Can a believer commit the unforgivable sin?

[Bible Highlighter]

Let’s look at the blood of Christ . What does it cover ???

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Leviticus 17:11
The blood of Christ is what covers sin.
(1)The value of the “life” is the measure of the value of the blood. This gives the blood of Christ it’s inconceivable value. When it was shed the sinless God-man gave His life. “. It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could take away sin” Hebrews 10:4
It is not the blood in the veins of the sacrifice,but the blood upon the altar which is efficacious. The Scripture knows nothing of salvation by the imitation or influence of Christ’s life , but only by that life yielded up on the cross.
(2) The meaning of all sacrifice is here explained. Every offering was an execution of the sentence of the Law upon a substitute for the offender, and every such offering pointed forward to that substitution death of Christ which alone vindicate the righteousness of God in passing over the sins of those who offered the typical sacrifice
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:24-25
And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Exodus 29:36

1 John 1:7 says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

So the Bible says IF.... we walk in the light (i.e. obey His holiness or obedience) as He (Christ) is in the light (holiness or obedience), the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:6-7 says a similar thing as 1 John 2:3-4.
Light is the same thing as keeping His commandments.

1 John 1:6-7 says,
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 2:3-4 says,
3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

1 John 1:6 is like 1 John 2:4.
Fellowship with him in 1 John 1:6 is likened unto saying, I know him in 1 John 2:4.
Walk in darkness in 1 John 1:6 is likened unto keepeth not his commandments in 1 John 2:4.
Lie and do not the truth in 1 John 1:6 is likened unto a liar and the truth is not in him in 1 John 2:4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

——————————
Let’s stack the verses then and you’ll see it wasn’t out of context because it continues.
With the addition of the verse listed.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:10-11
James was at the Chaulk board , so to speak.

Moral Laws are any laws that we instinctively know to do as a part of doing what is good and right (like not murdering, not coveting, not stealing, etc.).

Keeping God's Eternal Moral Laws (Which existed after the "Fall" before the Written Law) is also a part of the New Covenant (i.e. the New Testament). In fact, in the New Covenant, the Moral Law is emphasized even more so. The old way allowed for the hating of one's enemy by the fact that God commanded His people to destroy their enemies (at times). But the new way says to love your enemy and do good unto them that persecute you. Romans 13:8-10 essentially says that loving your neighbor is the fulfilling (or the same as keeping) the Moral Law like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc. So again, James 2:10 is talking about the New Law and not Old Law because it is the theme of emphasis through out the whole of the New Testament. In James 2:10, James mentions the Second Greatest Command given to us by Jesus (Which is to "Love your neighbor as yourself."). Jesus defined loving our neighbor as loving even the beat up man on the side of the road (See the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37). In other words, we are to love everyone. This is New Covenant and not Old Covenant.

James point is in loving the poor brother just as much as they would the rich brother. To give favor to the rich brethren and not love the poor brethren was a lack of love and a violation of the 2nd greatest commandment given to us by Jesus Himself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Ezekiel 18:24 has been used for many, many years by those who want to insist that we can lose our salvation by falling from grace. The fact however is that the passage in Exekiel is not saying that at all.

You are merely espousing an opinion here and you are not giving me the context and or explaining why your view is correct. In other words, what does your view of Ezekiel 18:24 even mean in light of the rest of the chapter? Do not all men die? What purpose would it serve to warn men to die early if they were to go to even a better place early as a result of their sin and evil?

Rather, one who has merely an outward righteousness frequently departs back into a life of wickedness because he has no inner principle to guide as he was never saved and filled with the Holy Spirit the first time.

So you believe in overcoming sin in this life?
This is extremely rare among Eternal Security proponents.

His temporal life may be cut short, but eternal life which he never had cannot be lost.

So God is going to reward them for doing evil?
He is going to bring them home early for them doing the wrong thing?
That makes no sense.
It would be a violation of basic morality or the goodness of God.

And just what is the will of the Father Jason??????

Mark 3:35.....
“Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” .

In the parable of the two sons, Jesus rebukes the chief priests and elders for failing to do the will of the Father; specifically, they “did not repent and believe” in Matthew 21:32.

At its most basic, the will of God is to repent of our sin and trust in Christ and be SAVED!. If we have not taken that first step, then we have not yet accepted God’s will. If we are NOT saved then how can we lose what we do not have????

