Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ben johnson]

He does not say what the imperishable wreath exactly is. Only you do. I believe its in reference to a crown... authority to know Christ, intimately. It will never perish if its granted.

The context includes Paul worrying that after he's preached to others, he himself could be "disqualified/unapproved".

So --- what was it that Paul preached? The Gospel of Jesus? Or better-crowns-for-believers?

The "race", is "towards Christ"; towards salvation. Paul wrote both 1Cor9, and 2Cor13; it is not credible to think that "adokimos" changes meanings especially when both instances were written by the same person.

In 2Cor13, we are to examine ourselves --- we are "In Christ", unless we are adokimos.

So "adokimos", expresses "not-in-Christ". Is there any credibility in asserting that "Paul did not mean the same thing in the other passage"? I don't see any credibility in that.

As for imperishable? Other things are also called imperishable. After all, we will be living in Eternity!

Peter does tell us what one thing he calls "imperishable," is.

1 Peter 1:23 (New International Version)

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

If the "born-again" condition, is through belief (and John1:12 plainly says it is), then the only question is "Can that belief ever become unbelief?"

Peter tells us right up front that our being born again is already imperishable. That, we can know.We can know what it is he is talking about.

No, he says the SEED of which we are born is imperishable. Look at the same chapter, verses 3-5; the INHERITANCE is imperishable and will not fade away; but it's reserved in Heaven FOR us. We POSSESS that inheritance, when we HAVE JESUS --- 1Jn5:11-13 is very clear. ("He who has the Son, has the eternal life").

But look at what 2Jn says: "He who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son."

Does it all begin to make sense?

Paul spoke of wreaths and crowns were rewarded to the winner of a race. Only if he wins!

He's saying "ALL of you, race so as to win". There's nothing in any of Paul's letters that asserts "oh you should strive for shiny crowns".

In contrast. Peter was speaking of our new birth which we already possess.

We possess the birth, as we posses Christ --- through faith.

This is the whole issue --- can saving-faith, become unbelief?

If so (and Scripture does say that, often) --- then salvation can become forfeit...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

can are salvation be forfeit?

NO...

John 1:13 Which where born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

if we are not born by are desire but God's how can we jump out of His hand...

God would not be all powerful would He? all knowing?

 

[Rightglory]

A Brother In Christ,

NO...
John 1:13 Which where born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.
if we are not born by are desire but God's how can we jump out of His hand...
God would not be all powerful would He? all knowing?

The verse says nothing about desire or will of man for that matter. The work of transformation of mankind and believer is all done by God. However, respective of the believer it is done through faith. Nothing is accomplished, nothing God can do, until and unless man believes. Vs 12 tells you point-blank that it is done for those that believe. But the believing is done by man. Man can become an unbeliever. If He does then God will not work in him sto transform him, to conform him to His Image.
Thus, once again, since we are saved throught faith, justified by faith, when we no longer have faith, we are no longer being saved. If one remains in this state until death, hell is the only answer since one is not saved outside of Christ. To be IN Christ requires faith.

 

[Rightglory]

A Brother In Christ,

NO...
John 1:13 Which where born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.
if we are not born by are desire but God's how can we jump out of His hand...
God would not be all powerful would He? all knowing?

The verse says nothing about desire or will of man for that matter. The work of transformation of mankind and believer is all done by God. However, respective of the believer it is done through faith. Nothing is accomplished, nothing God can do, until and unless man believes. Vs 12 tells you point-blank that it is done for those that believe. But the believing is done by man. Man can become an unbeliever. If He does then God will not work in him sto transform him, to conform him to His Image.
Thus, once again, since we are saved throught faith, justified by faith, when we no longer have faith, we are no longer being saved. If one remains in this state until death, hell is the only answer since one is not saved outside of Christ. To be IN Christ requires faith.

 

[GenemZ]

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[GenemZ]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
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"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
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genez,

Because it applies ONLY to overcome believers. It has absolutely nothing to do with those who departed the faith in this life. We cannot enter heaven impure and that is why believers will be purfied. There will be no unfaithful believers in heaven. They are consigned to hell.
Keep the text on topic. You are prooftexting using a text that is not even referencing unfaithful belivers or those who have departed, those that fell away, became apostatized.
It has nothing to do with rewards. Every single believer recieves a life IN Christ in eternity. To enter we need to be purified. That is all that verse is stating. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being unfaithful, it applies ONLY to the faithful.
However, the topic at hand are those who are believers, have entered into Christ's Kingdom but at some point in their life departed from the Kingdom, from the Body of Christ, became apostasized, could not endure to the end. They have been consigned as unbelievers to hell. The Bible is repleat with statments of this kind. In fact, most of the NT is directly addressing this very possiblity for every believer. It is the one thing that every believer must be on guard against. You have totally, completely overlooked the whole intent of the Gospel to believers.
Don't need to deny it. It has never existed in scripture and you have not shown that it has.

We are reading the same passage?I do not think so. Other than getting the "purification" aspect correct, I do not think you are reading the same passage as I am. As many others have.

What passage were you reading from?



