Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

Another delete....

 

[GenemZ]

And, yet another delete!

 

[GenemZ]

Yes, it does; the Greek uses "Adokimos". A term used with coins --- coins were gathered and examined to see if they still bore the image impressed upon them; if they didn't, they were "Adokimos-unapproved-disqualified-REJECTED". That it's undeniably salvational, we have only to look at 2Cor13:5: "Examine yourselves, TEST yourselves to see if you're in the faith; do you not realize this, that Christ is in you, unless you are ADOKIMOS-UNAPPROVED-FAILED-REJECTED?"

Its a stretch to say its only about salvation. Always about rejection... Yes. Always about salvation? No.

You quoted one verse that was to reveal if one was saved, or not. Then you leaped to say that Adokimos only pertains to salvation. After all? When Paul was speaking of running the race? He was talking about being in a race. Not for salvation itself. About running the race and winning the prize that salvation opens us up for!

1 Corinthians 9:24 (New American Standard Bible)
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win."
​

We are already saved. While we are saved? We are to run the race as to receive the prize.

The unbeliever? He's not even in the race.

Apples and oranges!

We will be disqualified and cast into outer darkness if our life produces wood, hay, and stubble! Outer darkness will be reserved for all those rejected to reign with Christ. They will be saved during that 1000 years. But, it will be a thousand years of regret.

Matthew 8:11-12 (New American Standard Bible)
"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
​

Look what that says! That speaks of what will take place AFTER the FIRST resurrection. If they were in the second resurrection They could not be with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! They could NOT be in Heaven!

They will be called "sons of the Kingdom!" They are saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But? Since they lived while one earth according to their natural way of thinking towards the Word of God? They will be rejected when it comes time for receiving the PRIZE!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
​

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
​

The self righteous believer will not lose his salvation from the Lake of Fire. He will lose his rewards. No PRIZE!

His title of authority will be blotted out, and he will be denied access to the earth during the Millennial reign of Christ. For if he can not follow orders correctly now? He will not do so at that time, either.

Jesus is now exposing self righteousness believers, and marking all such believers who refuse to repent and give it up. These ones will be cast into outer darkness (not the Lake of Fire) while those who were humble towards the Word of God, will be blessed to reign with the Lord as he rules the world.


Now? Why is it so important to you to be able to condemn those believers you do not approve of? If God chose to save them? And, refuses to send them to hell if they refuse to do his will? May I ask, what difference does that make to you? To any of us?

John 21:22 (New American Standard Bible)
​

"Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"
​

Jesus wanted us to mind our own business even in regards to someone who was faithful. I think those who believe they can lose their salvation are too pre-occupied with the failings of others.

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)
​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

1Tim6:10!!
"Rightly-dividing", demonstrates that the "truly-saved", can leave. And that wouldn't be JESUS losing them, but THEY CHOSE to leave."

How can they leave the one who will never leave them? If they are saved? He will never leave them. The Spirit may be grieved and quenched the whole time. But, he promised that he would NEVER leave the believer.

Hebrews 13:5 (New International Version)
​

"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."
​

I can not find a "but", or an "unless" clause, included with that passage. Have you? He said NEVER. Not, "maybe." Not, "most of the time."


Are you saying, I believe that because he has left me? Could be the way you see it.

Amazing how God will never make it cut and dry. We MUST be filled with the Spirit or we will believe to what ever appeals to our natural way of thinking. And, we will think we are the one who is right = self righteousness. Yes, I can see myself as being self righteous.



In Christ, GeneZ



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[Ormly]

There is a temporary place where the unfaithful resurrected believer will wait in as those who were faithful will reign with Christ for the Millennium on earth.

Matthew 8:11-12 (New American Standard Bible)​

"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ​

​

The Lake of Fire is never referred to as being an outer darkness. It burns! Not simply darkness. And, the torments the LOF induces will way exceed simply a weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This weeping and gnashing of teeth reveals the depth of regret and disappointment the believer will face as he is left out of partaking of reigning with Christ during the Millennium. Ever been not invited to a party and felt the dejection of being left out? Amplify that a million times, and know how those in outer darkness will feel as they are denied their reward of reigning with Christ.


Besides! Jesus would never call an unbeliever a "son of the kingdom."

