Can a believer commit the unforgivable sin?

[Bible Highlighter]

What you have done is to try and overwhelm Bible factual teachings with the volume of words.

The Bible is filled with many words, that does not mean it is invalid because it has many words within it. So your argument here is flawed.

I will say however that not one single Bible verse you posted say that we as humans can loose our salvation. Every single one of those verses given the proper context say something entirely different than what YOU want them to say.

Well, if the roles were reversed, I would attempt to deal with explaining a handful of these verses and not just one of them. Anyways, technically speaking, Eternal Security is taught in the Scriptures.

For the devil said to Eve in regards to her breaking God’s command,
“Yea, ye shall not surely die.” (Genesis 3:4).

Strange, how this same kind of thinking or belief (i.e. Eternal Security) is being taught today in the churches.

In addition, Eternal Security violates basic morality, as well. This is why you cannot make a parable or real world example out of Eternal Security. Yet, the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus’s parable with a continued parable of her own and Jesus commended her for faith by doing so.

What is basic morality? Basic morality is thinking and doing what is right. God cannot agree with Eternal Security because that would mean God would have to agree with a believer thinking that it is okay to sin and still be saved on some level. However, God cannot do that because He is holy, righteous, and good.

But just for YOUR sake...

Don’t defend your position for me alone. Do it for others (who will later come across this thread and read it later on).

I will speak to you on Hebrews 6:4-8 as it is one you listed and one that people of your thinking like to use to say we can loose our salvation.

What's astonishing to me is how easy this verse actually is to understand. When reading the Bible, we always have to remember that each book is written to a specific people for a specific reason to say a specific thing.

Hebrews was written to a Jewish audience. More specifically, it was written to a Christian Jewish audience. And even more specifically, it was written to Christian Jews who were being persecuted for their faith. Many of these Jews had lost their land, their jobs, or even their families. Their persecution was great. Land was very important to Jews, it was their inheritance from God.

So the loss of land was a real blow to these Jews. In the midst of their persecution a false theology began to work its way in. The thought came up that because these Jews would have been saved under the old law before Christ, that maybe they could abandon their faith in Christ and go back to the old law.

The thought was that since they were saved under the old law and that they were not persecuted that they could go back to the old sacrificial system and the old ways and still be saved. The author of Hebrews writes against this theology. He explains to these persecuted Christian Jews that the old law does not save any longer. Now that Christ has come, Salvation is found through him. This is why Hebrews was written. These are the people that it was written to.

Now, with just that simple understanding, look at again at 6:4-6 and you'll see that this verse says absolutely nothing to us about losing our Salvation and absolutely absolutely absolutely nothing about the idea that if we slip up and "fall away" from our faith that Christ will refuse to forgive us. Let's look closer:

Verse 6: ...................
"if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Here, it is important to realize that when the author says "fall away" he is meaning go back to the old way. These Jews have already accepted Christ. The forgiveness for their sins is found through Christ's work on the cross. If they fall away and turn back to the old law they cannot be brought back to repentance. There is no forgiveness of sins under the old law now that Christ has been crucified. Christ paid the ultimate price, and suggesting that they don't need Christ, and thinking that they can reject what Christ did and go back to the old way would be like crucifying him all over again. This is why Christ came to give us forgiveness. Forgiveness now comes through Christ, not the old law.

As we all can see, the idea of "WE can lose our salvation" IS NOT IN THE BIBLE" but instead what we see is a lack of diligent Bible study to learn the truth of God's Word.

I do not have the time or energy to go through every verse you posted, but I can assure you that every single one of them can be properly explained when the context is applied and none of them speak to losing ones salvation.

Most of everything you said was true on Hebrews 6:4-8 (Which is taken from BIble commentators), but you are drawing the wrong conclusion so as to defend Eternal Security. Hebrews 6:4-6 is proof that once a person accepts Christ, they can fall away (apostasize) by denying Jesus and repentance. This is why they cannot renew themselves back to repentance (be saved again) if they were to go back to the old sacrificial system and deny the sacrifice of Christ. Paul says, if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace.

One cannto fall from grace if they never had grace to begin with.
A man cannot fall from the top of a building unless he was on the top of the building.
In other words, you cannot depart from something you never had.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course the real issue in OSAS is the word "ONCE".

