Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ormly]

I can not see the logic to your otherwise dogmatic appearing remark. What difference should it make if it were written before? Your name was written in before you were born. I have a strong inkling that the Greek would reveal something a bit different than we see in rather generic (when it comes to Greek tenses) English translations.

Here is why I say that...

Ephesians 1:4a (New International Version)​

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."​

​

Myhunch is... ​

According to what I have witnessed to when the Word of God had been exegeted from the Greek... That when it says we were written in the book of Life from the Foundation of the world? It might be saying (in the Greek tense) that our name was existing as being written when the foundation of the world came into being. For? How can we be chosen in Christ before the creation of the world? We had to be in the book of life when we were chosen.​

And, not all have been chosen in Christ. Therefore? If God is truly omnscient? Why chose to lose?

Now, if we could lose our salvation? Why save us to begin with if he knew we would lose it? He should only save those who would be saved.

And? Because no one would be saved until after they died being saved?

The Bible would keep on using phrases like...

"For those who believe in him, have been given the chance to be saved." ​

Or? ​

"Those who believe in me enter into the opportunity to be saved." ​

Yet, no such thing is ever indicated in the Word of God. It would have, if we could lose our salvation.

And, we would see written many warnings plainly worded about ending up in the lake of Fire if the believer did not "do this, or that."

The Bible would not beat around the bush about such a serious life and death matter!

Also, we must consider another reality...

The last person on earth able to perceive spiritual insight from Scriptural correlation, would be the carnal Christian! The vert same carnal Christians who are often times the target of the "lose your salvation" messages. They, being not spiritual, would be required to be spiritual, if Scriptural correlation (insight) would be required to see how they could lose their salvation. I call that dumb on God's part if that were the case!

No. The Bible would be up front about it.

"You keep on sinning? You will lose your salvation and be thrown into the Lake of Fire!" ​

That is what the carnal, unspiritual, mind needs to see written. No such passages exist in Scripture. And, they would be written if we could lose our salvation.



Enuf said...




.

In your mind, what does it mean to a castaway?

 

[beloved57]

Heb10:26: "If we continue sinning willfully after having received EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the aversaries."

This does not describe a true believer, but only one who had a head knowledge of the truth, then turned away from it.

The Jews of that time had experienced the ministry of the apostles, heard their gospel, seen their miracles.

heb 2:

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Some of the jews in hebrews were in danger of apostacizing because of heavy persecution for the truth, for if they did, it would prove their unregenercy and they were no more than stoney ground hearers and not true believers..

matt 13:


20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This person is merely being manifested to be the fraud he or she is, not one of the true sheep..

 

[GenemZ]

In your mind, what does it mean to a castaway?

If you would explain to me what a "castaway" means to you? Then, maybe I can answer you.




In Christ, GeneZ







.

 

[Ormly]

If you would explain to me what a "castaway" means to you? Then, maybe I can answer you.




In Christ, GeneZ
.

For me, the word speaks for itself. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

That speaks of punishment, alright. Not, Eternal damnation, though.

Punishment is damnation. The wages of sin is death. The ONLY death that has a consequence for man, any man is spiritual death. Your theology has everyone essentially saved. It makes no difference if a person in either IN Christ our outside of Christ.

"For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race."

This is precisely Paul substituting himself for the Jews, this is in Rom 9. How can you be cut-off from Christ and still be saved. You have turned scripture on its head and have completely humanized it to non-effect.

All believers who are punished will be found to have wood, hay, and stubble to show for their lives. Burned up! Destruction by fire!

this is not punishment but purification. All of our not so good works will be burned off. This is again your total misinterpretation of I Cor 3:15.

That passage does not say they will burn in the Lake of Fire. If it did? Then you would have made your case.

But the real point is that I Cor 3:15 has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is that believers can lose salvation. It happens all the time. I would say, possibly up to 70% of the NT is directly speaking to the fact that believers must always be on guard. They must make sure they still remain IN Christ. We even need to test and check that we are being faithful.