I truly believe you might be reading some other passage. Let's make sure we are reading the same. Try saying the same thing, and cut and paste each part of that passage it pertains to with it. Then, we will see what you are relating to. For, what you said, with only one exception, has nothing to do with what that passage says.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
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"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
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In Christ, GeneZ




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[GenemZ]

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[GenemZ]

What some here are missing, is that they have a gut feeling that salvation can be lost. But, they placing it on the wrong emphasis.

They fail to see that an aspect of salvation can be lost, not salvation from the Lake of Fire. For, no one will ever snatch us out of the Father's hand. Nor, the Lord's.


Here is a passage about what salvation can be lost. But, not lost from the Lake of Fire! Note the words in red!

1 Peter 1:3-11 (New International Version)
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.


These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."



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See that?

The salvation of our soul is the salvation of overcoming the trials that come our way.. by means of FAITH!

What we believe = faith.

Romans 10:17 (New International Version)
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
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We are given trials ordained by God, to OVECOME.

We either do so by means of knowledge of God's Word by grace. Or? We attempt to escape them by means of our own works.

Knowledge of God's Word by grace? "Gold, silver and precious stones."

Escape by means of our own works? "Wood, hay, and stubble. "
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Note, why these trials must come in our lives...

"These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine."
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False doctrine followed, is faith proved not genuine.

Sound doctrine lived, is faith proved genuine!

False doctrine = wood, hay, stubble.

Burned up, and lost!
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Sound doctrine = Gold, silver, and precious stones.

Melted down (and transformed) into our crowns as our rewards!
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Yes! We can lose our salvation.
That is? ... The salvation of our souls! Saved from evil in this world!

So?..

Will we face the trials we are given in this life with grace and truth? Or, will we face them with stubborn human determinism with works of religion, psychology, aestheticism, etc? As escapism? Rather, than overcome?

"These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine."​

In Christ, GeneZ












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[Ormly]

What some here are missing, is that they have a gut feeling that salvation can be lost. But, they placing it on the wrong emphasis.

They fail to see that an aspect of salvation can be lost, not salvation from the Lake of Fire. For, no one will ever snatch us out of the Father's hand. Nor, the Lord's.

Can we willingly "snatch" ourselves from the Father's hand?

 

[Ormly]

What some here are missing, is that they have a gut feeling that salvation can be lost. But, they placing it on the wrong emphasis.

They fail to see that an aspect of salvation can be lost, not salvation from the Lake of Fire. For, no one will ever snatch us out of the Father's hand. Nor, the Lord's.

Can we willingly "snatch" ourselves from the Father's hand?

 

[nobdysfool]

relocate, yet again....

 

[nobdysfool]

Can we willingly "snatch" ourselves from the Father's hand?

Why would anyone want to? And desire is at the root of all choice.

 

[Ben johnson]

Why would anyone want to? And desire is at the root of all choice.

"Want" is something about which we must be diligent. Look at Heb3; we are warned not to "harden ourselves", warned to "take care lest we be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God". Clearly stated we are "partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

Then follows in the next chapter (4:11), another warning towards "diligence" --- that we not FALL and fail to enter God's rest, by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief."

It's the same in James' words; God tempts no one, but each is tempted when enticed and carried away by lusts; then lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death. "DO NOT BE DECEIVED, beloved brethren". No way he's talking to "unsaved", and no way that "sin brings death (thanatos)" doesn't ruin "unforfeitable salvation"...

 

[Ben johnson]

Why would anyone want to? And desire is at the root of all choice.

"Want" is something about which we must be diligent. Look at Heb3; we are warned not to "harden ourselves", warned to "take care lest we be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God". Clearly stated we are "partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

Then follows in the next chapter (4:11), another warning towards "diligence" --- that we not FALL and fail to enter God's rest, by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief."

It's the same in James' words; God tempts no one, but each is tempted when enticed and carried away by lusts; then lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death. "DO NOT BE DECEIVED, beloved brethren". No way he's talking to "unsaved", and no way that "sin brings death (thanatos)" doesn't ruin "unforfeitable salvation"....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

can are salvation be forfeit?

NO...

John 1:13 Which where born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

if we are not born by are desire but God's how can we jump out of His hand...

God would not be all powerful would He? all knowing?

A Brother In Christ,
The verse says nothing about desire or will of man for that matter. The work of transformation of mankind and believer is all done by God. However, respective of the believer it is done through faith. Nothing is accomplished, nothing God can do, until and unless man believes. Vs 12 tells you point-blank that it is done for those that believe. But the believing is done by man. Man can become an unbeliever. If He does then God will not work in him sto transform him, to conform him to His Image.
Thus, once again, since we are saved throught faith, justified by faith, when we no longer have faith, we are no longer being saved. If one remains in this state until death, hell is the only answer since one is not saved outside of Christ. To be IN Christ requires faith.

God the Father choses us.. eph 1:4
God the Father put his seed into are spirit .. 1 jn 3:9

Holy spirit coming along side and ministering.. heb 1:14, Jn 16:7-11

thank God that grace and faith is a gift from God .. eph 2:8

 

[Rightglory]

A Brother IN Christ.