A lot of people down through the ages have "played church". They got involved for various personal reasons but were never saved. They were religious but lost. Then as time went by they went back to their old ways never to be seen again in the house of God.

Others seeing that take place came to the conclusion that they "lost" their salvation when the truth is they never had any salvation to begin with. Religion has never and will never save anyone.

But what if we commit a sin? What if we commit a lot of sins? What if we do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Again the key word in all of this is ONCE a person has
truly accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is actually very simple.

We ALL will commit more sins after we are saved. We ALL will commit a lot of sins after we are saved. Most of us will do something very wrong after we are saved. But that is why we are saved!!!

We are saved from the judgment to come because we are forgiven of our sins committed yesterday.....today and tomorrow. That is because we are ALL sinners!!! If we come to Christ ONCE, He is faithful to forgive us of our sins every single time we sin. We sin because we are sinners and that is our nature.

A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved according to Acts 16:31, John 6:37; John 14:6. That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.

You see, there is absolutely no Scriptures that tell us salvation by the Lord Jesus is "Temporary".

Once Saved Always Saved does not line up with the Scriptures. If it were true, then there would be no believers in Christ in whom Christ told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (or sin) within Matthew 7.

 

[Major1]

The Bible is filled with many words, that does not mean it is invalid because it has many words within it. So your argument here is flawed.



Well, if the roles were reversed, I would attempt to deal with explaining a handful of these verses and not just one of them. Anyways, technically speaking, Eternal Security is taught in the Scriptures.

For the devil said to Eve in regards to her breaking God’s command,
“Yea, ye shall not surely die.” (Genesis 3:4).

Strange, how this same kind of thinking or belief (i.e. Eternal Security) is being taught today in the churches.

In addition, Eternal Security violates basic morality, as well. This is why you cannot make a parable or real world example out of Eternal Security. Yet, the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus’s parable with a continued parable of her own and Jesus commended her for faith by doing so.

What is basic morality? Basic morality is thinking and doing what is right. God cannot agree with Eternal Security because that would mean God would have to agree with a believer thinking that it is okay to sin and still be saved on some level. However, God cannot do that because He is holy, righteous, and good.



Don’t defend your position for me alone. Do it for others (who will later come across this thread and read it later on).



Most of everything you said was true on Hebrews 6:4-8 (Which is taken from BIble commentators), but you are drawing the wrong conclusion so as to defend Eternal Security. Hebrews 6:4-6 is proof that once a person accepts Christ, they can fall away (apostasize) by denying Jesus and repentance. This is why they cannot renew themselves back to repentance (be saved again) if they were to go back to the old sacrificial system and deny the sacrifice of Christ. Paul says, if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace.

One cannto fall from grace if they never had grace to begin with.
A man cannot fall from the top of a building unless he was on the top of the building.
In other words, you cannot depart from something you never had.

Yes, the Bible is filled with words but those words are from God and they are to be read and learned and obeyed.

All of YOUR words were "opinions" and a great number of them can not be accepted as truth.

You said...............
"Anyways, technically speaking, Eternal Security is taught in the Scriptures."

Absolutely CORRECT and we are in agreement!

You said...................
For the devil said to Eve in regards to her breaking God’s command,
“Yea, ye shall not surely die.” (Genesis 3:4).

NOT TRUE. Eve added to the Word of God. God did not say "Neither shall ye touch it".
She added to God's command exaggerating the limitations God had set forth.

The point is when Eve ate the fruit, she died SPITITALLY. She lived another 960 or so years physically, but spiritually she died and needed a Saviour.

You said..........
"Strange, how this same kind of thinking or belief (i.e. Eternal Security) is being taught today in the churches."

Hopefully it is being taught because it is the Bible truth. Eternal security is the truth of God's Word.

You said.............
"Eternal Security violates basic morality."

That is YOUR opinion and I do not agree at all.

John 11:25 says.......
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies".

As Christians, our greatest hope and confidence lies in the fact that at the moment of salvation we have eternal life. The indwelling of all three members of the Trinity, received at the moment of salvation, guarantees us eternal security. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit indwell the believer’s body to guarantee that he cannot lose his salvation.

As the Lord said in the Gospel of Joh, we receive salvation by our decision to believe in the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as the Son of God.

