Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[sawdust]

If you deny Jesus he will deny you - spoken to Christians.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Mt 10:33; Mr 8:38; Lu 12:9; Ro 8:17; 1Pe 4:13

Brian

He will deny us what?

Maybe the same thing we deny Him in?

If a person does not deny He is the Saviour sent by God? Then He won't deny them salvation.

peace

 

[sawdust]

Sure he was , where do you think it came from out the blue ? adam sinned in the garden because he was a sinner..

I spent quite a bit of time explaining from whence the sin nature came.

It didn't come from "out of the blue". It came from eating the forbidden fruit. If Adam never ate the fruit, he would never have died.

Until he ate he had no sin nature. We, on the other hand are born with one because Adam's sin ensured it for the rest of us. Christ being the exception obviously because he didn't have a human father. Christ was born without blemish as Adam was created without blemish. We are not born without blemish.

peace

 

[savedbygrace57]

I spent quite a bit of time explaining from whence the sin nature came.

It was all for nought because you dont know what the heck you talking about..

God created adam with a sin nature..thats why he sinned..

 

[pehkay]

=_=;; where did you get that?

 

[brmicke]

He will deny us what?

Maybe the same thing we deny Him in?

If a person does not deny He is the Saviour sent by God? Then He won't deny them salvation.

peace

Hi - Well We have an example and the result.

The Example being Peter - who denied Jesus.

the Result is that when Jesus knew the future and said to Hijm "when you are converted strengthen your brethren".

Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lu 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

Lu 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

So the answer is in these verses, and in the logical thoughts involved in understanding the situation spoken of.

Peter denied Jesus and Jesus certainly must have denied Peter - however Jesus knew that Peter would be converted. Knowing this Jesus gave Peter instructions for the future time after Peter would be restored to fellowship with Jesus.

So it is beneficial to further study the word converted as it is used here and why it is used here--

1994. epistrefw epistrepho, ep-ee-stref'-o
from 1909 and 4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally):--come (go) again, convert, (re-)turn (about, again).

Brian

 

[brmicke]

I have been trying to find the verse that implies that after many corrections a person will be cut off but cant find it. I think that that verse speaks to this subject.

can you help me to remember where it is?

 

[brmicke]

Pr 29:1 ¶ He <0376>, that being often reproved <08433> hardeneth <07185> (8688) his neck <06203>, shall suddenly <06621> be destroyed <07665> (8735), and that without remedy <04832>.

 

[sawdust]

Hi Sawdust,

Hi Mark,

Could I ask a favour please? I would like to respond to this post but because you have put the scripture verses in quotes they don't show up when I reply. It is making it difficult for me to keep on track.

If you could go back in and edit your post to take the verses out of quotes, put them in colour if you like, it would help a lot. Thanks.

peace

 

[MarkEvan]

Hi sawdust and all to whom I owe a post, I am going on holiday tomorrow and as such can`t respond till after easter, I don`t have long on the internet now so thought the best thing to do would be to explain why I won`t be answering anything for a while.......Sawdust I have undone the quotes around the text in my post and will hopefully sometime get round to posting to your reply..



Mark

 

[sawdust]

God created adam with a sin nature..thats why he sinned..

So did you want to back up that statement with the word of God or are you happy to run with your own opinion?

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Gen.1:31a

Are you really asking us to believe that the Lord condemns sin but considers the very nature that feeds that sin to be "very good"?

peace

 

[brmicke]

What an excellent point sawdust.

I am very pleased to offer you a well deserved - clear thinking merit point -

Never having traveled much myself, I want to tell everyone how very cool I think it is for me to be able to speak to my brethren all over the world.

Brian

 

[Ben johnson]

Paul clearly taught that in THE SAME LUMP there are TWO VESSELS.

One unto HONOR and one of DISHONOR.

God is presently "tolerating" the vessels of DISHONOR whom HE is USING in behalf of the vessels of HONOR.

There's a third vessel, "wrath fitted (themselves) for destruction". Contextually, the "vessels of dishonor" (which NASV translates "common"), are saved. Both honor/dishonor-common, are ON the Potter's wheel. The vessels of wrath, are not.

The "use," that VESSEL OF DISHONOR...is in part to DEMONstrate ETERNAL MERCY to the VESSEL OF HONOR and Divine Judgment and Eternal Wrath on the VESSEL OF DISHONOR.

Different vessels; "atimia" is not "wrath fitted for destruction".

So no Ben, neither YOU or I or any other person is ALONE in the flesh or mind. We HAVE the presence of EVIL with us.

