Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ben johnson]

Paul disagrees.
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Hi, "Mike". How do you change "God has mercy on ALL" (Rom12:32) into "God has mercy on SOME"?

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" Rom 9:18-19

Paul doesn't answer this by saying, "Oh, well, you resist His will." Nothing of the sort.
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Rom 9:20-21

There are three vessels in that passage; "honor", "dishonor" (NASV calls them "Common"), and "vessels of wrath prepared (themselves) for destruction". You accept that "atimia" means "common"; will you accept that those God prepares ("honor/common"), are both SAVED, and on the wheel when He prepares them? Do you accept that "wrath-prepared-destruction" vessels are NOT prepared so by God?

It doesn't appear Paul is answering consistently with your view.

Rom9:11-21, is not "theological dictate". Paul's words were written to those who objected to Gentiles also being saved. Hence, "You might answer back".

God does not sovereignly decree faith and salvation (and even if by negligence sovereignly decree perishing), and then run a "Final Judgment" judging men for their good or bad choices.

 

[moonbeam]

Anyoen who believes a person can loose their salvation, makes manifest that they are trusting in themselves..

i agree wholeheartedly...Ben johnsone being a prominent example of such people...it makes me wonder if they have in fact met the Lord...so as to know Him...and His grace?

 

[Ben johnson]

As you see it, we are goats but the word doesn't see it that way.

Hi, Sawdust. You knew I was going to reply; I hope you accept my reply is in a good spirit, and not just being argumentative with you. I respect you, and consider you both "saved sister", and intelligent.

I don't see us as "goats"; the goats, are those who pursue sin rather than beloning to God through Jesus.

Let's go back to the Laodiceans. You asked me earlier "am I sure they are saved". My answer? Yes, 100% sure Why?

1. Christ calls them the church. When Christ spoke to the "goats" in Matthew 7:23 He says "I never knew you". Does Christ not know His own body?
2. He loves them with a brotherly love. To be brothers you have to have the same father. God loves unbelievers with an "agape" love but never a "phileo" love. Agape love is dependant on the one doing the loving. It is a love that comes from the virtue of the lover. Phileo love is a love based on the object of one's love. It means there is some virtue in the object for loving. In the case of the Laodiceans, it is not their current behaviour that is the virtue but their position as sons of God.

To me, saying "I will vomit you from My mouth", is God saying "you don't belong".

3. It is what is not there in the passage. Christ instructs them to buy "gold, eye salve and clothes". If they were unbelievers He would instruct them in the Gospel (the Gospel is the power unto salvation) not instruct them to purchse those things that accompany salvation.

By saying "buy guld/salve/clothes", he's saying "turn back to Me". Can't mean anything else.

Notice that by saying "If any man hears My voice and OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in and sup with him, and he with me." --- he is saying "your door is closed."

There are other reasons I believe they are saved but those are the top three.

I hope you can explain to me why you see "Spew-from-My-mouth", as "still-belonging".

I explained what the writer meant by "living". The problem with the recipients of the Hebrew letter is not that they don't have salvation but that they are refusing to grow up in the salvation they have been giving (given?). Eternal life is knowing God. (Jn.17:3)

Yes! Bravo! One of my favorite verses.

These people know God. They have the basic doctines regarding Christ (see Heb.6:1&2). What they are refusing is to know more of God. In other words the writer is encouraging them to not refuse God's teaching about Himself and grow up into the full knowledge of God not just a partial knowledge. This can only happen within the confines (control) of the filling of the Spirit. If a believer is not living the new life (the spiritual life) that God has given him then it will be impossible for them to know more of God. It is the Holy Spirit who makes known to us the things of God.

Do you see a subject change between "those who should be mature (but aren't)", and "those who are falling away and regard Jesus with contempt"? I don't; he's saying simply, "Grow up, and don't stay always studying repentance; 'cause those who WERE saved but are fall-ING away, they're unable to be restored to repentance WHILE they regard Jesus with such casual disdain."