John 6:29029 says........
"Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

You said..............
"Don’t defend your position for me alone. Do it for others (who will later come across this thread and read it later on)."


NO ONE is that important to me.


You said............
Hebrews 6:4-6 is proof that once a person accepts Christ, they can fall away (apostasize) by denying Jesus and repentance.

Incorrect! This response tells me that you completely rejected the exegesis I posted for you on Hebrews 6 and instead are relies on your own personal opinions.

You said..........
"One cannto fall from grace if they never had grace to begin with".

Honestly my friend, you are all over the place. You are arguing against OSAS and then you state exactly what I have said. One must be said in the 1st place and when that happens he is saved ETERNALLY. There is no such thing as TEMPORARY SALVATION!!!

Please take the time to consider EPH 2:8........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God".

In the original Greek, This verse starts out with two very important words concerning our subject of eternal sectrity. The first one is the dative singular noun, chariti, which is the word for grace. This is where we get our English equivalent, charity.

The second word is the genitive singular feminine noun, pisteous, which is translated, faith. The verse starts out, For by grace you have been saved through faith; this is written to the believer and looks back at the moment he believed in Christ. The subject is the believer, saved through non-meritorious faith in that which God’s grace provided. Grace is what God does for us, and not what we do for God; and what God does for us is permanent.

Next is what we call a periphrastic perfect tense, which is composed of two verbs: the perfect passive participle of sozo [saved] and the present active indicative of eimi [has been].

The periphrasis is carried over from the Attic Greek and indicates that the writer cannot get all the details into one verbal form. Therefore, he uses two verbal forms to provide a more forceful expression. Nothing is more forceful than the expression of eternal security for the believer as stated in this periphrastic perfect. The periphrasis is one of the most powerful and most forceful of all expressions in any language! In the Greek it is so strong and powerful that it has no loopholes or leaks of any kind. It indicates that we are tied into eternal life forever, simply by the few seconds it takes to believe in the salvation work of Christ on the cross.

 

[Major1]

Once Saved Always Saved does not line up with the Scriptures. If it were true, then there would be no believers in Christ in whom Christ told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (or sin) within Matthew 7.

I can not agree with your comment. In fact, it is just the opposite.

Your understanding of Matthew 7 needs to be addressed. YOUR opinion is that those were Christians who lost their salvation so Jesus says to them....."Depart from me, I NEVER KNEW YOU".

Obviously what you are ignoring is the words....."I NEVER KNEW YOU"!

As I have said before, not everyone professing Christ is genuinely saved. Even the outward acknowledgment of His lordship is in itself not enough to save the unbeliever apart from true repentance and faith.

Jesus was speaking to Religious lost people who were never saved to begin with hence His words........."I NEVER KNEW YOU'.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I can not agree with your comment. In fact, it is just the opposite.

Your understanding of Matthew 7 needs to be addressed. YOUR opinion is that those were Christians who lost their salvation so Jesus says to them....."Depart from me, I NEVER KNEW YOU".

Obviously what you are ignoring is the words....."I NEVER KNEW YOU"!

As I have said before, not everyone professing Christ is genuinely saved. Even the outward acknowledgment of His lordship is in itself not enough to save the unbeliever apart from true repentance and faith.

Jesus was speaking to Religious lost people who were never saved to begin with hence His words........."I NEVER KNEW YOU'.

Ezekiel 18:24 holds the key to understanding here. It says that if a righteous person turns away from their righteousness and does evil or sin, all their previous righteousness will not be remembered anymore. Seeing God associates with the righteous (See 1 John 3:10), it will be as if He never knew them because no previous righteousness is tied to their account because they decided to do evil or sin. Besides, skip down to verses 26-27 in Matthew 7. The point is not OSAS in these two verses but it is in doing what Jesus says.

For Jesus says in these verses that if anyone does not do what He says, they are likened unto being like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. This does not sound like a saved person of God to me.

If that is not enough for you, Jesus also says in Matthew 7 that not everyone who says unto Him, “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father (God). In 1 Thessalonians 4:3, we learn that God’s will (or the Father’s will) is our Sanctification or to be holy.

If that is still not enough for you, Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. Fruits are deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. So the idea that a believer can bring forth evil or bad fruit (sin) and still be save is ridiculous.