No; Christ and the Spirit, indwell us; evil has no place.

"Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Paul effectively eradicates your intentions of people NOT being saved unless they believe in Romans 11:26-32 wherein Paul OPENLY DECLARES that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who were MADE ENEMIES of the Gospel. These DIED in the flesh under the sin of UNbelief.

The generality of "ALL", does not conflict the idea that "those who die in unrepentance, perish". Just as Rom3:10 ("no one seeks God") presents a generality that does not conflict "those who seek, He receives" (Heb11:6).

IF we look to the top portion of Romans 11, we can also clearly see that it was God Himself who placed upon the people of Israel a "spirit of stupor" again showing the presence of the VESSEL of DISHONOR who was upon them ALL.

The "spirit of stupor", comes AFTER willful disbelief.

So NO, there is not just A MAN...in the body...there is also A USURPER...a MAN OF SIN. One will be taken and one will be left behind in judgments that will reign down upon them when God calls the time.

enjoy!

A man cannot have "evil", when he's indwelt by Lord and Master Jesus.

 

[Ben johnson]

No I don't see you as being argumentative but rather highly passionate about what you believe. I think it is why I like you Ben because it seems to me we both have this same quality in our personality. Of course, passion alone doesn't necessarily make one right. (and I say that for my benefit as much as yours) Passion can make one as deeply blind as much as it can give one great insight.

I think you may have misunderstood something here. I wasn't trying to say you see the posters who disagree with you in this thread as goats. I understand the type of person (at least I think I do) that you are alluding to. But herein lies a problem. The majority of verses that you refer to are actually people pursuing righteousness, not sin. It is just that in their pursuit they have gotten off on the wrong track. My pastor puts it this way.

Israel failed to meet God's criteria, because they tried to pursue righteousness through works, rather than through grace.

A wrong thing done in a wrong way is wrong.
A wrong thing done in a right way is wrong.
A right thing done in a wrong way is wrong.
A right thing done in a right way is right.

A good many of the people in scripture who are warned about "refusing God" or "fallen from grace" etc are people who are looking to do the right thing but they are trying to do it in the wrong way.

Which means "apart from Jesus"...

Yes. He is saying "you don't belong". But He is not saying "you don't belong in the Kingdom" He is saying "you don't belong in close and intimate communion with me.". These Laodicean brothers and sisters have proven they cannot be trusted with the Word they have been given, therefore Christ is not going to trust them with more. If they don't heed His word, instead of sitting on His throne with Him, they will be sitting on the floor in a very unceremonious manner (spat out His mouth), but they are still a citizen of the Kingdom.

How can "poor blind wretched naked", allude to "the saved"? If so, what would be the difference between them, and those Jesus will separate out at the end and call "goats"?

But as I tried to explain before Ben, if these people are not saved why is Christ not giving them the Gospel so they might be saved? Why is He instructing them in matters that pertain to a child of God? Things that only a child of God can do? You have to enter the shop before you can make a purchase. Unbelievers haven't gone inside. They can't make a "purchase" from Christ. They don't even believe in Him as being Saviour. Unbelievers are not in a relationship with God, good or bad, to even begin making transactions with Him.

Because by walking as a child of God, we walk in salvation. It is as John said in 1:1:6-7: "If we say we have fellowship but walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we ...the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness." Clearly, we are not cleansed from unrighteousness if we walk in darkness (rather than in fellowship with the Light).

Yes, your door being the operative here. In other words if you won't walk in close fellowship with me then I can't walk in close fellowship with you. "You" have shut me out but I am faithful even if you are not and I'm still standing here waiting for you.

2Tim2:11-14, says "He is faithful; if we are not, He will deny us before God". See Matt10:34-35.

Well I did try. Whether you will understand or not ... ??? It seems to me Ben you don't distinguish between "positional truth" and "experiential truth". Putting that another way.

Truth is truth; we are positioned in Christ, by faith (and He is therefore in us)!

If Christ was Fort Knox? Then when we believe, it is like the Father takes us and puts us in Fort Knox and declares "all this is yours". Positionally it is ours, it remains so forever, experientially it is Christ's. If we are to make our position also our experience then Christ's life must be transferred to us and become a part of us. This can only happen as we walk by means of the Spirit contolling our soul and relying upon the word (faith). But whether we do that or not we still remain children of God. Our position in Christ remains secure from the moment we believe in Him. What is not guaranteed is His position in us, that is, how much of His word dwells in us. The bare facts that Christ died for us? Or will we take in the full counsel of God, rightly dividing His word?