Again! It speaks of a loss of rewards! he will retain his name/title! His reward is connected with his title that will be blotted out if he fails to overcome. There is no mention of these people being thrown into the Lake of Fire. If it did? You would have made your case.

But it speaks of the overcomers. Those that have been faithful to the end, those that are faithful. Obviously they will not have had their names blotted out. But there will be millions over the centuries that have their names blotted out. And they will be cast into Hell, which is mentioned just a few verses later.
There is not loss of rewards here, but loss of Christ. You cannot be IN Christ if your name was blotted out. You will find nothing is scripture to support a view that man is not responsible for his decisions and his actions. The verse just above that also says everyone will give account of his works, what He has done in his life. No exceptions.

27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.

Again, a nice humanistic, good pychological answer which excuses just about every person on earth. How comfortable. God just puts words in the Bible that really don't have any meaning. Just filler words.

Did you read the last sentence in that passage? Verse 15? Not all will overcome.

All have overcome, that is the point of the whole context. This is speaking of belivers who have overcome. They did not fall, did not turn back in their earthly life.

I can not see the logic to your otherwise dogmatic appearing remark. What difference should it make if it were written before? Your name was written in before you were born. I have a strong inkling that the Greek would reveal something a bit different than we see in rather generic (when it comes to Greek tenses) English translations.

It is very logical and scriptural. A believers name is not written in before one believes. It is blotted out if a believer leaves the Body of Christ. If he is still alive and repents, it will be placed back into the Book of Life.
Your inkling of the Greek is incorrect. The Gospel was first proclaimed in Greek, the Bible was written in Greek, the Church used only the Greek langauage for the first 400 years and no where, no place, did anyone explain it as you are. It still has no historical witness other than by some few individuals as yourself. Hardly the Gospel once given and preserved by the Holy Spirit for all men for all time.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Maybe you should check the Greek on this verse as well. It does not mean God chose us to be believers, but God chose those IN Christ to be conformed to his image. One first needs to become a member of the elect, to be a believer, before either names are recorded or one is being saved IN Christ.
That is the point, Christ did not choose anyone. We upon faith,repentance enter into Christ. It is then that we are afforded all the special graces that come with being a believer. But we can also leave the fold at any time. There is not force on this earth that can hold you against your will. God created it thus, so YOU, and YOU alone will be held responsible for what you do. But that may not be to your liking as you seem to spin all around man's responsibility.

"For those who believe in him, have been given the chance to be saved."

It is always present tense and active. In other words ONLY those that believe. But one can stop believing.

Those who believe in me enter into the opportunity to be saved."

That is what it means to be saved through our faith. I Pet 1:3-5 makes it quite clear. God predestined that ALL the elect, ALL the believers would be conformed to Himself. But a person must continually believe. It never says believed, or believed in the past, it says those that believe. Everyone who believes, continually, from beginning to end, or those who have repented as did the prodigal son, will be saved. You have the same opportunity to choose Christ or reject Him as did Adam. Christ in His great love and mercy sent Christ to redeem mankind from the condemnation through Adam, JUST so you could choose rather than permit Adam to choose for you. It is all about choice.

And, we would see written many warnings plainly worded about ending up in the lake of Fire if the believer did not "do this, or that."

It does, but you have just ignored and changed the meaning to suit your own theory. The Bible is full of exhortations to not leave, not to lose faith. Losing faith is losing salvation since we are saved through our faith. No faith, no salvation.

The Bible would not beat around the bush about such a serious life and death matter!

It doesn't. It is you that has beaten it to death to the point of non-existance.

That is what the carnal, unspiritual, mind needs to see written. No such passages exist in Scripture. And, they would be written if we could lose our salvation.

I guess you have answered your own problem of why you cannot percieve spiritual matters.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,
Punishment is damnation. The wages of sin is death. The ONLY death that has a consequence for man, any man is spiritual death.

Ever hear of dead works?

Wood, hay, and stubble?

The consequences of carnality in Christianity are dead works.

Your theology has everyone essentially saved. It makes no difference if a person in either IN Christ our outside of Christ.

I never said all people are saved.