 

[Petros2015]

The periphrasis is one of the most powerful and most forceful of all expressions in any language! In the Greek it is so strong and powerful that it has no loopholes or leaks of any kind.

As someone who is not in the OSAS camp, I can't wait to hear this argued in Court.

 

[Petros2015]

If the unforgivable sin could be commited today could a believer commit it?

I don't think it's something that you could accidentally commit or even be worried about committing if you committed it. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. Like, if the Truth is staring you straight in the face and you are screaming #FAKENEWS!!! then maybe you have a problem, which is basically what the Pharisees in question were doing, saying that Christ was casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

And by that, I mean doing it deliberately, not from mental illness based thoughts popping into your head. Continue to reject them, but don't be worried. They aren't YOUR blasphemy. They are the blasphemy of the enemy.

So far as I can tell, if you want salvation, it is yours through Christ. And if you want it, you've been called to want it. I do believe that people can fall and do fall away, from the Parable of the Sower

Matthew 13:1-9

Many seeds are planted, but some are taken by the enemy, some scorched or choked by weeds. Christ in Revelations 2 and 3 gives many promises 'to those that overcome'. Which lets me know that there ARE things to overcome. There are promises to those that make it. Which lets me know that some don't. Paul describes it as a 'race to be run' he does not wish to be disqualified from.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

He is convinced that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, and I believe this is true. Christ is the good shepherd, He will see us through all these things:

Romans 8:31-39

...But if we wander away from the Shepherd, if we do not follow His commands, well then nothing Paul listed has separated us from from the Love of God - we will have done it ourselves.

And this happens sometimes with some of us, to one degree or another. So it's a good thing this particular Shepherd is also known for finding lost sheep.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10
Here James talks about sin . It’s equal(sin is sin and no sin bigger than the other) and equally covered by the blood of Christ.

 

[Major1]

Ezekiel 18:24 holds the key to understanding here. It says that if a righteous person turns away from their righteousness and does evil or sin, all their previous righteousness will not be remembered anymore. Seeing God associates with the righteous (See 1 John 3:10), it will be as if He never knew them because no previous righteousness is tied to their account because they decided to do evil or sin. Besides, skip down to verses 26-27 in Matthew 7. The point is not OSAS in these two verses but it is in doing what Jesus says.

For Jesus says in these verses that if anyone does not do what He says, they are likened unto being like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. This does not sound like a saved person of God to me.

If that is not enough for you, Jesus also says in Matthew 7 that not everyone who says unto Him, “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father (God). In 1 Thessalonians 4:3, we learn that God’s will (or the Father’s will) is our Sanctification or to be holy.

If that is still not enough for you, Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. Fruits are deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. So the idea that a believer can bring forth evil or bad fruit (sin) and still be save is ridiculous.

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Ezekiel 18:24 has been used for many, many years by those who want to insist that we can lose our salvation by falling from grace.
The fact however is that the passage in Exekiel is not saying that at all.

Rather, one who has merely an outward righteousness frequently departs back into a life of wickedness because he has no inner principle to guide as he was never saved and filled with the Holy Spirit the first time.

His temporal life may be cut short, but eternal life which he never had cannot be lost.

And just what is the will of the Father Jason??????

Mark 3:35.....
“Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” .

In the parable of the two sons, Jesus rebukes the chief priests and elders for failing to do the will of the Father; specifically, they “did not repent and believe” in Matthew 21:32.

At its most basic, the will of God is to repent of our sin and trust in Christ and be SAVED!. If we have not taken that first step, then we have not yet accepted God’s will. If we are NOT saved then how can we lose what we do not have????

Once we receive Christ by faith, we are made God’s children according to John 1:12, and He desires to lead us in His way as seen in Psalm 143:10. God is not trying to hide His will from us; He wants to reveal it.

In fact, He has already given us many, many directions in His Word. We are to “give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you” (1 Thessalonians 5:18). We are to do good works (1 Peter 2:15). And “it is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

 

[Major1]

Ezekiel 18:24 holds the key to understanding here. It says that if a righteous person turns away from their righteousness and does evil or sin, all their previous righteousness will not be remembered anymore. Seeing God associates with the righteous (See 1 John 3:10), it will be as if He never knew them because no previous righteousness is tied to their account because they decided to do evil or sin. Besides, skip down to verses 26-27 in Matthew 7. The point is not OSAS in these two verses but it is in doing what Jesus says.