God the Father choses us.. eph 1:4

He chose us IN Christ, and they are called elect and were predestined to be conformed to His Image. No place in Scipture nor has it ever meant that God chose us to be in Christ or chose anyone to be a believer. He chose believers to be conformed.
The ONLY way to enter into Christ is by faith. There is no other way, at least not revealed to us in Scripture.

God the Father put his seed into are spirit .. 1 jn 3:9

But the devil works through the flesh. Therefore the war between the spirit of man and the flesh of man. The will of man is what decides which direction that person will go. God does not coerce, neither does Satan. Both are working in you to do the will of either. It is you who chooses. It was from the beginning, Read the story of Adam. Best example in scripture.

Holy spirit coming along side and ministering.. heb 1:14, Jn 16:7-11

ONLY so long as we desire, so long as we endure, so long as man is faithful to the will of God. Man's responsibility is to align his will with the will of God. That is the purpose of revelation, so that we might know what God's will is for man. If God is doing it all without man, man has no need for any revelation. God will do what God will do. But God wanted a creature that could freely return love, not force love. Man is free to move from faith to no faith. We are saved through our faith. God works in man through our faith. I Pet 1:3-5.

thank God that grace and faith is a gift from God .. eph 2:8

But neither is the gift mentioned in that verse. Salvation is the gift. All men have faith and grace, which is also a gift. Everything we get from God is a gift. It is kinda moot to even state it. We get nothin on our own. We are creatures after all.

 

[GenemZ]

Can we willingly "snatch" ourselves from the Father's hand?

Does not matter. Jesus said that NO ONE will be able to do it. That includes the believer, himself!


Here is another.....

Romans 8:38-39 (New International Version)
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"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
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Is the believer a created being? If he is? He can not separate himself from the love of God. Now? If you have not been created? Then you might be able to separate yourself from the love of God.

The following is the crux of the problem.

Luke 18:10-14 (New International Version)
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'


"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'


"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."








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God saves pharisees. In spite of themselves. They tend to see themselves as more righteous than others because their disposition lends them to being religious and moral. If the pharisee type does not repent of how he is? He will have an affinity for certain types of teaching.
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So be it.
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[A Brother In Christ]

God the Father choses us.. eph 1:4
God the Father put his seed into are spirit .. 1 jn 3:9

Holy spirit coming along side and ministering.. heb 1:14, Jn 16:7-11

thank God that grace and faith is a gift from God .. eph 2:8

A Brother IN Christ.

He chose us IN Christ, and they are called elect and were predestined to be conformed to His Image. No place in Scipture nor has it ever meant that God chose us to be in Christ or chose anyone to be a believer. He chose believers to be conformed.
The ONLY way to enter into Christ is by faith. There is no other way, at least not revealed to us in Scripture.

grace and faith are a gift .. eph 2:8

But the devil works through the flesh. Therefore the war between the spirit of man and the flesh of man.

there is 4 enemies
the flesh ... gal 5:19-21
Satan.... 2 cor 2:11, eph 6:10-17
the world.... 1 john 2:15-17
finnally death ... rev 20:14

different defense for each one

The will of man is what decides which direction that person will go. God does not coerce, neither does Satan. Both are working in you to do the will of either. It is you who chooses. It was from the beginning, Read the story of Adam. Best example in scripture.

proverb 16:9 we choose the direction but God bring about circumstances to get us where He wants us!

ONLY so long as we desire, so long as we endure, so long as man is faithful to the will of God. Man's responsibility is to align his will with the will of God. That is the purpose of revelation, so that we might know what God's will is for man.

2 peter 1:4 That we might partake in divine nature right now ... if not latter

If God is doing it all without man, man has no need for any revelation. God will do what God will do. But God wanted a creature that could freely return love, not force love. Man is free to move from faith to no faith. We are saved through our faith. God works in man through our faith. I Pet 1:3-5.

maturity ... 1 jn 2:12-14
a child not not abide ... only young men abide =those who are comfortable with God's word

But neither is the gift mentioned in that verse. Salvation is the gift. All men have faith and grace,

ignoring eph 2:8

which is also a gift. Everything we get from God is a gift. It is kinda moot to even state it. We get nothin on our own. We are creatures after all.

Romans 9:8-13 Jacob I loved ... Esau I hated... before being born!

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

I have stated it several times already. This verse is totally, completely inapplicable to the context of the OP.

The OP is dealing with the fact that can or can we not lose faith, thus salvation in this life. The fact is we can and many do. Scripture is full of examples and warnings for believers to be on guard against falling out of Christ.

The verse you are using ONLY pertains to those who did endure, who were faithful to the end. The problem is that we are not perfect even as believers, faithful believers. The works we did in life that were not good, will be burned up. It is a purification that a beleiver goes through.

The problem you do not recognize is that if a believer falls from Christ, he is an unbeliever. Unbelievers are not purified before they enter hell. That is why the text is not applicable to the discussion.

The topic is about the movement of believers relative to faith during their lives. Not about those that do endure to the end.

 

[GenemZ]

The usual defect counter delete!