I said what Jesus accomplished on the Cross opened up the opportunity for salvation for all men.

All men have all been saved from the penalty of having been born a sinner.

All men had no choice in becoming a sinner. We are all born sinners! Jesus paid the penalty for being born a sinner. He was forsaken by God as he bore our sins.

"My God. My God.. why have you forsaken me?" ​

Because Jesus bore the penalty for our all men's sins? We will never be forsaken by God, simply because we are born fallen with a sin nature.

If Jesus did not take the penalty, we could not even be offered salvation. Forsaken, means God would have NOTHING to do with us. Jesus got that issue out of the way as he hung on the Cross! He was forsaken in our place. He was our substitute. he was forsaken so we would not have to be.

But! That does not save us in itself!

But.. now all men must choose concerning who they think Christ is. Its how men view Christ that will determine if they are saved or not. Not if they sin, or not.


Jesus paid for all sins. But, that does not mean all are saved from the lake of Fire. Men do not go to the Lake of Fire for their sins. Jesus paid for our sins! Men go to hell for their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ! Just like the angels who rejected the Lord.

Just because one's sins have been paid for? Does not mean all men are saved. It only made it possible for a Holy God not to forsake us.

I can not locate the passage at this time. The one that states that God did not count the sins of men before the time of the Cross, but saved the judgment for the Cross to be placed on Christ.

That reality is why God did not forsake Adam and Eve when they fell. For Jesus, in God's omniscience, was already slain from the foundation of the world.

Can you understand all that?

Jesus did not procure universal salvation for all men. He secured a level playing field on which all men might be saved. Otherwise, God would have forsaken us all if the penalty were not paid for on the Cross!


Grace and peace, GeneZ





.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Ever hear of dead works? Wood, hay, and stubble?
The consequences of carnality in Christianity are dead works.

possibly, but any believer has an imperfect journey to perfection, which he will not attain in this life. We do a lot of things that are not faith motivated. But that does not mean we are being unfaithful. When a faithful believer, an overcomer, enters heaven they will be purified. The text has nothing to do with those living on earth and still striving to be faithful to the end.

I never said all people are saved.

No, but your theology does. Faith is completely inconsequencial in your view. A believer can be sinning willingly, can even depart, but is still saved. One can be condemned to spiritual death, yet be saved In Christ. How can that be?

I said what Jesus accomplished on the Cross opened up the opportunity for salvation for all men.

That is true respective of soul salvation or our individual salvation. All men can come to know God/Christ. It has been that way from the beginning with Adam after Gen 3:15. Christ simply fulfilled a promise made by God to Adam. That Christ would be the Second Adam, reversing the fall of mankind, making the fall of no consequence.

All men have all been saved from the penalty of having been born a sinner.

First, we are not born sinners. We are sinners because we sin. We sin because of our dead natures, our mortality. Christ did not save you from the penalty of sin. He saved you from the condemnation of death, which was the punishment placed upon Adam and inherited by mankind for his ONE sin.
Christ also propitiated the sins of the world. He did not bear the penalty of those sins otherwise there would be none in Hell. If we do not seek forgiveness of our sins, our sins are retained by us and will condemn us.
By virture of Christ's work on the Cross heaven and hell became a possibility and became the consequence for man's free answer to the call of God for all men to repent.

All men had no choice in becoming a sinner. We are all born sinners! Jesus paid the penalty for being born a sinner. He was forsaken by God as he bore our sins.

Man had no choice in becoming a sinner. However we are not born sinners. Christ bore our sins to propitiate them, to atone for them. But He did not forgive us our sins on the Cross. That is left up to man to freely seek forgivness so that man can enter into His Kingdom. Sin and God still do not mix. If a believer desires the world, the flesh, the temptations of this world more than Christ, he can freely leave and God will not stop Him. If you doubt that, read the story of Adam again.

Because Jesus bore the penalty for our all men's sins?

We will never be forsaken by God, simply because we are born fallen with a sin nature. God will not forsake us because we are creatures created in His Image. He was not willing to permit Satan to have preeminance over man and His creation through the power of death.