Matthew 8:11-12 (New American Standard Bible)​

"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."​

​

What prompted Jesus to go into his talk about unfaithful believers? The Centurion had just revealed the kind of faith Christ seeks in the believer.

Matthew 8:10 (New American Standard Bible)​

"Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel." ​

​

The issue in the resurrection when we are to be evaluated, will be? What we based our faith upon. The true Word of God? Or, false doctrines.

Did we abide in the Spirit, and walk in grace and truth? [gold , silver, and precious stones].

Or? Did we abide in our emotions, and walk in doctrines that appealed to our particular natural leanings? [wood, hay, and stubble].

2 Timothy 4:3 (New American Standard Bible)​

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires." ​

​

The Spirit goes contrary to our flesh. And, the flesh goes contrary to the Spirit.

So? If we truly desire to know Christ?

We must deny self - take up our cross - and ENDURE sound doctrine. Its a process of growth to maturity in Christ!


Sound doctrine? Truth which will grind our self righteous natural ways of seeing things into the dust. Humiliation leads to humility when its the Truth that does the humiliating.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires." ​

​

​

​

​

Better a man never enter the kingdom than to enter it and be cast out.

 

[Ben johnson]

The author did not say they had salvation itself. He is saying that these Jews he was targeting had undeniably heard, and UNDERSTOOD fully, the issue of salvation. He said they had a "full knowledge"(epignosis) about salvation. But, not salvation! He does not say they were saved.

This is "Five-Way #1" --- subjects were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place". But that denies the context. First, he says "if WE continue sinning" --- author's including himself. Second, the consequence of the warning is clearly asserted in verse 29 --- a man who was sanctified by the Blood of the Covenant --- there is no way that refers to a "never-really-saved man". Loss of salvation is undeniable in the passage, Gene.

Now if these ones deliberately kept on sinning after having a full knowledge of the truth? What does that mean?

It means lack of repentance. For instance --- consider the man that goes to God, and says: "Forgive me for the man I killed yesterday, and for the one I'm gonna kill tomorrow". God will not forgive him.

It means that they INSIST upon animal sacrifices for their sins. They sin by knowingly rejecting the knowledge about the sacrifice of Christ. And, they kept on sinning. For there were no more sacrifices for sin.

It connects to Heb6:4-6; by continuing to sin, denigrates Jesus' sacrifice. It would be as if Jesus had to die over and over again. So it is impossible to restore them to repentance, WHILE they disregard Jesus and His graceful sacrifice.

What are they to expect? The Lake of Fire. For they refused to believe in the saving work of Christ, even after having full knowledge (epignosis) of God's plan for salvation by means of the Cross.

Look at 2Pet1:1-4; "epignosis" conveys "salvational knowledge". And one chapter later, it also conveys salvational knowledge. But of the three groups (the false teachers, the false prophets, and the truly escaped), the first two entice the third back into defilements. (vs18) "ANd if after having ESCAPED the defilements of the world through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and overcome, the last state is worse than before they were saved. Better to have never KNOWN (epiginosko) they way of righteousness than HAVING KNOWN to turn away from the holy commandment." Verse 20-22

Here "epignosis" clearly conveys "saved", and context clearly asserts "loss".

 

[Ormly]

Ben Johnson wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Cannot this be very easily construed to mean faithlessness? How about faithful but presumptive?

There are several perspectives, that are coincident; and there are some that are coincident the other way

One who believes, receives Jesus, walks in Him and in repentance; invites the Holy Spirit, strives for righteousness (by HIS power).

What do you mean “receive Jesus”? Are we doing Him a favor? And “invite the Holy Spirit”? Never heard of such a thing to be a true statement but rather religious jargon..

One who walks in sin, does not believe, does not abide with Jesus, has not faith.

Oh? Are you sure that is not something relative to one's understanding and it is the understanding that needs rectifying?

[quote]
Peter is clear in 2:1:5-10; often mistranslated "add to your faith" (as if saving-faith can be COMPLIMENTED with attributes that are not ESSENTIAL), it really reads "supply in your faith" --- the attributes are not optional. He lists things like
Godliness
Moral excellence
Kindness
Brotherly Love
Self-Control[/quote]

I see the attributes as not being optional IF the knowledge of Jesus Christ is made manifest in a believer. Otherwise I see them as being ignored. Therein is the problem: Most Christians are lacking in their understanding of what this requires of them. “How shall we escape if we neglect finding out”.