Like I explained before. If what I am telling you is the truth and you refuse to believe it? You are refusing the word of God. God's word is truth.

Nice --- you're reflecting what Gamaliel said (Acts5:33); but each of us must be wary that what we're teaching really is of God.

One of us is refusing the truth or it might be both of us are wrong and both of us are refusing the truth. The truth is more than the Gospel. It is the whole counsel of God covering every area of one's life for both time and eternity. The Gospel is what saves us and the rest of God's counsel teaches us how to live in that salvation and the blessings we have if we do and the discipline we can expect if we don't.

And part of that Gospel is the new birth; where we are EITHER slaves to sin, OR slaves to God and righteousness.

As John eloquently says, "In Him there is no sin at all; he who sins, does not know Him."

I never said it wasn't. One of the doctrines of scripture is the "Law of Volitional Responsibility". In a nutshell it is "what a man sows, he reaps". But unlike what one poster tried to suggest, man's volition never has ultimate dominance over God's will.

It's a question of sequence. Do we humble ourselves BECAUSE God has favored us (with sovereign regeneration)? Or does God RECEIVE those who HUMBLE themselves before Him? I perceive the latter.

There is at least one thing that both believers and unbelievers share and that is the end of time. (and I don't just mean the very end) Every person gets one life to live in time then it ends.

(Tell that to my cat; she's proven that she has more than one life...)

When it ends there are no more choices of an "either/or" nature. You will do God's will in total (?) or you are not in His Kingdom. It is no shame to a believer who has learnt to do His will in this lifetime but to the one who has only learnt to do God's will in part, they will know shame (briefly) at the evaluation seat of Christ as their error is burnt up and destroyed. This is not a private evaluation. All his brethen is present. Yet because he aligned his will with God's will on at least one occasion (he believed in Christ), his shame has an ending. The unbeliever, on the other hand, has not even done this much. His shame is eternal and the source of his torment.

What you're missing, is that he who refuses God NOW, regardless of that "one occasion of believing", is identical in spirit (and condemnation) as he who has NEVER believed.

Most people refuse to humble themselves before God. That's why there are so few believers...
Publicly, the world accepts (and encourages) such refusal. If a "believer" refuses to listen to God, and continues to refuse, he/she isn't a believer.

If they are a believer then they haven't refused to listen to God. They have, at the very least, listened to His word of first importance, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and hence are saved. What is no guarantee is that they will continue to listen to the whole counsel of God.

The essence of "saved", is "Christ IN US". A belief that does not DWELL in Christ and WALK with the Spirit,[/b] is not a belief at all.

Yes there is, King Saul was one. Started well, stuffed up. Went from bad to worse till he took his own life. Yet Samuel told him that he (Saul) would be with Samuel after death. So unless you think Samuel wasn't in Paradise .... ????

Chapter and verse? I haven't studied that; but Jesus plainly said "no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will know them by their fruit."

 

[Ben johnson]

Anyone who believes a person can loose their salvation, makes manifest that they are trusting in themselves..

Not at all --- Scripture states "we're saved by grace, through faith". Faith, is believing; and belief can be deceived to unbelief.

That's why Peter warns us to "be all the more diligent about our calling and election ...that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us" (2:1:5-10). Paul warns us to "be careful about out teaching, persevere in these things; as we DO we will save ourselves..." (1Tim4:16)

If we abide in Christ, He will abide in us. We are warned TO abide in Christ in 1Jn2:26-28, in context with "Deceivers trying to deceive us" --- the consequence clearly being "shrinking-in-shame at Jesus' return".

The dual nature of our salvation, is excelllently conveyed in 2Tim1:12-14: "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him; now (you!) guard, through the Holy Spirit, the treasure entrusted to you.""

The treasure entrusted, is eternal life; and we are to guard it.

i agree wholeheartedly...Ben johnson being a prominent example of such people...it makes me wonder if they have in fact met the Lord...so as to know Him...and His grace?