If Jesus did not take the penalty, we could not even be offered salvation. Forsaken, means God would have NOTHING to do with us.

But the penalty was death. Man needed life. Without life, death reigns and any communion with God would end in death. Man was not created to die, but to be eternal and in communion with His Maker.

Jesus got that issue out of the way as he hung on the Cross! He was forsaken in our place. He was our substitute. he was forsaken so we would not have to be.

Correct, but it also applies to mankind.

But! That does not save us in itself

It saved us, but saved us from death. It made union and communion possible which is what man fell from, it is what man was created to do even before the fall.

But.. now all men must choose concerning who they think Christ is. Its how men view Christ that will determine if they are saved or not. Not if they sin, or not.

I think Satan knows who Christ is. How we view Him has something to do with our salvation individually, but it is more how we live IN Christ. How obedient we are to His will for us. It is all about sin. Sin is the ONLY thing that separates man from God. It is sin that we must guard against. It is sin from which we need to seek forgiveness.

Jesus paid for all sins. But, that does not mean all are saved from the lake of Fire. Men do not go to the Lake of Fire for their sins. Jesus paid for our sins! Men go to hell for their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ! Just like the angels who rejected the Lord.

NO, Jesus propitated our sins. He made it possible to forgive the sins of those who desired to be IN Him. One cannot be IN Christ and sin. If we do not do His will, we are sinning against that will. Unbelief is a sin. It is rejecting communion with Christ.

Just because one's sins have been paid for? Does not mean all men are saved. It only made it possible for a Holy God not to forsake us.

They have not been paid for, they have been propitiated, atoned for. If we seek forgiveness He is able to forgiven them because He atoned for them. He will forsake us if we sin and sin willingly without repentance. We cannot love God and hate our neighbor. The two do not mix. If one says he can, he is a liar.

I can not locate the passage at this time. The one that states that God did not count the sins of men before the time of the Cross, but saved the judgment for the Cross to be placed on Christ.

Rom 9:22. But your use of words is not correct. Christ did not bear the punishment for our sins. If so, then all unbeleivers would also be saved. Hell would not exist. Hell is the punishment for our sins. Sin is spiritual separation from God.

That reality is why God did not forsake Adam and Eve when they fell. For Jesus, in God's omniscience, was already slain from the foundation of the world.

Why would that be a reality when you also state that God knew the solution to the fall even before it happened. In fact the judgement of death upon Adam and all his progeny, was a merciful sentence. Who could restore life to mankind other than the creator and giver of life to begin with. That is why Christ became Incarnate, to assume our fallen, mortal natures so He could raise them to life. To an eternal consequence. It placed mankind back into the correct relationship (words like redeem, justify, reconcile, made righteous, made acceptable an be used here) of having life so God could call all men to repentance and every man could determine their eternal abode. No man is under Adam. No man is condemned through Adam. We will either be saved through our faith, or condemned for rejecting Christ or losing faith in Him.

Jesus did not procure universal salvation for all men. He secured a level playing field on which all men might be saved.

Actually He procured universal redemption. Which is also known as universal salvation from the fall, from death. But it did make a level playing field in that every single human being will be required to give an account of what they did with the call God makes to all men in the measure of the grace He gave for their response. No man is excluded.
He lost none to death. No human being will be destroyed by death.

Otherwise, God would have forsaken us all if the penalty were not paid for on the Cross!

But God has not forsaken a soul. Not even unbelievers. It is man that has forsaken God. It is man that has turned back the abundant LOVE that God showers on His entire universe but man particularly. He cannot even forsake man in hell. We are creatures and will always be creatures. Thus our existance depends solely on His Grace to maintain life in us. Those who will exist in Hell will also be sustained by His Sovereign will and LOVE. It is that man will not be able to return that love in hell. But that was their choice not God's choice. No man will have an excuse.

 

[GenemZ]

For me, the word speaks for itself. Wouldn't you agree?

If the Bible spoke of a "castaway" , may be it would speak for itself. I found it finally, when I checked the KJV.

