyed but if one believes that Jesus is the Saviour, even if they know no more than this, they have at least one truth in their soul and therefore are saved. No-one believes on Christ if they think he can't or won't save them. I doubt any one of us understood in full what we were being saved from when we believed in Christ. We knew our lives were wrong. Whether we understood why or how they were wrong is inconsequential. We believed and therefore are saved.

peace

The 1 corinthians 3 passage again is not talking about sin/holiness. Anyone who is not holy will not see the LORD (hebrews 12 14). It is my belief (again due to the context of the passage) that the works that are there tested.....are what teachings you hold to. Bear in mind that Paul talks about building on the foundation of Christ, and what is it that are the building blocks? What they teach.....and it is not a sin to hold wrong doctrine, the practice of wrong doctrine yes but not the doctrine itself.
As to anyone who believes that Jesus is the saviour being saved, I don`t see this from scripture.....yes this profession saves, but it is shown to be true because we obey his commandments.........anyone (whether they profess Christ or not) who is disobediant does not love Christ........they may have done so in the past (see ezekiel 3) but do not do so any longer.





Mark

 

[savedbygrace57]

You need to back that up with scripture.

The whole bible backs it up if you believe in the True God..

job 23:
13
13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

lk 1 37

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

[savedbygrace57]

If you deny Jesus he will deny you - spoken to Christians.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Mt 10:33; Mr 8:38; Lu 12:9; Ro 8:17; 1Pe 4:13

Brian

Why didnt he deny peter then ? peter denied him !

 

[MarkEvan]

The whole bible backs it up if you believe in the True God..

job 23:
13
13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

lk 1 37

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Hi SBG, I will say one more time God cannot tempt anyone, that removes any capacity you may believe God has to cause people to sin as sin is giving in to temptation.


Mark

 

[drstevej]

Kept By The Power Of God

 

[savedbygrace57]

Hi SBG, I will say one more time God cannot tempt anyone, that removes any capacity you may believe God has to cause people to sin as sin is giving in to temptation.

It was Gods will that adam sinned or he would not have sinned..

God did not create adam with the capacity to obey a spiritual command rom 7:

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

adam was natural , earthly 1 cor 15:

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The test in the Garden was to expose adam as a sinner and to point him to christ.. adam needed to be born again even when freshly out of the hand of God..

 

[brmicke]

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Saved you may think you got me, maybe since this is a seeming contradiction it would be a good exercise for you to try and figure it out and explain it to me.

Brian

 

[savedbygrace57]

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Saved you may think you got me, maybe since this is a seeming contradiction it would be a good exercise for you to try and figure it out and explain it to me.

Brian

You just need to be born again..

 

[squint]

He was Perfect when He was created - not anymore however. I would say that is pretty conclusive. Unless God has changed.

Brian

Part of the issue of this matter of "Lucifer" is that people read that he was perfect and equate that to being "saved."

Lucifer is a PERFECT DEVIL, perfect IN ALL OF HIS WAYS.

This does in NO WAY equate Lucifer to being PERFECT in any HOLY sense of the term.

 

[squint]

James was describing the flesh of all human beings, the scenario in gen 3 is what james described temptation entices inward lust , as it did with eve..So this proves that adam was created with a sinful nature or else where did the inner lust come from in eve to be attracted to satans temptation ?

You seem to have a pretty good drift on this subject.

Go to Romans 7:17-21 and find out the difference between Paul and what indwelt Paul's flesh...

Then apply that understanding in the Garden...

Let me know what you see.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You seem to have a pretty good drift on this subject.

Go to Romans 7:17-21 and find out the difference between Paul and what indwelt Paul's flesh...

Then apply that understanding in the Garden...

Let me know what you see.

Well it was not satan in her it was the created flesh , flesh is sinful and weak in and of itself..

mk 14

38Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

rom 8:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

external forces such as satan , , things we see , and desire , and natural pride will overcome flesh every time..

jn 3:

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

wether born flesh or created flesh does not matter its weak and sinful..

1 exception The Lord Jesus Christ..

 

[frumanchu]

So God allows man to sin.....no ordains it Himself? How is this inline with God who is able to keep us from stumbling...from Jesus who says 'go away and sin no more,' from Paul who says 'do you not know brothers that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be decieved?' Are you really saying that God causes us to sin? Dont forget that God tempts no one!
Mark

God does not Himself tempt anyone to sin, but most certainly allows men to be tempted to sin by something or someone other than Himself, and given that He is sovereign over the circumstances it is inescapable that He ordains all things (including our sin). If you ordain the means with full knowledge of their end, you ordain the end also.