For Jesus says in these verses that if anyone does not do what He says, they are likened unto being like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. This does not sound like a saved person of God to me.

If that is not enough for you, Jesus also says in Matthew 7 that not everyone who says unto Him, “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father (God). In 1 Thessalonians 4:3, we learn that God’s will (or the Father’s will) is our Sanctification or to be holy.

If that is still not enough for you, Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. Fruits are deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. So the idea that a believer can bring forth evil or bad fruit (sin) and still be save is ridiculous.

Jason. Please forgive me but again, you seem to say one thing and then turn around and contradict what you just said.

You said........
" Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. Fruits are deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Of course that is absolutely true and we really do not even need the Bible to tell us that.

Then you said............
"Then So the idea that a believer can bring forth evil or bad fruit (sin) and still be save is ridiculous"

So then the clearly, if a person is NOT doing good deeds he is NOT SAVED as Jesus just said and YOU quoted, "A good tree can not bring forth bad fruit".

You just answered your own question. The person beings forth BAD FRUITT IS NOT SAVED therefore he can not lose what h does not have!!!!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If prophecy is not taking place today, how do you account for the words given in Daniel and Revelation?

There is a difference between prophecy being fulfilled by real life events from the Word of God that is previously written vs. new prophecy (i.e. new messages or communications) taking place. Prophecy in this case would be in reference to new communications from God. I do not believe God is creating new messages for us to add to the Bible. The Bible is complete. One cannot add or take away from it without serous consequences.

According to the Bible there is a lot of prophecy yet to take place and the Scriptures say
that the next prophetic event is going to be the Rapture.

Again, events being fulfilled according to what the Word of God (that is complete) says is not the same as new prophetic messages from God.

As for the Rapture:
Yes, I believe there will be a Pre-Trib Rapture.
I believe one of the reasons God is going to do this is because it will give people who believe in Eternal Security a chance to change their belief. They will miss out on the Rapture and will be given another chance to re-think what they believe the Bible says.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

Jason your funny and your wrong.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Isaiah 55:8
It was finished at Calvary
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:30

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason. I do not know you. I feel like I should say to you that you are being rather naive and quite elitist in your comments.

One of the definitions for the word "naive" a is lack of experience. So based upon your use of this word, you are suggesting that I have a lack of experience on this topic. However, that is simply not true. This is not my first rodeo in discussing OSAS or Eternal Security. I have been discussing OSAS for many years now and I heard all the excuses and verses and different variations of it. So it is not a new thing for me. You probably do not realize this but people have actually killed themselves because they believe in Eternal Security. George Sodini is the poster child for Eternal Security and he thought he would be saved even after he killed a bunch of people and then killed himself (See this article here). Oh, and there are others who killed themselves because of Eternal Security, as well (See this article here, and here). Some in the Eternal Security camp say this is sad and can happen, but no believer loses their salvation if they commit suicide. This is to me is wrong and it teaches a license for immorality.

As for your use of the word "elitist" in reference to me:

The definition of "elitist" is a person who thinks he is superior to others. Well, I don't know about you, but I strive to obey God's commands that tell me to love the poor and treat them as if they were Christ and to be humble. In fact, I believe being humble is a salvation issue. Do you believe being humble is a salvation issue? James says, "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6). Paul says, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, ..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Do YOU really think that God would be different to YOU than to anyone else????

According to 1 John 3:10, someone who does not righteousness (or does not love his brother) is not of God. It's how we tell the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Are you in disagreement with what 1 John 3:10 says?

Are you aware that that is exactly forbidden in the Bible???????

Acts 10:34..............
"And Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons".

Webster's Bible Translation. .............
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, In truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Weymouth New Testament. Then Peter began to speak.

Then the answer to your question about addition is NO.........

This is in context to God being good.

Romans 2 says God will render to every man according to His deeds. This in context to God being no respecter of persons. For it is written,

5 "...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:5-11).

Deut. 4:2..........
"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you".

Not sure how this verse helps you. Do you not believe that a believer is saved despite if they may disobey on some level?