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

In fact, in the parable of the two sons (you mentioned), we see that doing what God says is a part of having true repentance.

Once we receive Christ by faith, we are made God’s children according to John 1:12,

"...every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:29).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

and He desires to lead us in His way as seen in Psalm 143:10. God is not trying to hide His will from us; He wants to reveal it.

Yes, God wants us to obey Him. There are dire consequences in the afterlife for anyone who does not obey God. For Scripture says,

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

In fact, He has already given us many, many directions in His Word. We are to “give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you” (1 Thessalonians 5:18). We are to do good works (1 Peter 2:15). And “it is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Not sure how this helps support what you believe here. Eternal Security has no need for a person to bring forth good works and to live holy as part of being in God's Kingdom because one is saved no matter what they do.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

If a person does not then they have backsliden but haven’t lost salvation .
The Bible speaks of the sheep parable
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Matthew 18:12

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 6:37 says...........
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

So you think that the many disciples who followed Jesus for a time and walked no more with Him in John 6:66 were saved?

Matthew 16:24-25 says,
24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

Apparently, certain believers thought they did many wonderful works in Christ's name. Surely they thought they came to Christ. But Christ told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin).

Every one included in Romans 8:29 shall come unto Christ, and every one predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, will be called, will be justified, will be glorified; and not one single one of them will be cast out by Jesus Christ.

Being one of the elect is a choice on our part. For Paul says,

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" (Colossians 3:12).

You also have to read the conditional statements in Romans 8, as well.

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:6-8).

This wonderful eternal Saviour said to His disciples in John 10:28.......
“And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

This to me is conclusive proof that the believer in Christ is eternally secure.

John 10:27 says that the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand is the type of sheep that FOLLOWS Jesus. John 10:28 is not talking about lazy and sinful sheep.

1 Peter. 1:5...........
"The believer is kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time".

Yet, 1 Peter 3:12 says,
"For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."

Philipians 1:6................
"The believer is confident of this very thing that He that hath begun a good work in him will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ".

Yet, Philippians 3:17-19 says,

17 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"

Eph. 4:30.....................
"The believer knows that he is sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

Heb. 6:18-20................
"he believer knows that he has a strong consolation, because he has fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before him, which hope is an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil, whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.”

Yet, Hebrews 3:12-14 says,

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

So many people who deny the believer’s eternal security in Christ

Actually, this is not true. There are more people who today who believe in some form of Eternal Security than those who do. Eternal Security is the wide gate path and not the narrow way. Most churches teach Eternal Security these days. Finding a true bible believing church that teaches holiness as a requirement for salvation these days is rare and not common.

The very moment a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, with the heart believes unto righteousness he is completely, wholly and eternally justified from all things and he stands in the sight of God as though he had never committed a sin, accepted in the Beloved, complete in Christ, and God declares: “there is therefore, now no condemnation”.

Yet the "Condemnation" in John 3:19-21 teaches us that all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light unless their (evil) deeds are reproved or corrected by repentance.

God which cannot lie promised us eternal life before the world began. Eternal-life is received by the believer once for all and not on the installment plan. So we shall rest in his gracious promise and be confident of this very thing that he that begun. a good work in us will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ.

It doesn't work like that. God is good and He cannot agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and do evil as a part of His plan in saving them. God is good and holy and He would never agree to a believer's thinking they can sin and still be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If a person does not then they have backsliden but haven’t lost salvation .
The Bible speaks of the sheep parable
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Matthew 18:12

Yet, they still have to come back and FOLLOW Jesus, though. If they refuse to follow Jesus, then they are not his sheep. John 10:27 makes it clear that the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand are the type of sheep who FOLLOW Jesus. Jesus does not drag the sheep back against it's will forcing it upon a leash. The sheep FOLLOW Jesus.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son returned home to the father and was willing to repent towards him and to all of heaven, his father said that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" two times. This was speaking in spiritual terms of course. In fact, his father also said that his son was "lost, and is found." This means that he was spiritually lost and was then later spiritually found again. 2 Corinthians 4:3 and other verses talk about "lost" as being "spiritually lost."

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

“Astray” away from the correct path or direction.
If a person is Truly saved the word of God calls them . If they are not and they “ play church”. They cannot lose what they never had.
Either you are saved or you are not. Once a person is truly saved they are secure in the lord until redemption. ( see upper scriptures I’ve posted) .