Then Peter says, "He who LACKS these things is blind/short-sighted, has FORGOTTEN former purification from sin."

Who then is responsible for rectifying the situation? “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall”

Formerly-purified, can only be saved.

Lacking godly qualities and forgotten former purification, can only be unsaved.

No, neglectful after understanding and being born again; not pursuing further and striving to enter into the kingdom of God..

Then follows a warning to us: "THEREFORE (against that man who FORGOT his former purification from sins), we must be all the more diligent to make sure of our calling and election; as long as these attributes are YOURS, you are usefull ...will not become wretched ("ptaio", stumble/become-wretched).[/b] In THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided."

You just quoted the qualification of the believer, “as long as these attributes are yours”. Would God take them away if He gave them? Of course not. However, it is not something He gives. Can they be learned and then neglected into oblivion by the believer? Yes.

I put parentheses around "abundantly", because it's rhetorical; there is no SPARSE entrance to Heaven (for the impure) --- it's either ABUNDANT, or not at ALL.

However, that is not so for those striving to enter the kingdom of God because "the violent take it by force".

So we have some agreement but some disagreement.

 

[Ben johnson]

I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life." 1Jn5:11-13

ETERNAL not conditional.

There are plenty of "conditional salvation" verses.

"We are reconciled to Him, IF we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the Hope of the Gospel". Col1:21-23



"We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

(Take care not to be hardened by deceitful sin, to falling away from the living God)...

We are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:6-14



"THerefore let's be diligent TO enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their unbelief and disobedience." Heb4:11

Have you ever searched on "blamelessness"? It's our choice, not God's; we just read Col1:21-23 --- it's there, our choice. It's our choice in 2Pet3:14. It's our choice in Jude24, when we include verses 20-21 (built YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love). It's our choice in Philip2:25.

but that you may receive a full reward.

If Salvation is the reward what is a semi full reward... purgatory?

It's similar to 2Pet1:10; there, Peter says "diligence is required, that the gates of Heaven BE abunantly provided" (another conditional verse!).

There is no "less-abundant/sparse" entrance for the unrighteous; it's either "ABUNDANT", or not-at-all.

So in 2Jn when he says "full reward", that means "have Jesus"; and "NOT", means "not-have-Jesus".

It's either "full-reward-of-INHERITANCE" (eternal life), or not at all.

 

[Ben johnson]

I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life." 1Jn5:11-13

ETERNAL not conditional.

There are plenty of "conditional salvation" verses.

"We are reconciled to Him, IF we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the Hope of the Gospel". Col1:21-23



"We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

(Take care not to be hardened by deceitful sin, to falling away from the living God)...

We are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:6-14



"THerefore let's be diligent TO enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their unbelief and disobedience." Heb4:11

Have you ever searched on "blamelessness"? It's our choice, not God's; we just read Col1:21-23 --- it's there, our choice. It's our choice in 2Pet3:14. It's our choice in Jude24, when we include verses 20-21 (built YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love). It's our choice in Philip2:25.

but that you may receive a full reward.

If Salvation is the reward what is a semi full reward... purgatory?

It's similar to 2Pet1:10; there, Peter says "diligence is required, that the gates of Heaven BE abunantly provided" (another conditional verse!).

There is no "less-abundant/sparse" entrance for the unrighteous; it's either "ABUNDANT", or not-at-all.

So in 2Jn when he says "full reward", that means "have Jesus"; and "NOT", means "not-have-Jesus".

It's either "full-reward-of-INHERITANCE" (eternal life), or not at all..

 

[beloved57]

There are plenty of "conditional salvation" verses.

Not if you understand scripture..

salvation is by grace alone, and faith is part of salvation..

 

[Ormly]

Not if you understand scripture..

salvation is by grace alone, and faith is part of salvation..

What part do you think he doesn't?

 

[GenemZ]

What part do you think he doesn't?

I am not sure if its a matter of "doesn't."

It may be a matter of "can't."