I am not trying to disrespect you but in my opinion from reading your own words it seems to me that you would benefit greatly from attending a Bible believing church and get involved in a Bible study operation and learn more about what you are trying to put forth.

In regards to having the knowledge of God's Word:

John says to certain believers,

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

And Paul says,

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

 

[Major1]

One of the definitions for the word "naive" a is lack of experience. So based upon your use of this word, you are suggesting that I have a lack of experience on this topic. However, that is simply not true. This is not my first rodeo in discussing OSAS or Eternal Security. I have been discussing OSAS for many years now and I heard all the excuses and verses and different variations of it. So it is not a new thing for me. You probably do not realize this but people have actually killed themselves because they believe in Eternal Security. George Sodini is the poster child for Eternal Security and he thought he would be saved even after he killed a bunch of people and then killed himself (See this article here). Oh, and there are others who killed themselves because of Eternal Security, as well (See this article here, and here). Some in the Eternal Security camp say this is sad and can happen, but no believer loses their salvation if they commit suicide. This is to me is wrong and it teaches a license for immorality.

As for your use of the word "elitist" in reference to me:

The definition of "elitist" is a person who thinks he is superior to others. Well, I don't know about you, but I strive to obey God's commands that tell me to love the poor and treat them as if they were Christ and to be humble. In fact, I believe being humble is a salvation issue. Do you believe being humble is a salvation issue? James says, "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6). Paul says, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, ..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).



According to 1 John 3:10, someone who does not righteousness (or does not love his brother) is not of God. It's how we tell the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Are you in disagreement with what 1 John 3:10 says?



This is in context to God being good.

Romans 2 says God will render to every man according to His deeds. This in context to God being no respecter of persons. For it is written,

5 "...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:5-11).



Not sure how this verse helps you. Do you not believe that a believer is saved despite if they may disobey on some level?



In regards to having the knowledge of God's Word:

John says to certain believers,

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

And Paul says,

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

John 6:37 says...........
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

Every one included in Romans 8:29 shall come unto Christ, and every one predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, will be called, will be justified, will be glorified; and not one single one of them will be cast out by Jesus Christ.

This wonderful eternal Saviour said to His disciples in John 10:28.......
“And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

This to me is conclusive proof that the believer in Christ is eternally secure.

1 Peter. 1:5...........
"The believer is kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time".

Philipians 1:6................
"The believer is confident of this very thing that He that hath begun a good work in him will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ".

Eph. 4:30.....................
"The believer knows that he is sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Heb. 6:18-20................
"he believer knows that he has a strong consolation, because he has fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before him, which hope is an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil, whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.”

So many people who deny the believer’s eternal security in Christ confuse the believer’s standing with the believer’s state. The very moment a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, with the heart believes unto righteousness he is completely, wholly and eternally justified from all things and he stands in the sight of God as though he had never committed a sin, accepted in the Beloved, complete in Christ, and God declares: “there is therefore, now no condemnation”.

God which cannot lie promised us eternal life before the world began. Eternal-life is received by the believer once for all and not on the installment plan. So we shall rest in his gracious promise and be confident of this very thing that he that begun. a good work in us will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ.

For more articles by Pastor J. C. O'Hair, visit the J. C. O'Hair Online Library.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

That guy you talked aboutin #193.Jesus Christ will look at him and say “ I never knew you”.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the Bible is filled with words but those words are from God and they are to be read and learned and obeyed.
All of YOUR words were "opinions" and a great number of them can not be accepted as truth.

The majority of what I posted was Scripture.
If you disagree with my interpretation on those many Scriptures, then feel free to explain them all using God's Word. However, so far, your explanations do not hold water to what the Scriptures plainly say, though, my friend.

You said...............
"Anyways, technically speaking, Eternal Security is taught in the Scriptures."

Absolutely CORRECT and we are in agreement!

You said...................
For the devil said to Eve in regards to her breaking God’s command,
“Yea, ye shall not surely die.” (Genesis 3:4).

NOT TRUE. Eve added to the Word of God. God did not say "Neither shall ye touch it".
She added to God's command exaggerating the limitations God had set forth.

The point is when Eve ate the fruit, she died SPITITALLY. She lived another 960 or so years physically, but spiritually she died and needed a Saviour.

You said..........
"Strange, how this same kind of thinking or belief (i.e. Eternal Security) is being taught today in the churches."