I do not question if you have met Him --- I presume you have. What in my words have hinted that I have not, or that I have "trusted in myself"?

Hopefully by this post you understand me better now.

 

[Ben johnson]

Well, 1 Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:21, Eph. 5:5 certainly seem to have been written as warnings to "believers."

Indeed. Excellent point.

Gal. 5:4 speaks of those who have "fallen from grace" and been "severed from Christ." The most straightforward way to interpret that is they "were" in a state of grace, but "now" are NOT so; they "were" joined to Christ, but "now" are NOT.

It's really not open to interpretation; they were BEGUN IN THE SPIRIT (3:3), they were running well and obeying the truth (5:7), they were KNOWN by God (4:9). No way they could have been anything but "saved".

The only option to "deal" with this letter, is to presume "it's not real, it's saying if they DO turn back to grace THEN they would be fallen/severed but this is written as 100% effective means by which they will NOT forsake 'grace' in favor of 'works'."

Heb. 6:6 alludes to the possibility that some might fall away, and the impossibility of their ever again being renewed.

It's important to understand that the "falling" is real, that they WERE saved, and that the "impossibility" is because of their hard hearts. "Adunatos" means "impossible/unable/powerless/impotent". And with the participle verb, he's only saying "it's impossible/unable to restore them to repentance, WHILE they are falling away and putting Christ to open shame".

The word "while" is the footnote on "since/because" in NASV.

It may not be "provable," but that does seem to be the most normal way to interpret several passages.

I agree with you; we are warned time and time again against deceivers --- and the deception is clearly "away from Christ". Col2:6-8 plainly states it, 2Pet3:17 does. Many others too.

Mostly agree with your post; well done.

 

[Ben johnson]

So in light of this passage (Hebrew 6:4-6 actually) what do you do with the person who has fallen away then? You don't try to restore them do you? Because it is crystal clear here that they have no hope at returning.

The problem (as stated in the passage) is with their "willful apostasy". In no way does it conflict Rom11:21-23: "If they do not CONTINUE in unbelief, they will be grafted in again".

Again - we're back to the biggest hang-up that responsible-gracers have - that it is impossible for the fallen away to return in light of this passage.

Nope --- the passage is clear; impossible/powerless "because" (NIV), "since" (NAS), "seeing-as" (KJV), WHILE (NAS footnote) they ARE fall-ING away.

 

[NorrinRadd]

So in light of this passage (Hebrew 6:4-6 actually) what do you do with the person who has fallen away then? You don't try to restore them do you? Because it is crystal clear here that they have no hope at returning.

Again - we're back to the biggest hang-up that responsible-gracers have - that it is impossible for the fallen away to return in light of this passage.

Right, a person who is genuinely born-again and then genuinely abandons faith is irretrievably lost. That's why John says (in 1 John 5, IIRC) not to even pray for them.

(That's one of the disagreements I have with Wesleyanism, in contrast to more classical Arminianism. If I understand his doctrine correctly, Wesley taught that people can be alternately "lost" and "found" over and over.)

Personally, unless I perceived God leading me otherwise, I would pray and work to restore someone ostensibly "lost" in that way, because I wouldn't be sure they were really saved to start with, or that they had really abandoned Him.

 

[Ben johnson]

Try not to misrepresent my understanding. The SIN INDWELLING is OF THE DEVIL...so NO, it's not just a bunch of past actions, but an ACTIVE PRESENCE of the DEVIL that IS in everyone...because those who sin ARE OF THE DEVIL.

Ah --- sorry then to "mis-state".

"Men will be judged at the Final Judgment, and eternal life is granted to those who have sought glory and honor and immortality; but those who have sought SIN, will have the devils that CAUSED them to seek sin thrown into the Lake of Fire and then THEY will also be given immortality.


That seems to conflict Rom2:6-8, doesn't it?
"God will render (at the Judgment) to each man according to his deeds; to those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

How can "wrath-indignation", turn into "eternal-life"?