And, it seems to be the same part that you can't, as well.


Why don't we just drop this? Think we all have said enough.

At this point... We have each made our positions clear.

But, we will never convince the other. For, we are not here to convince the other. We are here only (on this issue) to reveal what God has revealed our hearts to be towards Him.

Matthew 16:17 (New International Version)
​

"Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."
​

Its not a matter of convincing another. Its a matter of exposing before ourselves in what way we have been convinced.






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[Rightglory]

Genez,

I did not say there was such a thing. You do not read what is being said. There is a big difference between what you just said, and what I actually said.
I said believers who WERE unfaithful before they died? Will be resurrected, and will be shown to have a loss of rewards because of their lack of faithfulness while alive on the earth.

I know exactly what you said and you have repeated it here. And the answer is still, there is no such thing as an unfaithful resurrected believer. At the resurrection there will be two groups of people, believers and unbelievers. That is it. There will be no unfaithful believers. They are no longer believers and will fall into the camp of the unbelievers.

Its quite simple, sir.

Yes, I know, but you seem not to understand the terminology. A believer cannot be an unbeliever. An unfaithful believer is an unbeliever. When someone becomes unfaithful they are not longer faithful. We are saved through our faith, not our unfaithfulness.

I will repeat myself, because you have not been able to grasp it the other times I showed you this same passage. Hopefully, this time it will finally sink in.

Oh, I grasped it a long time ago. It is you that has not grasped that the text does not even pertain to the topic at hand. It is a text that you are prooftexting to hopefully support an errant supposition. But it does not apply to living believers. The only people who will have this refining are believers who have already died. If one was unfaithful in this life, they will never reach that point. They are unbelievers and will be condemned. It is stated over and over especially in the NT.

So? You are now telling us that a believer can lose all his rewards? Was because he was faithful?

A believer will have Christ therefore will get whatever rewards might be available. But those that became unfaithful do not have Christ. If one does not have Christ just how do you get any rewards.

Make up your mind, please. Does the Word tell the Truth? Or, does the tradition you have received, counter it?

My mind is made up, has been for quite some time. The Tradition I have believed is the Gospel once given. The Gospel that has been preserved by the Holy Spirit since it was given and received by the Apostles. It is amazing that no man has been able to change that understanding. You can trace it all the way from the beginning. Your view has not even been a false alternative view until your presentation, as far as I know. It is hardly the gospel once given if it has no authentic Christian historical witness.

We are already saved. While we are saved? We are to run the race as to receive the prize.

the above quote is from your response to Ben. We are not saved in this life. There is nothing final about it. We do possess salvation in this life, but the journey is all about reaching the end faithfully. To obtain the prize, to obtain the inheritance. But we will ONLY receive it IF we remain faithful to Christ. I Pet 1:3-5
Your using the promises of God and applying them to man. We are in a mutual, covanental relationship that has obligations for both parties. God has given us his promises, but you have yet to show forth any of the same kind of promises from man or yourself that you can do the same as Christ. The problem is not God leaving man, but man leaving God. If you doubt this can happen maybe you should reread the story of Adam.
The whole purpose of Christ's work on the Cross was to overcome the fall so that man could be placed back into a correct relationship with God as he was created to be. That man could freely choose to serve or not serve Christ. That one could freely choose to be in communion or leave that communion at any time. You have produced not a single text that overturns that Biblical concept "principle" that is a stream of thought from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

I did not say there was such a thing. You do not read what is being said. There is a big difference between what you just said, and what I actually said.
I said believers who WERE unfaithful before they died? Will be resurrected, and will be shown to have a loss of rewards because of their lack of faithfulness while alive on the earth.

I know exactly what you said and you have repeated it here. And the answer is still, there is no such thing as an unfaithful resurrected believer. At the resurrection there will be two groups of people, believers and unbelievers. That is it. There will be no unfaithful believers. They are no longer believers and will fall into the camp of the unbelievers.

Its quite simple, sir.

Yes, I know, but you seem not to understand the terminology. A believer cannot be an unbeliever. An unfaithful believer is an unbeliever. When someone becomes unfaithful they are not longer faithful. We are saved through our faith, not our unfaithfulness.