1 Corinthians 9:26-29 (King James Version)​

"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: ​

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.​

​

That wording implies being thrown out.

Its misleading, for its archaic King James English.

In other translations they use a more current kind of wording. Something more accurate to our way of thinking.

(New American Standard Bible)​

"but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."​

(Young's Literal Translation)​

"but I chastise my body, and bring [it] into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved. "​

(New International Version)​

"No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."


​

​

That does not speak of being thrown out (into the Lake of Fire).

No "casting away."

It speaks of qualifying or not, for eternal rewards. For crowns, etc.

Will it be, wood , hay, and stubble?

OR?

Gold, silver, and precious stones?

Wood, hay, and stubble, will be disqualified! These will be dissaproved of!

No believer himself will be a thrown out by God! No matter what kind of legalistic loser he may be. No matter how carnal he may be.

How do we know this to be true???

John 6:37 (New International Version)​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."​

Hebrews 13:5 (New International Version)​

"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, ​

"Never will I leave you; ​

never will I forsake you."


​

​

Jesus can not lie. But, sad to say... some men will make him out to be, if they are not careful how they do not rightly divide the Word of God.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

 

[Ken]

Jesus said
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus always prays according to the will of the Father...

Jesus prays that all those who have been given to Him would not be lost, but that they may be with Him, where He is, eg heaven....

therefore none of those for whom Christ died can be lost, because God always answers Jesus' prayers...

blessings,
Ken

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

In other translations they use a more current kind of wording. Something more accurate to our way of thinking.

It may be more to your way of thinking, which is to soft coat it. But no matter how you slice it, it means outside, it means not part of what you once were. Specifically, in this context, it means one is not saved. You cannot be outside of Christ and still be saved. They are diametrically in opposition of each other.

 

[GenemZ]

out of sync.. relocated

 

[GenemZ]

Originally Posted by Rightglory
Genez,

It may be more to your way of thinking, which is to soft coat it. But no matter how you slice it, it means outside, it means not part of what you once were. Specifically, in this context, it means one is not saved. You cannot be outside of Christ and still be saved. They are diametrically in opposition of each other.

I included Young's literal translation. The word holds the meaning of being disqualified. Paul was using a Roman's game competition analogy. When running a race in Rome, and not winning the prize, one was not cast away. BUT!

Yet, many a believer will be cast into "outer darkness" while the Millennium goes on. They will not be granted authority to be a part of the Kingdom to reign with Christ.

Matthew 8:11-12 (New International Version)
"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
​

Outer darkness is not what the Lake of Fire is. The weeping and gnashing of teeth will be from being denied the deep desire not to be left out of the glories of reigning in the Kingdom with Christ. (Thank you - Professor Ashby)


So, Paul could have had that in mind. For the prize will be to reign with Christ. Not all believers will. Only those who overcome, will.

Revelation 2:26 (New International Version)
"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations."



Revelation 3:21 (New International Version)
"To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."
​

Those who do not overcome will not be sent to the Lake of Fire.

They will be cast out away from the Kingdom of the Millennium into an outer darkness until its over. They will await in outer darkness. They will have great anguish during this time of being denied - weeping and gnashing of teeth. For, these ones will be denied reigning with Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12 (New American Standard Bible)
"If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us."
​

These ones will have wood, hay, and stubble burned up at their evaluation.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (New International Version)
"If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
​

There will be a loss of eternal rewards because some lived by false doctrine as a way of life after they were saved. BUT! It says what? They will be saved from the Lake of Fire!

"He will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
​

In Christ our Lord, GeneZ





.

 

[pehkay]

after the millenium, all the defeated ones will be perfected and matured in the divine life to be part of the New Jerusalem in eternity. Of course with the overcoming believers ...

 

[Ormly]

Well? Your Exodus 32:32, reference?

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." ​

33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."​

​

That speaks of punishment, alright. Not, Eternal damnation, though.

And, Paul had a similar prayer, but in reverse. A prayer that God would not oblidge!