Hopefully it is being taught because it is the Bible truth. Eternal security is the truth of God's Word.

No. Eve did not die spiritually or fall away from God because she added to God's Word. The "Fall" happened when Adam disobeyed God's command by him eating of the forbidden tree. The devil pushed the lie that she and Adam could disobey God's command in eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not die. The devil was saying that she could sin and still be saved. This is the same lie that is being pushed today with Eternal Security because it makes for an allowance for sin on some level.

Side Note:

You may not be aware of this, but there are three different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. They also believe that the saint will never stop sinning in this life time, as well.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

You said.............
"Eternal Security violates basic morality."

That is YOUR opinion and I do not agree at all.

John 11:25 says.......
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies".

As Christians, our greatest hope and confidence lies in the fact that at the moment of salvation we have eternal life. The indwelling of all three members of the Trinity, received at the moment of salvation, guarantees us eternal security. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit indwell the believer’s body to guarantee that he cannot lose his salvation.

As the Lord said in the Gospel of Joh, we receive salvation by our decision to believe in the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as the Son of God.

John 6:29029 says........
"Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

How do you define morality?
How can God agree with a plan of salvation that makes an allowance for sin for a believer (Seeing God is holy)?

As for John 11:25:

If you were to skip back to John 10:27, it says that Christ's sheep FOLLOW Him.
So the type of believers Jesus is referring to here in John 11:25 are not sinful and rebellious sheep who do not follow Him.

As for John 6:29:

The "belief" (or faith) as a part of the "work of God" is accepting Jesus as one's Savior and believing in His death and resurrection that is then followed by good works and holiness. For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17); And the author of Hebrews says, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Furthermore, Jesus says, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." (John 6:53). What is Christ's flesh or meat? Jesus said back in John 4 the following words: "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34). This means we are to also do the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father (or the will of God)? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that the will of God is our sanctification or to be holy.

You said..............
"Don’t defend your position for me alone. Do it for others (who will later come across this thread and read it later on)."

NO ONE is that important to me.

Jesus says we are to love our neighbor and even our enemies.
Who is our neighbor? It is the guy lying on the side of road. See the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

Also, in Luke 10: Jesus admits that we are to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. For he tells the lawyer, this do and you shall live (See Luke 10:25-28).

If that is not enough, Jesus says point blank in Matthew 19:17 the following words,

"If you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

You said............
Hebrews 6:4-6 is proof that once a person accepts Christ, they can fall away (apostasize) by denying Jesus and repentance.

Incorrect! This response tells me that you completely rejected the exegesis I posted for you on Hebrews 6 and instead are relies on your own personal opinions.

I believe everything you said up until the point you said that it proves OSAS.
Again, stop and think for a moment. If a Jewish Christian can apostatize by going back to the Old Testament sacrifices and deny Jesus as the one and only sacrifice, then that proves "Conditional Salvation" and not "Eternal Security" or "Once Saved Always Saved."

You said..........
"One cannto fall from grace if they never had grace to begin with".

Honestly my friend, you are all over the place.

You are not the first Eternal Security Proponent to say this to me before. But if you must know, I am employing a thing called "cross references."

You are arguing against OSAS and then you state exactly what I have said.

No. I am only agreeing with the context of the commentary that you taken from other Bible commentators on for Hebrews 6:4-8. It does not mean I agree with your conclusion that it is talking about Eternal Security.

One must be said in the 1st place and when that happens he is saved ETERNALLY. There is no such thing as TEMPORARY SALVATION!!!

Yes there is a thing called "temporary salvation."
For there are those who are twice dead and plucked up by the roots.

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;" (Jude 1:12).

Only a believer can be twice dead and plucked up by the roots.
For they would be dead once before as a part of their old life, and they will be dead a second time when they went back to their sin after having once lived righteously. They are plucked up by the roots because they are not bearing fruit.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

We are also told by James that if a fellow brother were to err from the truth and we help to convert him back to the faith (by getting them to seek God's forgiveness by way of prayer), we should realize that we have helped to convert a sinner from the error of his way and we helped to save a soul from spiritual death.

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

Please take the time to consider EPH 2:8........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God".

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about "Initial Salvation."

Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ quickened us. This is a one time past event. Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. Why would Paul say this if they already had Christ dwelling in their hearts by faith? In other words, it sounds like Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation" at this point in his letter to the Ephesians. As for Titus 3:5, it says we are saved by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This is a one time event, as well. It's called being born again spiritually.

In the original Greek, This verse starts out with two very important words concerning our subject of eternal sectrity. The first one is the dative singular noun, chariti, which is the word for grace. This is where we get our English equivalent, charity.

The second word is the genitive singular feminine noun, pisteous, which is translated, faith. The verse starts out, For by grace you have been saved through faith; this is written to the believer and looks back at the moment he believed in Christ. The subject is the believer, saved through non-meritorious faith in that which God’s grace provided. Grace is what God does for us, and not what we do for God; and what God does for us is permanent.

Next is what we call a periphrastic perfect tense, which is composed of two verbs: the perfect passive participle of sozo [saved] and the present active indicative of eimi [has been].

The periphrasis is carried over from the Attic Greek and indicates that the writer cannot get all the details into one verbal form. Therefore, he uses two verbal forms to provide a more forceful expression. Nothing is more forceful than the expression of eternal security for the believer as stated in this periphrastic perfect. The periphrasis is one of the most powerful and most forceful of all expressions in any language! In the Greek it is so strong and powerful that it has no loopholes or leaks of any kind. It indicates that we are tied into eternal life forever, simply by the few seconds it takes to believe in the salvation work of Christ on the cross.

I am sorry to break this to you, but you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek to truly know what it says. The only way you can truly know this language is if you lived back in Bible times. Also, many think that the Biblical Greek conflicts with the English, too. However, such a tactic is wrong, though. God's Word in the English was translated from the Biblical Greek.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason. Please forgive me but again, you seem to say one thing and then turn around and contradict what you just said.

You said........
" Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. Fruits are deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Of course that is absolutely true and we really do not even need the Bible to tell us that.

Then you said............
"Then So the idea that a believer can bring forth evil or bad fruit (sin) and still be save is ridiculous"

So then the clearly, if a person is NOT doing good deeds he is NOT SAVED as Jesus just said and YOU quoted, "A good tree can not bring forth bad fruit".

You just answered your own question. The person beings forth BAD FRUITT IS NOT SAVED therefore he can not lose what h does not have!!!!

So you are saying that a believer cannot sin and lose their salvation?
Are you saying that a believer will aways live perfectly righteous after they accept Jesus? That they will only bring forth good fruit?

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

Let’s look at the blood of Christ . What does it cover ???

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Leviticus 17:11
The blood of Christ is what covers sin.
(1)The value of the “life” is the measure of the value of the blood. This gives the blood of Christ it’s inconceivable value. When it was shed the sinless God-man gave His life. “. It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could take away sin” Hebrews 10:4
It is not the blood in the veins of the sacrifice,but the blood upon the altar which is efficacious. The Scripture knows nothing of salvation by the imitation or influence of Christ’s life , but only by that life yielded up on the cross.
(2) The meaning of all sacrifice is here explained. Every offering was an execution of the sentence of the Law upon a substitute for the offender, and every such offering pointed forward to that substitution death of Christ which alone vindicate the righteousness of God in passing over the sins of those who offered the typical sacrifice
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:24-25
And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Exodus 29:36

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10
Here James talks about sin . It’s equal(sin is sin and no sin bigger than the other) and equally covered by the blood of Christ.

James point was not that we cannot keep the Law in James 2:10, but it was a warning of what would happen if we don't keep it. James was also not talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses in James 2:10, either (if that is what you believe, as well). Read the context. It is talking about not having respect of persons in regards to brethren. It is talking about the Royal Law of loving your neighbor (Which is what is constantly emphasized over and over within the New Testament).

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

James point was not that we cannot keep the Law in James 2:10, but it was a warning of what would happen if we don't keep it. James was also not talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses in James 2:10, either (if that is what you believe, as well). Read the context. It is talking about not having respect of persons in regards to brethren. It is talking about the Royal Law of loving your neighbor (Which is what is constantly emphasized over and over within the New Testament).

——————————
Let’s stack the verses then and you’ll see it wasn’t out of context because it continues.
With the addition of the verse listed.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:10-11
James was at the Chaulk board , so to speak.