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

The words are simple but your making them difficult . Hair splitting the Gospel . It’s the blood of the sacrifice that covers all sin (JESUS). The ones that you describe never knew Christ.
“NEVER”!
There are people who act the part but never were , and all post after this one will be reiterating that.

 

[Major1]

So you think that the many disciples who followed Jesus for a time and walked no more with Him in John 6:66 were saved?

Matthew 16:24-25 says,
24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

Apparently, certain believers thought they did many wonderful works in Christ's name. Surely they thought they came to Christ. But Christ told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin).



Being one of the elect is a choice on our part. For Paul says,

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" (Colossians 3:12).

You also have to read the conditional statements in Romans 8, as well.

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:6-8).



John 10:27 says that the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand is the type of sheep that FOLLOWS Jesus. John 10:28 is not talking about lazy and sinful sheep.



Yet, 1 Peter 3:12 says,
"For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."



Yet, Philippians 3:17-19 says,

17 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"



What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).



Yet, Hebrews 3:12-14 says,

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"



Actually, this is not true. There are more people who today who believe in some form of Eternal Security than those who do. Eternal Security is the wide gate path and not the narrow way. Most churches teach Eternal Security these days. Finding a true bible believing church that teaches holiness as a requirement for salvation these days is rare and not common.



Yet the "Condemnation" in John 3:19-21 teaches us that all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light unless their (evil) deeds are reproved or corrected by repentance.



It doesn't work like that. God is good and He cannot agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and do evil as a part of His plan in saving them. God is good and holy and He would never agree to a believer's thinking they can sin and still be saved.

Way, way too much information in your post for me to deal with my brother. If you would like to post ONE concern that you have or ONE question I would be more than happy to speak to it. But I can not deal with all the things you posted at one time.

 

[Major1]

You are merely espousing an opinion here and you are not giving me the context and or explaining why your view is correct. In other words, what does your view of Ezekiel 18:24 even mean in light of the rest of the chapter? Do not all men die? What purpose would it serve to warn men to die early if they were to go to even a better place early as a result of their sin and evil?



So you believe in overcoming sin in this life?
This is extremely rare among Eternal Security proponents.



So God is going to reward them for doing evil?
He is going to bring them home early for them doing the wrong thing?
That makes no sense.
It would be a violation of basic morality or the goodness of God.



Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

In fact, in the parable of the two sons (you mentioned), we see that doing what God says is a part of having true repentance.



"...every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:29).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).



Yes, God wants us to obey Him. There are dire consequences in the afterlife for anyone who does not obey God. For Scripture says,

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).



Not sure how this helps support what you believe here. Eternal Security has no need for a person to bring forth good works and to live holy as part of being in God's Kingdom because one is saved no matter what they do.

Jason. I will respond to your comment in the 1st paragraph concerning Ezekiel 18:24.
All I can tell you my friend is that I have been involved in this kind of theology for a long time.

I do not know what your background is or your denominational theology is, but IMO the best way to interpret the Bible is with the Bible! I can not begin to tell you how much erroneous teaching I have read surrounding Ezekiel 18:24. As an example, the Congregational Holiness Church, the Wesleyan Holiness Movement, and the Charismatic Movement all misinterpret Ezekiel 18:24 to teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth!

So for proper CONTEXT lets go to Ezekiel 33:12-13 which states .............
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

Did you read that? ... “If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness. The

New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 ...
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham............
“And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.”

The Apostle Paul plainly stated in Romans 4:5........
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

These Scriptures clearly eliminate “works” as a necessity to one's eternal salvation.

The False teaching which says that a believer can lose salvation is nothing less than a form of Lordship Salvation. Whereas the Lordship Salvation crowd teaches that a person must forsake their sins to be saved; the non-eternal insecurity crowd teaches that committing sin will cause a person to lose salvation.

BOTH of these are false teachings and are based upon self-righteousness.

 

[Major1]

So you are saying that a believer cannot sin and lose their salvation?
Are you saying that a believer will aways live perfectly righteous after they accept Jesus? That they will only bring forth good fruit?

EXACTLY the point my brother. I do not say that but the Bible says that.

We can not lose our salvation ONCE we truly come to and accept the finished work of the Lord Jesus as the payment for our sins.

Will we sin after we come to Christ.... YES!