Our POSITION is only secure when we BELIEVE; and true belief abides in repentance. One cannot exist without the other...

No I don't see a subject change. Yes he is saying "grow up" because those who are saved and growing and stop growing before they reach maturity (falling away) remain as children. And just like children who do not fully appreciate their toys and the cost of them to their parents, so too are you (those in the verses), if you remain in this childish thinking. All you do is trash the gifts you have been given.

If they "remain as children", then they never overcome sin. And he WHO overcomes, shall be clothed in white garments and shall not be erased from the Book of Life. Rev3:10

The context of the passage is growth. They are falling away from growing up not from their position of being a son.

Nope, they are unrepentant; and per verses like Lk13:3, can't be saved.

Actually I'm hoping that's a typo and you meant verse 39 and not 33 otherwise I might have to think you want me dead for what I have said.

Ha! You looked it up! Good for you!!! Yes, 39 was what I meant...

Well I'm not really sure what you are getting at. Generally speaking, humility must be enforced at first. Take any 3yo for a week and you soon realise humility is not a natural strong point. Hopefully though most of us learn quickly enough to recognise the value of humility and incorporate it into our lives.

Unless we are humbled as a child, we shall never enter the kingdom of God. Matt18:3-4

Gladly. Will she listen to me?

I'm afraid not; she's kindof a one-person-cat, and I'm it. After she was so sick the last time (Vet was SURE she would die), he put her on the counter to see if she would recognize me; she paused for only a half second, then walked over and buried her head in my stomach.

Almost. .... "is identical in appearance. But they are not the same as an unbeliever nor can they ever be. They are born again, adopted as a son (of God), citizens of heaven, given the title of Royal Priest, indwelt by God the Spirit, Son and the Father, sealed, are appointed an Ambassador of Christ, baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit ... they are just the differences I can think of off the top of my head. None of those things can be seen, touched, smelt, heard or tasted but they occur the moment we believe in Christ and they are not undone. The Lord is no fool He knows who believes in Him and who doesn't. They might fool the rest of us but not God.

One who believes, has godly fruits; he who has not the fruits, has not saved-faith.

I don't know what to say here Ben. You seem to want people to be constantly sinning to prove they are not saved or you want them to be constantly perfect to prove they are. There is a time coming when this will be so. The former will be in the lake of fire and the latter will be in the Kingdom of God. But until that day comes we cannot always see who is on what side of the fence because right now the Lord allows the two to live together and we only see as in a mirror dimly. I'm confident the Lord can sort the wheat from the chaff without my input on telling people how they must live their lives.

Those who are "constantly-sinning", are proving they are not saved.

Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors&#8212;to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." 1Sam.28:16-19

peace

Was he condemned for rejecting God?

 

[Ben johnson]

He will deny us what?

Maybe the same thing we deny Him in?

If a person does not deny He is the Saviour sent by God? Then He won't deny them salvation.

peace

In Matt10:34-35, if we deny Jesus before men, then He will deny us before God; "perish" can be the only meaning.

2Tim2:11-13 clearly presents "faithlessness" and "not-reigning" as possible; even though HE remains faithful to those who perish.

 

[heymikey80]

Your position on James 1 holds an interesting question........how can a person who is dead, die? (And we know that this passage is talking about spiritual death, for all men even those hwo are the elect die physically).

You know the slogan: "Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once."
You know "the Second Death" is reserved for those whose names aren't written in the Book of Life.

If you have a question about what it means to be resurrected to punishment, to enduring the Second Death, I'm sure you can search the Scriptures for answers there.

Ultimately James is talking about death in general. I don't see any reason to think his reference doesn't mean physical death. It may mean this-life, even, as Adam's desire for sin gave way to death, and we share in that sin as well as that death. It may mean God's condemnation of the reprobate at the Last Day, who are resurrected to judgment and then enter the Second Death. And it may even mean some kind of spiritual death -- a further spiritual separation from God. Paul said, "I die daily." Do you think he lost his salvation daily?

In any event, you're still down to the same conclusion. James' audience is neither all-saved nor all-reprobate. This is the message for such an audience: that they're condemned unless they're perfect; their perfection must be inside & out; and so they need a Savior.

True no one is good but God alone, we as believers have the Spirit of God indwelling us, and He leads us in Holinness............why? Because He is the Holy Spirit. Jesus also said that 'by this men shall know you are my disciples......by your love one for another,' and 'you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself,'

But ... we don't always love, and it would be a pernicious severity if, at that last moment in our lives, we were swept away by an emotion of hatred? If that's not what you're saying, what are you saying? That you can be so righteous in this life that your goodness outbalances your sinfulness "in the main" because of your love for Jesus?