God does not create fresh evil in the heart of man, but He certainly in His sovereignty ordains the outworking of that evil, not by tempting men to sin but by ordaining and ordering the means by which it is brought about, always to His good will and purpose.

Unfortunately it is too simplistic to ask or answer the question "Does God cause men to sin?" without further clarification. The answer could be yes or no depending on what type of causality you have in view.

 

[squint]

Well it was not satan in her it was the created flesh , flesh is sinful and weak in and of itself..

Flesh is NOT evil. That is the error of the Gnostic position.

mk 14

38Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

I gave a specific scripture set that addresses WHY the flesh is weak. That presentation is located in Romans 7:17-21 WHERE Paul described the "sin indwelling" himself as NO LONGER I twice, also stating therein that when he wanted to do good, Paul found that EVIL was present with him.

1 John 3:9 fully implicates ALSO the DEVIL in EVERY SIN...

So connect the dots. Was Paul EVIL? No. Evil was with him, in his flesh as the "presence of indwelling sin" which actions in thought, word or deed are OF THE DEVIL.

Paul also stated openly that he himself carried a special messenger of SATAN in his flesh, again dividing the flesh from that which it is SUBJECTED TO.

Jesus also showed us THOUSANDS of examples of the DEVILS being inhabitants OF THE FLESH.

So it is not like this is without OPEN PRECEDENT in the scriptures. Mankind is simply NOT ALONE in their flesh.

rom 8:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Yes, God in Christ DID and still DOES condemn SIN in SINFUL FLESH. None of us have EVER been promised flesh that is NOT subject to the presence of SIN indwelling, which same is OF THE DEVIL, who is the EVIL that is PRESENT with us all IN the flesh. We do not therefore "follow" the dictates of the "flesh" because of what/who IS IN IT.

external forces such as satan , , things we see , and desire , and natural pride will overcome flesh every time..

But you see the mere fact that you cannot PLACE the devil IN the flesh IS IN FACT a working OF the DEVIL.

jn 3:

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

wether born flesh or created flesh does not matter its weak and sinful..

1 exception The Lord Jesus Christ..

I think we all agree that the flesh and mind of Jesus was NOT subject to the DEVIL. That is why we "listen to Him" per God's instructions.

enjoy!

squint

 

[drstevej]

Free will palaver
Pretended autonomy
Baby Jesus cries.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Flesh is NOT evil. That is the error of the Gnostic position.



I gave a specific scripture set that addresses WHY the flesh is weak. That presentation is located in Romans 7:17-21 WHERE Paul described the "sin indwelling" himself as NO LONGER I twice, also stating therein that when he wanted to do good, Paul found that EVIL was present with him.

1 John 3:9 fully implicates ALSO the DEVIL in EVERY SIN...

So connect the dots. Was Paul EVIL? No. Evil was with him, in his flesh as the "presence of indwelling sin" which actions in thought, word or deed are OF THE DEVIL.

Paul also stated openly that he himself carried a special messenger of SATAN in his flesh, again dividing the flesh from that which it is SUBJECTED TO.

Jesus also showed us THOUSANDS of examples of the DEVILS being inhabitants OF THE FLESH.

So it is not like this is without OPEN PRECEDENT in the scriptures. Mankind is simply NOT ALONE in their flesh.



Yes, God in Christ DID and still DOES condemn SIN in SINFUL FLESH. None of us have EVER been promised flesh that is NOT subject to the presence of SIN indwelling, which same is OF THE DEVIL, who is the EVIL that is PRESENT with us all IN the flesh. We do not therefore "follow" the dictates of the "flesh" because of what/who IS IN IT.



But you see the mere fact that you cannot PLACE the devil IN the flesh IS IN FACT a working OF the DEVIL.



I think we all agree that the flesh and mind of Jesus was NOT subject to the DEVIL. That is why we "listen to Him" per God's instructions.

enjoy!

squint

The devil was not in eve when she sinned he was next to her..

She had a inward lust james 1:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The devil was no more in eve as he was not in christ when he was tempted by the devil..

every man says james has his own lust..thats what paul is describing in rom 7:

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[squint]

The devil was not in eve when she sinned he was next to her..

There is no disclosure of the tempter being "next to her." If we look at how sin indwelling the flesh worked via Paul's description it is aroused and empowered in the flesh by the Law. I have no reason to believe it wasn't the same with Eve.

And besides, she was already UNDER deception prior to eating the apple, when she recounted the command of God WRONGLY to the serpent.

She had a inward lust james 1:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

At this point I'm going to presume that you didn't like Paul's disclosure in Romans 7 where he stated that the sin that indwelt his own flesh was NO LONGER I.