Romans 7:17 was written by God's most prolific theologian and he admitted that.........
"Now then it is no more I that do it but SIN that dwelleth in me. For I know that in ME (MY FLESH) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not".

Will we live a perfectly righteous life after being saved...NO!

There is NO such thing as a PERFECT person.
There is no such thing as being 100% righteous.

May I say to you my friend that it is possible you have confused KNOWN HABITUAL sin with sin. The Bible says that saving faith is faith that is life changing. The Bible has some profound and revealing things about the relationship of the true believer to sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17, says .....
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

When a liar gets saved, he no longer has the need to lie.
When an adulterer gets saved he no longer has the need to commit adultery.
When the prostitute gets saved she no longer has the need to sell herself.

However, IF A PERSON CLAIMS to be saved who was a murderer, and keeps right on killing people then FRUITS of his actions tell us that he was not saved at all but simple said that he was. Living in KNOWN sin without any guilt to leave that sin is the key to knowing IF a person is saved or that he is only CLAIMING to be saved.

That is why Jesus said.........."DEPART from Me , I NEVER KNEW YOU"!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“Astray” away from the correct path or direction.
If a person is Truly saved the word of God calls them . If they are not and they “ play church”. They cannot lose what they never had.
Either you are saved or you are not. Once a person is truly saved they are secure in the lord until redemption. ( see upper scriptures I’ve posted) .

The key question that needs to be asked is: "Is a believer still saved if they stray away from the path?"
My guess is that if you believe in Once Saved Always Saved, then this would be a.... "yes."
However, the problem with this kind of thinking is that it is teaching a doctrine of immorality.
For how many times can we stray away?
Will not such thinking lead one to think they can sin in this life and also serve God if they can still be saved if they stray away? Therein lies the problem with your belief. It sounds like it turns God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us about.

 

[Major1]

The majority of what I posted was Scripture.
If you disagree with my interpretation on those many Scriptures, then feel free to explain them all using God's Word. However, so far, your explanations do not hold water to what the Scriptures plainly say, though, my friend.



No. Eve did not die spiritually or fall away from God because she added to God's Word. The "Fall" happened when Adam disobeyed God's command by him eating of the forbidden tree. The devil pushed the lie that she and Adam could disobey God's command in eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not die. The devil was saying that she could sin and still be saved. This is the same lie that is being pushed today with Eternal Security because it makes for an allowance for sin on some level.

Side Note:

You may not be aware of this, but there are three different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. They also believe that the saint will never stop sinning in this life time, as well.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).



How do you define morality?
How can God agree with a plan of salvation that makes an allowance for sin for a believer (Seeing God is holy)?

As for John 11:25:

If you were to skip back to John 10:27, it says that Christ's sheep FOLLOW Him.
So the type of believers Jesus is referring to here in John 11:25 are not sinful and rebellious sheep who do not follow Him.

As for John 6:29:

The "belief" (or faith) as a part of the "work of God" is accepting Jesus as one's Savior and believing in His death and resurrection that is then followed by good works and holiness. For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17); And the author of Hebrews says, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Furthermore, Jesus says, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." (John 6:53). What is Christ's flesh or meat? Jesus said back in John 4 the following words: "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34). This means we are to also do the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father (or the will of God)? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that the will of God is our sanctification or to be holy.



Jesus says we are to love our neighbor and even our enemies.
Who is our neighbor? It is the guy lying on the side of road. See the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

Also, in Luke 10: Jesus admits that we are to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. For he tells the lawyer, this do and you shall live (See Luke 10:25-28).

If that is not enough, Jesus says point blank in Matthew 19:17 the following words,

"If you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).


I believe everything you said up until the point you said that it proves OSAS.
Again, stop and think for a moment. If a Jewish Christian can apostatize by going back to the Old Testament sacrifices and deny Jesus as the one and only sacrifice, then that proves "Conditional Salvation" and not "Eternal Security" or "Once Saved Always Saved."



You are not the first Eternal Security Proponent to say this to me before. But if you must know, I am employing a thing called "cross references."



No. I am only agreeing with the context of the commentary that you taken from other Bible commentators on for Hebrews 6:4-8. It does not mean I agree with your conclusion that it is talking about Eternal Security.



Yes there is a thing called "temporary salvation."
For there are those who are twice dead and plucked up by the roots.