 

[Ormly]

Not at all --- Scripture states "we're saved by grace, through faith". Faith, is believing; and belief can be deceived to unbelief.

That's why Peter warns us to "be all the more diligent about our calling and election ...that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us" (2:1:5-10). Paul warns us to "be careful about out teaching, persevere in these things; as we DO we will save ourselves..." (1Tim4:16)

If we abide in Christ, He will abide in us. We are warned TO abide in Christ in 1Jn2:26-28, in context with "Deceivers trying to deceive us" --- the consequence clearly being "shrinking-in-shame at Jesus' return".

The dual nature of our salvation, is excelllently conveyed in 2Tim1:12-14: "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him; now (you!) guard, through the Holy Spirit, the treasure entrusted to you.""

The treasure entrusted, is eternal life; and we are to guard it.
I do not question if you have met Him --- I presume you have. What in my words have hinted that I have not, or that I have "trusted in myself"?

Hopefully by this post you understand me better now.

What makes you believe they don't understand . . . . and don't care?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Not at all --- Scripture states "we're saved by grace, through faith". Faith, is believing; and belief can be deceived to unbelief.

Anyone believing you can loose your salvation is in contradiciton to the very words of Christ..

Jn 10:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

If you say its possible still for them to perish, then you contradict christ, who says they shall never perish, never means never..

 

[MarkEvan]

Yes. I do call walking in sin walking in darkness and the verse you quote is precisely what I have been trying to explain.

If we walk in the dark (sin), we do NOT HAVE FELLOWSHIP. It means we are not relating to God. We are not filled with the Spirit and wakling by faith. The truth of God is not controlling the way we live our lives.

This does not mean we have become "unadopted". It does not mean we have been transferred back into the kingdom of darkess. It does not mean the Spirit no longer indwells our body. It does not break the seal with which we are sealed. It does not strip us of our position (and hence responsibilities) of being Christ's ambassadors. It does not strip us of the title of being a royal priest.

"It is finished" (Jn.19:30)

Our salvation from death is 100% secured. We will never enter the second death.

If we walk in the dark what it does do is make us appear as if we are unbelievers because that is the way in which we are trying to live. But it never alters our positional truth we have in Christ.

If it actually undid our positional truth GOD WOULD NOT DISCIPLINE US. He does not discipline those who do not belong to Him.

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Heb.12:7&8

peace

My appologies for the length of time it has taken to reply, i don`t have access to the internet over the weekend and so only found the replys today.



I am glad that we agree that walking in darkness (sin) means that we do not fellowship with God, nor are we walking by faith or the Spirit but we are walking according to the flesh.............Paul tells us in Romans 8 that to walk according to the flesh is death, and while I will say that a believer doesn`t forfeit salvation with only one sin they do if they continue in sin......hence James 1 - 13, 14 and 15. We know that the wages of sin is death but that Christ came to set us free from that sin and death, We know that as believers we have the victory over sin hence Romans 6 'you shall not allow sin to exersize dominion in your members,' our members are to be used for righteousness. What then is the consequence of using our members for wickedness (continuation in sin)? Jesus says that we are a slave to whatever masters us, if we are mastered by any sin then according to Jesus we are slaves to that.........and slaves do not inherit the kingdom prepaired by the Father for the Son (John 8 30 onwards).
So is it possible for a believer to sin? Yes.........(look at Peter when Paul had to admonish him). Is It possible for a believer to continue in sin? Yes.......(just reading Pauls letters proves this, as does judes letter, as do the letters of Jesus to the seven churches). Therefore the question becomes..........what is the consequence of continuation in sin for a believer? The scriptures I believe are clear..............death.




Mark

 

[MarkEvan]

I've no qualms saying it: James isn't talking strictly to believers. He's talking to a wide congregation.