What is it that could make this difference?

If it's the Spirit's indwelling us, making us so, you get no argument from Calvinists. It's just that we find the Holy Spirit to be God Almighty, and the work going on in us to be re-creation, not performance pressure.

I believe that the scriptures show that when we are born again it is our desire to serve God.......but over time that desire can waver (either in wanting to serve God or our reasons for doing it ala the church at Ephasus that had lost its first love and was going to have the lampstand removed if they did not repent). the parable of the sower in Luke shows what can happen to those who receive the word and believe for a little while and yet wither because of persecution on account of the word (believe hear meaning they were saved, for this is the deffinition that Jesus gives of believe in the context of the passage).

Ephesus is a whole church, loss of the Lampstand doesn't kill all the believers there, do you think?

Luke describes people whose belief is "skin deep". What they believe is not said. "Even the demons believe; and quake." There are definitely forms of belief that don't save. The form of belief that does save is relying primarily on Jesus Christ to save, and not ourselves, our thoughts, our actions.

Even "faith plus ...." -- add law, works, actions, will, speech, anything that you hold is just as important as faith -- even that doesn't save.

As to my original question about continuation in sin, while I believe God is far more merciful than either of us is able to conscieve, the scriptures to me show that if we continue in sin then we are a slave to sin and a slave has no place in the Fathers household.

What about

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself

I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

​

There are others like them.

My appologies if my words sound harsh but I only say what I see the scriptures say.

Me too. It's just that I don't think the Scriptures aren't saying what you're understanding them to say. They are warning us of self-deception, of a shallow "fondness" for God that withers in the heat of challenge and not utter reliance -- faith -- in God. They aren't warning us of a line in the sand that, if we cross it, we undo our re-creation and become unsaved.

 

[heymikey80]

Hi, "Mike". How do you change "God has mercy on ALL" (Rom12:32) into "God has mercy on SOME"?

"all" in Greek is an adjective. It doesn't always mean "all people", it's a qualifier of the nouns in the passage. The groups in scope are "Jews" and "nations". "all" qualifies them -- all nations.

There are three vessels in that passage; "honor", "dishonor" (NASV calls them "Common"), and "vessels of wrath prepared (themselves) for destruction". You accept that "atimia" means "common"; will you accept that those God prepares ("honor/common"), are both SAVED, and on the wheel when He prepares them?

No, because "atimia" means "shame" primarily. "koine" means "common" as you're wishing Paul to have used it here, now.

Do you accept that "wrath-prepared-destruction" vessels are NOT prepared so by God?

No, I don't accept that. I've no reason to accept that. The most you've ever shown for this argument is that it might be that, if we take the lesser meaning of the passive sense as being the middle, and make these words softer than they really are. But if you don't take this special case you don't reach the same conclusion.

There's no reason to conclude from "it might be different" to "it must be different."

Rom9:11-21, is not "theological dictate". Paul's words were written to those who objected to Gentiles also being saved. Hence, "You might answer back".

Really. Where's "You might answer back" in Rom 9:11-21? It doesn't even appear in Paul's explanation up to Romans 9:19, as far as I can tell.

Paul's response to 9:19 doesn't seem to be "Oh, you can think that, sure" is it? Or how might it be that "Oh you might think that" could be derived from, "Who are you to answer back to God?"

God does not sovereignly decree faith and salvation (and even if by negligence sovereignly decree perishing), and then run a "Final Judgment" judging men for their good or bad choices.

Why would God hold a Final Judgment at all then, since "we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin" Rom 3:9

For that matter, why run anything at the end? Why not just grab & go with the people God can see will make it?

But He does. He does hold a judgment. He defines a universal history. Everyone makes his appearance before the God of the Universe, to hear from the Infallible his sentence.

God thinks it's right.

 

[drstevej]

God thinks it's right.

The "Let's make God FAIR" crowd has shrunk God to the point where they can check mate him with their autonomy.

Such autonomy is pretended atuonomy. It is shoveling snow in March while decrying global warming.

 

[sawdust]

In Matt10:34-35, if we deny Jesus before men, then He will deny us before God; "perish" can be the only meaning.[/i]

The context of the passage?

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. Matt.10:5&6

The passage you quote is applicable to the Jews during the tribulation. (and I think you may have meant verses 32&33)

2Tim2:11-13 clearly presents "faithlessness" and "not-reigning" as possible; even though HE remains faithful to those who perish.