I will repeat myself, because you have not been able to grasp it the other times I showed you this same passage. Hopefully, this time it will finally sink in.

Oh, I grasped it a long time ago. It is you that has not grasp that the text does not even pertain to the topic at hand. It is a text that you are prooftexting to hopefully support an errant supposition. But it does not apply to living believers. The only people who will have this refining are believers who have already died. If one was unfaithful in this life, they will never reach that point. They are unbelievers and will be condemned. It is stated over and over especially in the NT.

So? You are now telling us that a believer can lose all his rewards? Was because he was faithful?

A believer will have Christ therefore will get whatever rewards might be available. But those that became unfaithful do not have Christ. If one does not have Christ just how do you get any rewards.

Make up your mind, please. Does the Word tell the Truth? Or, does the tradition you have received, counter it?

My mind is made up, has been for quite some time. The Tradition I have believed is the Gospel once given. The Gospel that has been preserved by the Holy Spirit since it was given and recieved by the Apostles. It is amazing that no man has been able to change that understanding. You can trace it all the way from the beginning. Your view has not even been a false alternative view until your presentation, as far as I know. It is hardly the gospel once given if it has no authentic Christian historical witness.

We are already saved. While we are saved? We are to run the race as to receive the prize.

the above quote is from your response to Ben. We are not saved in this life. There is nothing final about it. We do possess salvation in this life, but the journey is all about reaching sthe end faithfully. To obtain the prize, to obtain the inheritance. But we will ONLY receive it IF we remain faithful to Christ.
Your using the promises of God and applying them to man. We are in a mutual, covanental relationship that has obligations for both parties. God has given us his promises, but you have yet to show forth any of the same kind of promises from man or yourself that you can do the same as Christ. The problem is not God leaving man, but man leaving God. If you doubt this can happen maybe you should reread the story of Adam.
The whole purpose of Christ's work on the Cross was to overcome the fall so that man could be placed back into a correct relationship with God as he was created to be. That man could freely choose to serve or not serve Christ. That one could freely choose to be in communion or leave that communion at any time. You have produced not a single text that overturns that Biblical concept "principle" that is a stream of thought from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[GenemZ]

Oh, I grasped it a long time ago. It is you that has not grasp that the text does not even pertain to the topic at hand. It is a text that you are prooftexting to hopefully support an errant supposition. But it does not apply to living believers. The only people who will have this refining are believers who have already died.

What you have not grasped. Is that you have not grasped it.

Here is why I say that.

If one was unfaithful in this life, they will never reach that point. They are unbelievers and will be condemned. It is stated over and over especially in the NT.

Yet? It plainly tells us?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
​

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."



​

Why does it have to tell us he will be saved?

Why even say it?

Obviously, you fail to comprehend that they way this believer ends up looking like will not be very favorable. If he was faithful while alive on earth? WHY LOSE REWARDS?

How long can you deny this?
(as in... how long can you hold your breath?)




In patience by grace, GeneZ




.
​

 

[Ormly]

I am not sure if its a matter of "doesn't."

It may be a matter of "can't."


And, it seems to be the same part that you can't, as well.


Why don't we just drop this? Think we all have said enough.

At this point... We have each made our positions clear.

But, we will never convince the other. For, we are not here to convince the other. We are here only (on this issue) to reveal what God has revealed our hearts to be towards Him.
.

What we are given to understand seems to be the hangup. There are reasons why we don't accept other's postion, for that matter even the Bible's, on these matters, always reasons, most quite subjective. So never atutomatically assume one doesn't understand but rather, won't.

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

Why does it have to tell us he will be saved?

Because it applies ONLY to overcome believers. It has absolutely nothing to do with those who departed the faith in this life. We cannot enter heaven impure and that is why believers will be purfied. There will be no unfaithful believers in heaven. They are consigned to hell.
Keep the text on topic. You are prooftexting using a text that is not even referencing unfaithful belivers or those who have departed, those that fell away, became apostatized.

Obviously, you fail to comprehend that they way this believer ends up looking like will not be very favorable. If he was faithful while alive on earth? WHY LOSE REWARDS?