When you (this is the abstract "you") start assuming that people in the Apostolic church are all believers, then you get rather odd statements from the Apostles. But if you assume the Apostolic church is much like ours -- wheat and tares -- a number of congregational challenges start to pop out of the Apostolic letters.

Hi Mike,

Your position on James 1 holds an interesting question........how can a person who is dead, die? (And we know that this passage is talking about spiritual death, for all men even those hwo are the elect die physically).

Happy to. "No one is good but God alone." "Anyone angry with his brother is liable to judgment." "An enemy has done this."

True no one is good but God alone, we as believers have the Spirit of God indwelling us, and He leads us in Holinness............why? Because He is the Holy Spirit. Jesus also said that 'by this men shall know you are my disciples......by your love one for another,' and 'you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself,'

Speaking for myself, and knowing nbf, I don't think that it would be permanent. But I've certainly continually sinned and known a number of people who continually sinned, whom I know to rely on Christ. I think the larger question is whether the Spirit actually re-created someone who then refused to follow Him. Do you really believe that the Spirit would make a new creature that would defy Him?

I believe that the scriptures show that when we are born again it is our desire to serve God.......but over time that desire can waver (either in wanting to serve God or our reasons for doing it ala the church at Ephasus that had lost its first love and was going to have the lampstand removed if they did not repent). the parable of the sower in Luke shows what can happen to those who receive the word and believe for a little while and yet wither because of persecution on account of the word (believe hear meaning they were saved, for this is the deffinition that Jesus gives of believe in the context of the passage).
As to my original question about continuation in sin, while I believe God is far more merciful than either of us is able to conscieve, the scriptures to me show that if we continue in sin then we are a slave to sin and a slave has no place in the Fathers household.





Mark



My appologies if my words sound harsh but I only say what I see the scriptures say.

 

[squint]

Ah --- sorry then to "mis-state".

"Men will be judged at the Final Judgment, and eternal life is granted to those who have sought glory and honor and immortality; but those who have sought SIN, will have the devils that CAUSED them to seek sin thrown into the Lake of Fire and then THEY will also be given immortality.


That seems to conflict Rom2:6-8, doesn't it?
"God will render (at the Judgment) to each man according to his deeds; to those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation."

How can "wrath-indignation", turn into "eternal-life"?

Paul clearly taught that in THE SAME LUMP there are TWO VESSELS.

One unto HONOR and one of DISHONOR.

God is presently "tolerating" the vessels of DISHONOR whom HE is USING in behalf of the vessels of HONOR.

The "use," that VESSEL OF DISHONOR...is in part to DEMONstrate ETERNAL MERCY to the VESSEL OF HONOR and Divine Judgment and Eternal Wrath on the VESSEL OF DISHONOR.

So no Ben, neither YOU or I or any other person is ALONE in the flesh or mind. We HAVE the presence of EVIL with us.

Paul effectively eradicates your intentions of people NOT being saved unless they believe in Romans 11:26-32 wherein Paul OPENLY DECLARES that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who were MADE ENEMIES of the Gospel. These DIED in the flesh under the sin of UNbelief.

IF we look to the top portion of Romans 11, we can also clearly see that it was God Himself who placed upon the people of Israel a "spirit of stupor" again showing the presence of the VESSEL of DISHONOR who was upon them ALL.

So NO, there is not just A MAN...in the body...there is also A USURPER...a MAN OF SIN. One will be taken and one will be left behind in judgments that will reign down upon them when God calls the time.

enjoy!

squint

 

[drstevej]

Eternal Life
Shall never perish
Them He also glorified.

pretty much says it

 

[sawdust]

Hi, Sawdust. You knew I was going to reply; I hope you accept my reply is in a good spirit, and not just being argumentative with you. I respect you, and consider you both "saved sister", and intelligent.

No I don't see you as being argumentative but rather highly passionate about what you believe. I think it is why I like you Ben because it seems to me we both have this same quality in our personality. Of course, passion alone doesn't necessarily make one right. (and I say that for my benefit as much as yours) Passion can make one as deeply blind as much as it can give one great insight.