It doesn't say "to those who perish", you are assuming that. It says "because He cannot disown Himself".

Who are those who are "Himself" in this passage? All those who believe in Him because they have been baptised into His death and hence baptised into His life. (v.11) This life and death is guaranteed by virtue of the baptism of the Spirit.

The problem is you keep seeing the size of our faith as the prerequisite to salvation. If that were the case then how much is enough? If we had to be as full as Christ, then all of us are in dire straits. But as they say "size doesn't matter". It's whether you have any faith at all and if you believe in Christ then you have faith. You might need a microscope to see it but you have it. Unbelievers on the other hand have no faith at all.

Our perseverance in the faith can only occur if we first have the faith in which to persevere.

If we do endure? Then we are rewarded with responsibilities in heaven (reign) because we have shown our selves trustworthy with the Word now in this life.

If we do not endure? Then we will not be trusted with more of the Word in heaven. We could have lived like a queen (if we endured) but instead we will live like a peasant in the greatest kingdom of all.

peace

 

[sawdust]

If they "remain as children", then they never overcome sin. And he WHO overcomes, shall be clothed in white garments and shall not be erased from the Book of Life. Rev3:10

I'm only going to respond to this bit. (it's a time thing)

Now before I speak I want you to know I'm backing away to a very high mountain and I'm doing that because I'm about to start yelling. I don't want you to think I am yelling in your face because I want every Christian in the world to hear this.











SIN IS NO LONGER THE ISSUE IN A CHRISTIAN'S LIFE. IF YOU TRY TO MAKE SIN THE ISSUE, YOU WILL FAIL EVERY TIME. NO-ONE CAN OVERCOME SIN BUT CHRIST AND HE DID THIS ON THE CROSS. "IT IS FINISHED" (Jn:19:30). YOU HAVE BUT ONE RESPONSIBILTY IN REGARDS TO SIN. "NAME IT, FORGET IT, MOVE ON." (1Jn:1:9)










Ok I'm back.

What we are to overcome in this life is evil. Evil is false thinking (false doctrine) in the soul.

Evil is like coat pegs on the "coat rack" of our life. Sin is like the coats that are hung there. It is the sin nature that does the hangin up of the coats.

As long as the pegs are there, the sin nature will hang a coat upon it. We are to get rid of the pegs and we do this by learning God's truth (the Word). The word of God in our soul removes the pegs and gives no room for the sin nature to hang up a coat (Psalm.119:11 and Col.3:16). Hence, we sin less as we grow in the knowledge of Christ. As long as we hold onto false thinking the sin nature has a place to work in our life.

As long as we are in this body the sin nature will hang up coats. It's the nature of the beast, it can do nothing else. There is not a darn thing we can do to stop it. We are utterly powerless to overcome sin.

If you do sin, then simply say "that was sin". Don't make promises you will never do it again, don't beat yourself over the head with it, don't ignore it, don't wallow in guilt about it, don't try and shake yourself up in the hopes next time you will be stronger .... and the list goes on. You couldn't do anything the first time round to stop it what makes you think you can do anything now to stop it?

Instead, simply call it for what it is then forget about it and move on to sitting at the feet of our Lord and learn His truth. Eventually the truth you need for that sin to no longer be a problem in your life will become a part of who you are in the Lord. Not only will the sin itself disappear from your life but the temptation to sin will have less and less power over you. In some areas of your life, temptation will lose it's power altogether and you will look back and wonder why it was that you committed that particular sin in the first place.

be at peace (please, especially over the issue of sin)

 

[Rightglory]

sawdust,

SIN IS NO LONGER THE ISSUE IN A CHRISTIAN'S LIFE. IF YOU TRY TO MAKE SIN THE ISSUE, YOU WILL FAIL EVERY TIME. NO-ONE CAN OVERCOME SIN BUT CHRIST AND HE DID THIS ON THE CROSS. "IT IS FINISHED" (Jn:19:30). YOU HAVE BUT ONE RESPONSIBILTY IN REGARDS TO SIN. "NAME IT, FORGET IT, MOVE ON." (1Jn:1:9)

Wow. Kinda contrary to scripture.
Sin is the ONLY problem that keeps us from remaining IN Christ. Sin still separates man from God. Always has and always will.
Show me in scripture where Christ eradicated sin? Show me where in this life we don't live in our fallen natures? Show me anywhere that Satan is totally ineffective in a Christians life?
For that matter, why would he even exist, post Christ. Christ atoned for the sins of the world. By your statement, then every single human being no longer has a sin problem.
I think you need to rethink that theological statement in the light of scripture.