It has nothing to do with rewards. Every single believer recieves a life IN Christ in eternity. To enter we need to be purified. That is all that verse is stating. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being unfaithful, it applies ONLY to the faithful.
However, the topic at hand are those who are believers, have entered into Christ's Kingdom but at some point in their life departed from the Kingdom, from the Body of Christ, became apostasized, could not endure to the end. They have been consigned as unbelievers to hell. The Bible is repleat with statments of this kind. In fact, most of the NT is directly addressing this very possiblity for every believer. It is the one thing that every believer must be on guard against. You have totally, completely overlooked the whole intent of the Gospel to believers.

How long can you deny this?

Don't need to deny it. It has never existed in scripture and you have not shown that it has.

 

[Ben johnson]

Its a stretch to say its only about salvation. Always about rejection... Yes. Always about salvation? No.

Gene, he says "imperishable wreath"; how can you make that "not about salvation"?

You quoted one verse that was to reveal if one was saved, or not. Then you leaped to say that Adokimos only pertains to salvation. After all? When Paul was speaking of running the race? He was talking about being in a race. Not for salvation itself. About running the race and winning the prize that salvation opens us up for!

The race is for the imperishable wreath. It is no stretch to recognize that "imperishable wreath", is "eternal life".

...and that's consistent with "after I have preached to others, I might be disqualified".

What was Paul preaching, Gene? REWARDS? Or salvation?

1 Corinthians 9:24 (New American Standard Bible)
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win."


We are already saved. While we are saved? We are to run the race as to receive the prize.

The unbeliever? He's not even in the race.

And if we're "disqualifed", we won't be in the race either.

Will we?

We will be disqualified and cast into outer darkness if our life produces wood, hay, and stubble! Outer darkness will be reserved for all those rejected to reign with Christ. They will be saved during that 1000 years. But, it will be a thousand years of regret.

There are only two resurrections; the righteous, "protos anastasis" (first resurrection). Against these the second death has no power; but they shall reign with Christ a thousand years. The SECOND resurrection, is for the unrighteous; and it's to judgment.

Matthew 8:11-12 (New American Standard Bible)
"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

They were sons of the kingdom, until they got cast out. Look at "sons of the kingdom" in Matt13:38; and look at those who are "cast into the furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Do you think there are two places (one for "saved", another for "unsaved") where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Sons-of-kingdom-cast-out, really means cast out; and it's referring to rejection of Abraham's descendants.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

The self righteous believer will not lose his salvation from the Lake of Fire. He will lose his rewards. No PRIZE!

So you perceive the "fire" of 1Cor3, is the "lake of fire" from Rev20? It's not. That is Hell; 1Cor3 aligns with 1Pet1, where fire of trials refines us like gold (teaches us to build works that withstand the fire --- "saved so as through fire").

Jesus is now exposing self righteousness believers, and marking all such believers who refuse to repent and give it up. These ones will be cast into outer darkness (not the Lake of Fire) while those who were humble towards the Word of God, will be blessed to reign with the Lord as he rules the world.

In 1Jn5:10-13, he who believes has the Son and has eternal life; he who does not believe has not eternal life.

But you are saying that "cast out into darkness", does not mean "perish". With respect, doesn't this sound like what satan told Eve? "You will not die"...

Brings up 2Cor11:3; "I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve, your minds should also be led astray from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ."

Now? Why is it so important to you to be able to condemn those believers you do not approve of? If God chose to save them? And, refuses to send them to hell if they refuse to do his will? May I ask, what difference does that make to you? To any of us?

Believers are not condemned; unbelievers are. Forever.

Jesus wanted us to mind our own business even in regards to someone who was faithful. I think those who believe they can lose their salvation are too pre-occupied with the failings of others.

Nope; those who think salvation cannot be forfeit, are denying clear passages of Scripture.

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Those "GIVEN to Jesus", are they who "belong to God". Believers. Jn17:6.

How can they leave the one who will never leave them? If they are saved? He will never leave them. The Spirit may be grieved and quenched the whole time. But, he promised that he would NEVER leave the believer.

But what if they CEASE to believe? Look at 2Tim2:11-13; if we are faithless (disbelieve), we will not reign with Him. And He will deny us before God.

Amazing how God will never make it cut and dry. We MUST be filled with the Spirit or we will believe to what ever appeals to our natural way of thinking. And, we will think we are the one who is right = self righteousness. Yes, I can see myself as being self righteous.