Romans 9:3 (New International Version)​

"For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race."​

​

Not all we read in the Bible is to be taken literally!
Paul could not become accursed in their place. It was Paul expressing his personal feelings. We witness to Paul's sentiments in what he wrote.


All believers who are punished will be found to have wood, hay, and stubble to show for their lives. Burned up! Destruction by fire!


Their punishment will very painful. They will be denied eternal rewards. That is punishment that will hurt deeply. For part of the rewards will involve special closenesses to Christ in Eternity.

That passage does not say they will burn in the Lake of Fire. If it did? Then you would have made your case.



Now? Rev 3:5, you referred to?

5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."​

​

Again! It speaks of a loss of rewards! he will retain his name/title! His reward is connected with his title that will be blotted out if he fails to overcome. There is no mention of these people being thrown into the Lake of Fire. If it did? You would have made your case.


And? Your last reference? Ps 69:27-28?

27 Charge them with crime upon crime; ​

do not let them share in your salvation. ​

28 May they be blotted out of the book of life ​

and not be listed with the righteous.​

​

David was doing the same type of thing Paul did. But, David was taking an opposite tact. Simply expressing his sentiments.

In Psalm 69, David was under painful discipline from God. He was being punished for his own sin. Men around David were kicking him when he was down. David was pouring out his hatred for these men.

But! Today, we the Church are now told to pray for those who curse us. To bless, not curse. David as an OT saint, did not have that command given him.

David was venting his rage towards thoughtless cruel people who took delight in his suffering while under the discipline from the hand of God.





Did you read the last sentence in that passage? Verse 15? Not all will overcome.

These who do not overcome, lose all rewards!

But! They were saved.

Read it again. Possibly, for the first time? For it appears you did not read it.

Verse 15!

"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

In Christ, GeneZ

But what happens to one whose name is not written; not found in the book of life?

 

[Ormly]

delete

 

[Ormly]

GENEZ

Ormly wrote:
If the Bible spoke of a "castaway" , may be it would speak for itself. I found it finally, when I checked the KJV.

1 Corinthians 9:26-29 (King James Version)​

"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: ​

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.​

That wording implies being thrown out.


Its misleading, for its archaic King James English.

In other translations they use a more current kind of wording. Something more accurate to our way of thinking.

(New American Standard Bible)​

"but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."​

(Young's Literal Translation)​

"but I chastise my body, and bring [it] into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved. "​

(New International Version)​

"No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."​

​

That does not speak of being thrown out (into the Lake of Fire).


No "casting away."

It speaks of qualifying or not, for eternal rewards. For crowns, etc.

Will it be, wood , hay, and stubble?

OR?

Gold, silver, and precious stones?

Wood, hay, and stubble, will be disqualified! These will be dissaproved of!

No believer himself will be a thrown out by God! No matter what kind of legalistic loser he may be. No matter how carnal he may be.

How do we know this to be true???

John 6:37 (New International Version)​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."​

Hebrews 13:5 (New International Version)​

"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, ​

"Never will I leave you; ​

never will I forsake you."​

​

Jesus can not lie. But, sad to say... some men will make him out to be, if they are not careful how they do not rightly divide the Word of God.



In Christ, GeneZ

Why say it is mis-leading instead of trying to realize that the reason for Jesus is much more than just getting people saved.

 

[Ormly]

I included Young's literal translation. The word holds the meaning of being disqualified. Paul was using a Roman's game competition analogy. When running a race in Rome, and not winning the prize, one was not cast away. BUT!

Yet, many a believer will be cast into "outer darkness" while the Millennium goes on. They will not be granted authority to be a part of the Kingdom to reign with Christ.

Matthew 8:11-12 (New International Version)​

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."​

​

Outer darkness is not what the Lake of Fire is. The weeping and gnashing of teeth will be from being denied the deep desire not to be left out of the glories of reigning in the Kingdom with Christ. (Thank you - Professor Ashby)


So, Paul could have had that in mind. For the prize will be to reign with Christ. Not all believers will. Only those who overcome, will.