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;" (Jude 1:12).

Only a believer can be twice dead and plucked up by the roots.
For they would be dead once before as a part of their old life, and they will be dead a second time when they went back to their sin after having once lived righteously. They are plucked up by the roots because they are not bearing fruit.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

We are also told by James that if a fellow brother were to err from the truth and we help to convert him back to the faith (by getting them to seek God's forgiveness by way of prayer), we should realize that we have helped to convert a sinner from the error of his way and we helped to save a soul from spiritual death.

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).



Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about "Initial Salvation."

Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ quickened us. This is a one time past event. Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. Why would Paul say this if they already had Christ dwelling in their hearts by faith? In other words, it sounds like Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation" at this point in his letter to the Ephesians. As for Titus 3:5, it says we are saved by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This is a one time event, as well. It's called being born again spiritually.



I am sorry to break this to you, but you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek to truly know what it says. The only way you can truly know this language is if you lived back in Bible times. Also, many think that the Biblical Greek conflicts with the English, too. However, such a tactic is wrong, though. God's Word in the English was translated from the Biblical Greek.

Not so my friend. YOU are saying things I did not say in order to my YOUR theology more acceptable.

You said ..........
"No. Eve did not die spiritually or fall away from God because she added to God's Word."

I actually said..........
"The point is when Eve ATE THE FRUIT, she died SPITITALLY. She lived another 960 or so years physically, but spiritually she died and needed a Saviour."

So because you added to what I said, and in fact I DID NOT say that, then everything else that springs from that error is suspect! The fruit from a poisonous tree is just as bad as the tree.

When there is a flaw in the foundation of theology there will always be a leak in the roof.

Again, your 3 levels of OSAS are completely based on denominational teachings of the Pentecostal faith and they are NOT Biblical. I have NO idea where you came up with such Options unless it was from a blog site somewhere.

You said that.............
OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

That is completely false.
Enjoying life is not a sin by itself; but it is a sin if that's all you do and God has no place in your life. In Noah's time the people were eating, drinking and marrying; but not one of them heeded Noah's Gospel preaching, not one of them. Nobody took Noah seriously. Noah was a novelty to them, just as the Bible has become a novelty, take it or leave it, to so many people today.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on the matter of salvation ........
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Again, carefully read Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

This does not give the believer a license to sin, which is clearly evident in Romans 3:28,31..........
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law ... Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Just because we are saved by faith without works does not give us a license to sin.

Tom Brown is a Charismatic false prophet who pastors in El Paso, Texas. Here is a quote from one of his writings, which will allow you to see firsthand how such sinister ministers misinterpret Ezekiel 18:24 ...
"God was the first to ask whether or not people could lose their salvation. We find God asking this question in Ezekiel 18:24: "'But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sins and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?'" God is asking, "Will he live, if he departs from his righteous ways?" And what was the answer? "'None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will DIE.'"
SOURCE: (Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?)

In Lieu of Ezekiel 33:12-13, it is clear that Ezekiel's warnings were to the unsaved self-righteous; not believers... "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered..." Anyone who trusts "in his own righteousness" was never saved to begin with!!! Carefully notice that the Bible says a man's righteousness won't be remembered only if he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is why Romans 10:3 warns people about trying to establish their OWN righteousness.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. They also believe that the saint will never stop sinning in this life time, as well.

Again, there is no such thing as you just posted. This your own personal opinion.

My dear friend....committing a sin as YOU have listed...Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc, does NOT send a man to hell! It is the sin of UNBELIEF that dams a mans soul to hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

Simply not true.

That is not the way things are with God and salvation. You don’t simply “lose” your salvation, as if it was as easy as that. God has promised to keep us, assuring us that nothing can separate us from His love (Rom. 8:31–39) and that no one can pluck us out of His hand (John 10:28–29). He is the Author and the Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), and He who began a good work in us will see it through to completion (Phil. 1:6).

Jesus is our Savior; we do not save ourselves. And just as we didn’t get saved by accident, we can’t lose our salvation by accident.

Allow me to say to you that the teaching commonly known as “once saved, always saved” (OSAS) states that once you are truly saved, no matter how you live or what you do, even denying Jesus and turning your back on Him, you cannot lose your salvation. Now here is the key to understanding.......
Although your sin might shorten your life or lessen your future rewards, you will still be eternally saved.