I don't see us as "goats"; the goats, are those who pursue sin rather than beloning to God through Jesus.

I think you may have misunderstood something here. I wasn't trying to say you see the posters who disagree with you in this thread as goats. I understand the type of person (at least I think I do) that you are alluding to. But herein lies a problem. The majority of verses that you refer to are actually people pursuing righteousness, not sin. It is just that in their pursuit they have gotten off on the wrong track. My pastor puts it this way.

A wrong thing done in a wrong way is wrong.
A wrong thing done in a right way is wrong.
A right thing done in a wrong way is wrong.
A right thing done in a right way is right.

A good many of the people in scripture who are warned about "refusing God" or "fallen from grace" etc are people who are looking to do the right thing but they are trying to do it in the wrong way.

To me, saying "I will vomit you from My mouth", is God saying "you don't belong".

Yes. He is saying "you don't belong". But He is not saying "you don't belong in the Kingdom" He is saying "you don't belong in close and intimate communion with me.". These Laodicean brothers and sisters have proven they cannot be trusted with the Word they have been given, therefore Christ is not going to trust them with more. If they don't heed His word, instead of sitting on His throne with Him, they will be sitting on the floor in a very unceremonious manner (spat out His mouth), but they are still a citizen of the Kingdom.

By saying "buy guld/salve/clothes", he's saying "turn back to Me". Can't mean anything else.

But as I tried to explain before Ben, if these people are not saved why is Christ not giving them the Gospel so they might be saved? Why is He instructing them in matters that pertain to a child of God? Things that only a child of God can do? You have to enter the shop before you can make a purchase. Unbelievers haven't gone inside. They can't make a "purchase" from Christ. They don't even believe in Him as being Saviour. Unbelievers are not in a relationship with God, good or bad, to even begin making transactions with Him.

Notice that by saying "If any man hears My voice and OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in and sup with him, and he with me." --- he is saying "your door is closed."

Yes, your door being the operative here. In other words if you won't walk in close fellowship with me then I can't walk in close fellowship with you. "You" have shut me out but I am faithful even if you are not and I'm still standing here waiting for you.

I hope you can explain to me why you see "Spew-from-My-mouth", as "still-belonging".

Well I did try. Whether you will understand or not ... ??? It seems to me Ben you don't distinguish between "positional truth" and "experiential truth". Putting that another way.

If Christ was Fort Knox? Then when we believe, it is like the Father takes us and puts us in Fort Knox and declares "all this is yours". Positionally it is ours, it remains so forever, experientially it is Christ's. If we are to make our position also our experience then Christ's life must be transferred to us and become a part of us. This can only happen as we walk by means of the Spirit contolling our soul and relying upon the word (faith). But whether we do that or not we still remain children of God. Our position in Christ remains secure from the moment we believe in Him. What is not guaranteed is His position in us, that is, how much of His word dwells in us. The bare facts that Christ died for us? Or will we take in the full counsel of God, rightly dividing His word?

Do you see a subject change between "those who should be mature (but aren't)", and "those who are falling away and regard Jesus with contempt"? I don't; he's saying simply, "Grow up, and don't stay always studying repentance; 'cause those who WERE saved but are fall-ING away, they're unable to be restored to repentance WHILE they regard Jesus with such casual disdain."

No I don't see a subject change. Yes he is saying "grow up" because those who are saved and growing and stop growing before they reach maturity (falling away) remain as children. And just like children who do not fully appreciate their toys and the cost of them to their parents, so too are you (those in the verses), if you remain in this childish thinking. All you do is trash the gifts you have been given.

The context of the passage is growth. They are falling away from growing up not from their position of being a son.

Nice --- you're reflecting what Gamaliel said (Acts5:33); but each of us must be wary that what we're teaching really is of God.

Actually I'm hoping that's a typo and you meant verse 39 and not 33 otherwise I might have to think you want me dead for what I have said.