Revelation 2:26 (New International Version)​

"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations." ​

Revelation 3:21 (New International Version)​

"To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."​

​

Those who do not overcome will not be sent to the Lake of Fire.

They will be cast out away from the Kingdom of the Millennium into an outer darkness until its over. They will await in outer darkness. They will have great anguish during this time of being denied - weeping and gnashing of teeth. For, these ones will be denied reigning with Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12 (New American Standard Bible)​

"If we endure, we will also reign with Him;​

If we deny Him, He also will deny us." ​

​

These ones will have wood, hay, and stubble burned up at their evaluation.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (New International Version)​

"​

If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.​

If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." ​

​

There will be a loss of eternal rewards because some lived by false doctrine as a way of life after they were saved. BUT! It says what? They will be saved from the Lake of Fire!

"He will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." ​

​

In Christ our Lord, GeneZ

What "false" doctrine could it be that man could embrace and still be saved?

 

[Ben johnson]

If the Bible spoke of a "castaway" , may be it would speak for itself. I found it finally, when I checked the KJV.

1 Corinthians 9:26-29 (King James Version)
"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
That wording implies being thrown out.

Its misleading, for its archaic King James English.

In other translations they use a more current kind of wording. Something more accurate to our way of thinking.

(New American Standard Bible)
"but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."


(Young's Literal Translation)
"but I chastise my body, and bring [it] into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved. "


(New International Version)
"No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

That does not speak of being thrown out (into the Lake of Fire).

No "casting away."

Yes, it does; the Greek uses "Adokimos". A term used with coins --- coins were gathered and examined to see if they still bore the image impressed upon them; if they didn't, they were "Adokimos-unapproved-disqualified-REJECTED". That it's undeniably salvational, we have only to look at 2Cor13:5: "Examine yourselves, TEST yourselves to see if you're in the faith; do you not realize this, that Christ is in you, unless you are ADOKIMOS-UNAPPROVED-FAILED-REJECTED?" Same word, and set opposed to "Christ-in-you".

It speaks of qualifying or not, for eternal rewards. For crowns, etc.

Exactly what is it that someone would DO, to disqualify for CROWNING, but still be SAVED?

Will it be, wood , hay, and stubble?

OR?

Gold, silver, and precious stones?

Wood, hay, and stubble, will be disqualified! These will be dissaproved of!

That passage connects to 1Pet1, where we will be "refined by trials like fire refines gold".

No believer himself will be a thrown out by God! No matter what kind of legalistic loser he may be. No matter how carnal he may be.

That's TRUE. No BELIEVER will be cast out. But John15 says "if we do not abide in Him (if we cease to believe), we will be cast out".

Rom11 says it is arrogant to think that we can NOT be "cut off".

John 6:37 (New International Version)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

And those WHO come to Jesus, first belong to (believe) God. John17:15 is clear.

BELIEVERS are given to Jesus; he who ceases to believe, ceases to be "given".

Hebrews 13:5 (New International Version)
"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."

And yet it is the love of money that has caused many to wander away from the faith! 1Tim6:10!!

Jesus can not lie. But, sad to say... some men will make him out to be, if they are not careful how they do not rightly divide the Word of God.

"Rightly-dividing", demonstrates that the "truly-saved", can leave. And that wouldn't be JESUS losing them, but THEY CHOSE to leave.

Just as Jesus said to the 12 Disciples, in Jn6:67-70...

 

[Ben johnson]

after the millenium, all the defeated ones will be perfected and matured in the divine life to be part of the New Jerusalem in eternity. Of course with the overcoming believers ...

Hi, "Pehkay". Rev20 says that those who did not reign with Jesus in the Millenium, who did not have a part in the "First Resurrection", will be raised in the SECOND resurrection; and they will not have their names written in the Book of Life, so they'll be cast into the Lake of Fire.

There is no escape from the Lake of Fire --- not now, not ever; no way, nohow.

 

[Ormly]

That's TRUE. No BELIEVER will be cast out. But John15 says "if we do not abide in Him (if we cease to believe), we will be cast out".

Cannot this be very easily construed to mean faithlessness? How about faithful but presumptive?