 

[Major1]

The key question that needs to be asked is: "Is a believer still saved if they stray away from the path?"
My guess is that if you believe in Once Saved Always Saved, then this would be a.... "yes."
However, the problem with this kind of thinking is that it is teaching a doctrine of immorality.
For how many times can we stray away?
Will not such thinking lead one to think they can sin in this life and also serve God if they can still be saved if they stray away? Therein lies the problem with your belief. It sounds like it turns God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us about.

Jason, it matters not what I think or say. The only thing that matters is what God says.

A born-again believer may also walk away from the Lord Jesus Christ; but can NEVER lose his or her salvation. T

What about David???
He sinned horribly, over and over. In fact is there a sin he DID NOT commit???? But is there a Bible Scripture that says he lost his salvation because of what he did?

What About Solomon??? His sins were grievous, but is there any Scripture that hints that he lost his salvation???

What about Samson?
Did he not commit terrible sins, but is there any indication he lost his salvation?

What about Jonah?
Didn't he RUN AWAY from God? But again, is there any Scripture to suggest that he lost his salvation??

Salvation is the gift of God as recorded in the Bible in Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9.
Our part is simply to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as seen in Acts 16:31; 10:43.

Galatians 2:21 says..........
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Dr. Harry Ironside correctly understood repentance to mean…
"Repentance is the recognition of my sinnership — the owning before God that I am as vile as He has declared me to be in His holy Word."

 

[Major1]

James point was not that we cannot keep the Law in James 2:10, but it was a warning of what would happen if we don't keep it. James was also not talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses in James 2:10, either (if that is what you believe, as well). Read the context. It is talking about not having respect of persons in regards to brethren. It is talking about the Royal Law of loving your neighbor (Which is what is constantly emphasized over and over within the New Testament).

I can not agree with you.

James is teaching us that one portion of the law is as much binding as another, and if a man violates any one plain commandment, he sets at nought the authority of God. This is a simple principle which is everywhere recognised, and the apostle means no more by it than occurs every day.

A man who has stolen a horse is held to be a violator of the law, no matter in how many other respects he has kept it, and the law condemns him for it. He cannot plead his obedience to the law in other things as a reason why he should not be punished for this sin; but however upright he may have been in general, even though it may have been through a long life, the law holds him to be a transgressor, and condemns him. He is as really condemned, and as much thrown from the protection of law, as though he had violated every command. So of murder, arson, treason, or any other crime. The law judges a man for what he has done in this specific case, and he cannot plead in justification of it that he has been obedient in other things.

It follows, therefore, that if a man has been guilty of violating the law of God in any one instance, or is not perfectly holy, he cannot be justified and saved by it, though he should have obeyed it in every other respect, any more than a man who has been guilty of murder can be saved from the gallows because he has, in other respects, been a good citizen, a kind father, an honest neighbor, or has been compassionate to the poor and the needy. He cannot plead his act of truth in one case as an offset to the sin of falsehood in another; he cannot defend himself from the charge of dishonesty in one instance by the plea that he has been honest in another; he cannot urge the fact that he has done a good thing as a reason why he should not be punished for a bad one. He must answer for the specific charge against him, and none of these other things can be an offset against this one act of wrong.James 2:10 - For whoever keeps... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary

 

[Bible Highlighter]

EXACTLY the point my brother. I do not say that but the Bible says that.

Not true. Eternal Security Proponents say that a person can sin and still be saved. The Bible teaches no such thing. Yes, a believer can stumble into sin, but they need to repent (ask God's forgiveness) in order to be forgiven. They have to intentionally not desire to sin again, as well. For if they confess their sin with the thinking they will just do that same sin again at a future date, God is not going to forgive them because they are not really sorry enough to stop. The Bible warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4) (NIV).​

How exactly do you not see Eternal Security (or a sin and still be saved type belief) as turning God's grace into license for immorality?

We can not lose our salvation ONCE we truly come to and accept the finished work of the Lord Jesus as the payment for our sins.

Yet, no actual Bible verse or passage says these kinds of words, though. In fact, the Bible is full of warnings to the believer in regards to their salvation with the Lord.

Matthew 5:28-30 - If we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hellfire.
Matthew 6:15 - If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father.
Matthew 7:23 - Those believers who did many wonderful works to depart from Him because they were working iniquity (or sin).
Matthew 25:31-46 - If we do not help the poor in this life, we can be cast into everlasting fire.
Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.
Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (without which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13 above).