It's a question of sequence. Do we humble ourselves BECAUSE God has favored us (with sovereign regeneration)? Or does God RECEIVE those who HUMBLE themselves before Him? I perceive the latter.

Well I'm not really sure what you are getting at. Generally speaking, humility must be enforced at first. Take any 3yo for a week and you soon realise humility is not a natural strong point. Hopefully though most of us learn quickly enough to recognise the value of humility and incorporate it into our lives.

(Tell that to my cat; she's proven that she has more than one life...)

Gladly. Will she listen to me?

What you're missing, is that he who refuses God NOW, regardless of that "one occasion of believing", is identical in spirit (and condemnation) as he who has NEVER believed.

Almost. .... "is identical in appearance. But they are not the same as an unbeliever nor can they ever be. They are born again, adopted as a son (of God), citizens of heaven, given the title of Royal Priest, indwelt by God the Spirit, Son and the Father, sealed, are appointed an Ambassador of Christ, baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit ... they are just the differences I can think of off the top of my head. None of those things can be seen, touched, smelt, heard or tasted but they occur the moment we believe in Christ and they are not undone. The Lord is no fool He knows who believes in Him and who doesn't. They might fool the rest of us but not God.

The essence of "saved", is "Christ IN US". A belief that does not DWELL in Christ and WALK with the Spirit,[/b] is not a belief at all.

I don't know what to say here Ben. You seem to want people to be constantly sinning to prove they are not saved or you want them to be constantly perfect to prove they are. There is a time coming when this will be so. The former will be in the lake of fire and the latter will be in the Kingdom of God. But until that day comes we cannot always see who is on what side of the fence because right now the Lord allows the two to live together and we only see as in a mirror dimly. I'm confident the Lord can sort the wheat from the chaff without my input on telling people how they must live their lives.

Chapter and verse? I haven't studied that; but Jesus plainly said "no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will know them by their fruit.

Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." 1Sam.28:16-19

peace

 

[Oye11]

i agree wholeheartedly...Ben johnsone being a prominent example of such people...it makes me wonder if they have in fact met the Lord...so as to know Him...and His grace?

The one I may be inclined to wonder about is the one who displays such conceit in a set of nonessential theological concepts. It`s like "Lord let me in, I`m a Calvinist." But then again, who am I to judge?

 

[nobdysfool]

Nobody. Judgment is not left to any of us. It is God who will judge, and with Righteous Judgment, not flawed humanistic judgment.

 

[frumanchu]

The problem (as stated in the passage) is with their "willful apostasy". In no way does it conflict Rom11:21-23: "If they do not CONTINUE in unbelief, they will be grafted in again".
Nope --- the passage is clear; impossible/powerless "because" (NIV), "since" (NAS), "seeing-as" (KJV), WHILE (NAS footnote) they ARE fall-ING away.

See, BB. You've reduced him to grasping at a NAS footnote in the face of a verse that pretty clearly leaves his doctrine in the throws of despair and hopelessness.

It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. The verse is clear and immutable.

 

[frumanchu]

Scripture says quite plainly that God is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (Jude 1:24).

Any who would deny God's active and efficacious preservation of His people in their faith unto salvation must admit that the only other explanation for the fact that any would fall away is that He, while able to keep them from stumbling, is UNWILLING to keep them from stumbling. There is simply no other alternative.

But I doubt you'll hear them readily admit this cold truth...

 

[AndOne]

See, BB. You've reduced him to grasping at a NAS footnote in the face of a verse that pretty clearly leaves his doctrine in the throws of despair and hopelessness.

It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. The verse is clear and immutable.

Yep - there is just no gettin around it - no way, no how. Nothing obscure about that text - it says what it says and try as they might - there is nothing that any responsible gracer can do about it. They can either agree with it and send the fallen on their way to hell or they can twist it to mean something that it doesn't - and that isn't being very "responsible."