Paul "carried" that presence in his flesh, thereby making THAT his burden or lust...but that still in no way equates Paul to be the same as that which Paul carried, particularly when termed NO LONGER I.

The devil was no more in eve as he was not in christ when he was tempted by the devil..

I'd agree in the case of Jesus that His Temptation was external, but that is not the case with everyone else.

Paul tells us that by one man SIN ENTERED. The man was already there...his flesh was already there...and THEN when the command came, SIN ENTERED Adam, and ANYone who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL. Even simple logic implicates the DEVIL in ALL SIN.

every man says james has his own lust..thats what paul is describing in rom 7:

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Dancing around the fact is a waste of time.

Indwelling sin for ALL mankind is JUST AS IT WAS FOR PAUL...

NO LONGER I.

Those who seek to blame and accuse ONLY their fellow man, do so at the COMPELLING of the DEVIL in them, and there is NOTHING that they can do about it. They work such workings as SLAVES by bringing continual blame, accusations and judgments of various sorts ONLY to our fellow man and OUTRIGHT IGNORE the fact that JESUS showed us that mankind is NOT ALONE in the flesh.

You may think you have a nice little love package put together, but if it is apart from simple fact...well, do the math.

enjoy!

squint

 

[sawdust]

James was describing the flesh of all human beings, the scenario in gen 3 is what james described temptation entices inward lust , as it did with eve..So this proves that adam was created with a sinful nature or else where did the inner lust come from in eve to be attracted to satans temptation ?

14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. James1:14&15

Adam was not created with a sin nature. The sin nature has it's origin in the flesh. Evil desire is what gives birth to sin. Evil has it's origin in the soul. Evil is a system of thinking that rejects God's truth and replaces it with a lie and calls the lie good and the truth evil. Sin does not lead to evil, evil leads to sin. When Adam was faced with temptation it was a matter of volition. Would he believe what God said or would he believe what Eve said. In order to believe Eve, Adam had to reject the truth (God's word) and create a lie to justify his false belief. Then the sin was born, as history shows us, he ate. The sin nature was created in Adam when he ate. Now whether it was something in the fruit itself or some other mechanism, we are not told.

Why would Adam give thought to a lie in the first place? As best I can see from scripture, the determining factor is that which we value most in our hearts.

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matt.6:21
(keep in mind "heart" is a euphimism for the thinking area of the soul)
Exactly what thought was in Adam's mind we cannot say except in general principle. But, essentially, Whatever Adam thought he would gain, (which would have been a lie as the Lord had already told him what he would gain) by eating the fruit, had more value for him than did the word of God.

Of course all of what I have said applies to Eve as well. Being presented with a choice, rejecting the truth, creating a lie to fulfill one's values, acting upon it to bring forth sin.

Now, unlike Adam and Eve, we are born with a sin nature so we begin on the wrong foot to start with. We don't have a choice like Adam and Eve did, we are guaranteed to sin before we even have any idea what it is or even before we can think up some lie to replace the truth. Yet it does not take too long before we can start to think and because the world in which we live is full of lies we adopt them into our soul and utilise them for living. If it was not for the Lord we would never know anything different to have a choice to begin with. In a sense, Adam short circuited the process for us by passing on the sin nature for this guaranteed we would be born without capacity for truth.

This is why salvation is always by grace. The Lord is always the initiator. God has given to each of us the authority over our own souls to make a choice (volition) between life and death but he has not given our volition the authority to then create that life. We call it freewill but personally I prefer the term "authorised will". We tend to you use the word "free" with the connotation of being without restraint. Our wills are not "without restraint" in and of themselves yet when we align our will with God's will then we live as people who can will anything we want and it will be done.

If you remain in me (walking in the filling of the Spirit) and my words remain in you, (resting in the truth of God's word) ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. Jn15:7


For the unbeliever the question God asks of him is .... "who do you say is Christ?" To the believer God asks the question "who do you value more, Christ (who is the the Word) or you?"

Christ took the responsibility of sin upon His own shoulders (which includes the eradication of the sin nature) but the responsibility in regards to evil, we must work in co-operation with God. Our responsibility is to be willing to believe in the word of God and rest in it. Of course, that naturally implies if what we believe isn't the truth our foundation is not going to keep us from evil and if not from evil, then not from sin.

If we do sin? We confess it. The evil desire which gave birth to the sin must be repented from. But no-one can do that unless they know the truth. This is why it is important to study the word of God and make it our number one priority in life.

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. Jn.17:17

peace

 

[savedbygrace57]

Adam was not created with a sin nature.

Sure he was , where do you think it came from out the blue ? adam sinned in the garden because he was a sinner..

 

[savedbygrace57]

You cannot change scripture.. james 1:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.