Will we sin after we come to Christ.... YES!

Not true.

Jesus says to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Paul says,

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

'Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 Pet. 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Pet. 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1 Pet. 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1 Pet. 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:" (1 Peter 4:1-4).

Romans 7:17 was written by God's most prolific theologian and he admitted that.........
"Now then it is no more I that do it but SIN that dwelleth in me. For I know that in ME (MY FLESH) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not".

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. You can check them out by clicking on the following spoiler button:

Spoiler

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

Will we live a perfectly righteous life after being saved...NO!

There is NO such thing as a PERFECT person.
There is no such thing as being 100% righteous.

Not true. The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5).

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

May I say to you my friend that it is possible you have confused KNOWN HABITUAL sin with sin. The Bible says that saving faith is faith that is life changing. The Bible has some profound and revealing things about the relationship of the true believer to sin.

I do not believe that walking uprightly is possible for the Eternal Security believer because they say will alway sin at some point in the future. In other words, I do not believe anyone who thinks they can sin and still be saved can overcome sin or live holy truly in this life. A person has to first believe the Scriptures in the Bible that talks about overcoming sin in order for them to overcome sin. It's a faith issue whereby God then moves in a believers life to help them overcome their sin after they believe.

2 Corinthians 5:17, says .....
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

This verse really does not fit in the Eternal Security belief or a sin and still be saved type doctrine. If one is saying they are a new creature and all things have become new, this conflicts with OSAS and sin and still be saved type beliefs that suggest that they will always sin (whereby things are still old and not new).

When a liar gets saved, he no longer has the need to lie.
When an adulterer gets saved he no longer has the need to commit adultery.
When the prostitute gets saved she no longer has the need to sell herself.

However, IF A PERSON CLAIMS to be saved who was a murderer, and keeps right on killing people then FRUITS of his actions tell us that he was not saved at all but simple said that he was. Living in KNOWN sin without any guilt to leave that sin is the key to knowing IF a person is saved or that he is only CLAIMING to be saved.

That is why Jesus said.........."DEPART from Me , I NEVER KNEW YOU"!

But you said before that a believer will always sin. I do not see how that statement is consistent with what you are saying here. It is contradictory. On top of that, if one says they are forever saved no matter what they do, then it will lead to a person to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. Yet, you are saying that if a believer does not stop sinning the above sins, they are not saved. I agree with that assessment but I am not sure you do. For no sin can separate a believer from God in the OSAS belief. But what about believers who went astray like the prodigal son? Were they saved while they were living in sin for a while? What makes them any different than the person who does not stop sinning in the beginning of their faith? Is justification of a little bit of evil or sin okay vs. a lot of sin? Surely not. For it only took one sin to separate man from God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The words are simple but your making them difficult . Hair splitting the Gospel . It’s the blood of the sacrifice that covers all sin (JESUS). The ones that you describe never knew Christ.
“NEVER”!
There are people who act the part but never were , and all post after this one will be reiterating that.

Describe what must happen for a person to be known by Christ. How does one know if they are just "acting the part" or are known?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, it matters not what I think or say. The only thing that matters is what God says.

No. That is what you think God's Word says but it is simply not true.

A born-again believer may also walk away from the Lord Jesus Christ; but can NEVER lose his or her salvation.

Then you are turning God's grace into a license for immorality.
For in order for God to save a person who strays into a time of them sinning, God would have to agree with their thinking that it is okay for them to sin with God saving them despite their evil.
For why do you think God does not save unbelievers? Is it just because they don't have a belief alone? Is that the real problem only? No, of course not. Yes, they should recognize God and Jesus as their Savior, but God wants us to live righteously and not in sin. Sin has always been the problem.

What about David???
He sinned horribly, over and over. In fact is there a sin he DID NOT commit???? But is there a Bible Scripture that says he lost his salvation because of what he did?

David did not sin over and over his whole life. His life was not defined or characterized by sin. Did David sin? Yes, but he was not regarded as an man who lived unrighteously his whole life. Oh, and yes. Scripture does say that David was not saved when he was in sin. If you were to read Psalms 51 it says,

9 "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."
(Psalms 51:9-12).