Those who are saved, are filled with the Spirit; those who are not filled, don't know Jesus..

 

[GenemZ]

Gene, he says "imperishable wreath"; how can you make that "not about salvation"?
The race is for the imperishable wreath. It is no stretch to recognize that "imperishable wreath", is "eternal life".

He does not say what the imperishable wreath exactly is. Only you do. I believe its in reference to a crown... authority to know Christ, intimately. It will never perish if its granted.


As for imperishable? Other things are also called imperishable. After all, we will be living in Eternity!

Peter does tell us what one thing he calls "imperishable," is.

1 Peter 1:23 (New International Version)

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
​

Peter tells us right up front that our being born again is already imperishable. That, we can know.We can know what it is he is talking about.

Paul spoke of wreaths and crowns were rewarded to the winner of a race. Only if he wins!

In contrast. Peter was speaking of our new birth which we already possess.




.

 

[Ben johnson]

What do you mean “receive Jesus”? Are we doing Him a favor? And “invite the Holy Spirit”? Never heard of such a thing to be a true statement but rather religious jargon..

In John1, "begottenness" (the birth itself), is not of men nor of men's will, but all of God (verse13); but becoming begotten is by receiving and believing Jesus (verse 12). "for as many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

One who walks in sin, does not believe, does not abide with Jesus, has not faith.

Oh? Are you sure that is not something relative to one's understanding and it is the understanding that needs rectifying?

Only unbelief condemns someone to Hell; 1Jn5:10. But in passages like Rom2:6-8, and Rev20:13, our deeds are measured; when Jesus said "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good", it harmonizes with the concept that everything we do, consequents from our hearts. Those who belong to God, are "good trees" --- and cannot produce bad fruit. Those who produce bad fruit, do not belong to God --- they are "bad trees".

I see the attributes as not being optional IF the knowledge of Jesus Christ is made manifest in a believer. Otherwise I see them as being ignored.

The context conveys that he who lacks the qualities is impure. There is no way that an "impure person", will enter Heaven. (Eph5:5-6)

Therein is the problem: Most Christians are lacking in their understanding of what this requires of them. “How shall we escape if we neglect finding out”.

He who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion; he who does not mature, is not indwelt by Christ.

Who then is responsible for rectifying the situation? “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall”

We are, clearly. Perfectly mirrored in 1Tim4:16: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you DO you will save yourselves and those who hear you."

No, neglectful after understanding and being born again; not pursuing further and striving to enter into the kingdom of God..

Eph5:5-6 clearly states that no impure person has any inheritance in the kingdom of CHrist and God; let no one deceive us with empty words, it is on account of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

"Disobedience", equates to "unbelief" and sin; in Heb4:11 we are warned not to FALL (and fail to enter God's rest!) by imitating unbelief and disobedience.

You just quoted the qualification of the believer, “as long as these attributes are yours”. Would God take them away if He gave them? Of course not. However, it is not something He gives. Can they be learned and then neglected into oblivion by the believer? Yes.

Exactly. But these qualities consequent from belief. So we do not have these qualities TO be saved, we have them BECAUSE we're saved. Make sense?

However, that is not so for those striving to enter the kingdom of God because "the violent take it by force".

Scripture says that the way is narrow that leads to salvation, and few find it.

So we have some agreement but some disagreement.

No two people in the world agree on everything; I hope we all can come to agreement on the basics.

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
What do you mean “receive Jesus”? Are we doing Him a favor? And “invite the Holy Spirit”? Never heard of such a thing to be a true statement but rather religious jargon..

In John1, "begottenness" (the birth itself), is not of men nor of men's will, but all of God (verse13); but becoming begotten is by receiving and believing Jesus (verse 12).
I prefer this rendering of that passage:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12 (KJV)

It sez more. . . . . moving on.


Understood however, as it has been explained, is too cheap. There is more that needs to be understood.

for as many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

Those who "receive" Him were begotten in the Father before creation. So it really becomes a matter of revelation to that one, and that by the Holy Spirit, who chooses to receive that one back into the Family. Herein is the gift given and the choice made. . . . . . . . and then the warfare begins.