If God had forgiven David, then David would not be asking God to blot out his iniquities.
David asked for a clean heart and a right spirit within him.
David asked God not to cast away His presence and to take away His Holy Spirit from him.
David asked to restore the joy of his salvation back. In other words, he was asking for his salvation back. He wanted salvation.

What About Solomon??? His sins were grievous, but is there any Scripture that hints that he lost his salvation???

What about Samson?
Did he not commit terrible sins, but is there any indication he lost his salvation?

I believe Samson and Solomon are rare cases of a man of God being saved by the skin of his teeth. In the end, they both did what was righteous (that proved their faith and heart was true with God). They are examples of God's mercy and grace. But they are not the norm in regards to looking at God's people. They are only a rare few. If all of God's people acted like they did, then you may have a good case to prove Eternal Security, but this is simply not so. For the 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God. Enoch was translated whereby he did not see death because he walked with God in a way that pleased the Lord.

Solomon and Samson are examples in the Bible of how NOT to live. They are not examples for us to point to so as to think we can live that way, too. Samson and Solomon were not looking at other believers who lived like they did thinking they can get away with sin. God knew their heart and knew that while they did live sinful lives, they turned at the last moment at the end and made things right with the Lord. This is not a support of a sin and still be saved type belief. It runs contrary to it because the the believer (who believes they can sin and still be saved) will just continue to live like an evil sinful version of Solomon or a Samson until they die. For the extreme OSAS believer will not admit in what they have done is wrong. For they believe all future sin is paid for and that nothing can remove them from Christ because they are sealed by the Spirit. For many OSAS believers: sin is only physical death and not spiritual death. Hence, why holiness is rarely ever stressed as being a requirement in being a true believer within many OSAS camps. It's all about how you are forever saved and do not worry about sin. God's got you. Do not work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Yet, Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

What about Jonah?
Didn't he RUN AWAY from God? But again, is there any Scripture to suggest that he lost his salvation??

Did Jonah receive a command from God saying that if he ran away he would die like Adam and Eve did? No. Anyways, one of the most important things we can gain from reading the book of Jonah is the point about repentance.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

When God had seen that the Ninevites had turned from their evil and wicked ways, that was when He decided not to bring wrath or judgment upon them. This is how Jesus defines true repentance for us.

Salvation is the gift of God as recorded in the Bible in Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9.

And like all free good gifts in life, they come with responsibilities. For if Bob received a car as a free gift, that does not mean Bob can hit pedestrians, run red lights, and or drive drunk. Bob will not have his car (which is a free gift) too long if he did such things.

Our part is simply to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as seen in Acts 16:31; 10:43.

But belief (faith) is described as more than just having a belief alone. James says I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Galatians 2:21 says..........
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses or the Old Law that is no more. For the variation of the word "circumcision" appears six times in Galatians 2. Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Circumcision is a command given to us under the Old Covenant and it is not a command given to us under the New Covenant (New Testament). So Paul was not talking about all law, but the Old Law. For keeping the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Which is a New Covenant Law) makes us free from the Law of sin and death (See Romans 8:2). 1 John 3:23 is a command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Are you not under this law or command in 1 John 3:23? So Paul is not talking about all law in Galatians 2:21.

Dr. Harry Ironside correctly understood repentance to mean…
"Repentance is the recognition of my sinnership — the owning before God that I am as vile as He has declared me to be in His holy Word."

At the heart, I believe repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness"
(Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind” (as many wrongfully teach).

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#4. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#5. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#6. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#7. Luke 10:13 says,

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#8. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#9. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.


Side Note:

You said "repentance" is a recognition of our sinnership. Yet, before you said a person was not saved if thy continue in certain sins. In other words, it sounds like your belief here is contradictory.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

It says 1st put on the helmet of salvation. So that’s talking about the head. Right?!
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Ephesians 6:17
So it’s the head that accepts Christ as Lord and savior.
Then it says and he may know !
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:13
To take from this verse, “That ye may know that ye have eternal life”!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It says 1st put on the helmet of salvation. So that’s talking about the head. Right?!
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Ephesians 6:17
So it’s the head that accepts Christ as Lord and savior.
Then it says and he may know !
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:13
To take from this verse, “That ye may know that ye have eternal life”!

Eternal life is a person. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. If you were to turn to 1 John 2:4 it says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Ephesians 6 has to be read in context to Ephesians 5 that says,

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them." (Ephesians 5:3-7).