Calvinist Baptist Talk

[@@Paul@@]

OK, you both are breaking the rules. You're both basicly saying Calvinists are NOT Christian...but Scripture does say that the Holy Spirit will lead believers into all truth.

Which is what is happening.

Do you really understand what the fight is over? You guys are both saying that man's will is needed for salvation. God casts His vote for you, the Devil casts his against you and you get to decide.

How carnal, truly carnal and with comments stating Calvinists are not Christian (which is exactly what is implied), we see your true spirit.

SP

There was NO such implication... I'm sorry if you felt that way...

The "falling away" is from the truth > those fallen are still Christians, whether it's Carl the Calvanist or Bob the Baptist.

 

[JM]

I should have wrote in the the OP, This is a place for ya'll to attack Calvinist Baptists, not much brotherly talk going on in here. BT is the only one to show and kind of love in his posts...so far.

Those who fall away were never saved in the first place, classic Baptist answer, unless you believe salvation can be had then lost.

SP

 

[@@Paul@@]

Those who fall away were never saved in the first place, classic Baptist answer, unless you believe salvation can be had then lost.

SP

Obviously there is a communication breakdown....

It's your opinion that those who fall away are never saved, not mine... therefore there was no implication on my part that you were not a Christian... you're reading your beliefs into my posts. - as i see it -

I've learned a lot in this post, thanks for your time.

 

[JM]

Obviously there is a communication breakdown....

It's your opinion that those who fall away are never saved, not mine... therefore there was no implication on my part that you were not a Christian... you're reading your beliefs into my posts. - as i see it -

I've learned a lot in this post, thanks for your time.

[edit made by SP, taking keyboard out of mouth.]

 

[JM]

I don't get it? What's a Cal-minian?

A Calminian is a partly Calvinist and partly Arminian.

 

[JM]

An interesting notion... but I'm still waiting for the Scripture. There is a lot of Scripture that deals exactly with Salvation. No offense but I'm not interested in eisegesis and dogmatic interpretation drives me crazy (this thread is FULL of it). Take the scriptures that teach SALVATION and show me.

You asked for Scripture, I gave a clear example of Lydia's heart being opened by God so she could hear the Gospel. Do you deny that God opened Lydia's heart?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God...

Very cut and dry.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1994i/J12-94c.htm

If Christ died for all men, why did the son of perdition not have a chance to choose? He was lost to fulfill Scripture, after all.

SP

 

[@@Paul@@]

If Christ died for all men, why did the son of perdition not have a chance to choose? He was lost to fulfill Scripture, after all.

SP

But don't you see what you are saying??

It's like: God, made Pharaoh kill all the Hebrew boys so that Moses could then be raised by Pharaoh's daughter... That's silly..

Maybe, God knew what was going to happen AND used the outcome accordinding (for both the "son of perdition" and Moses) without effecting man's choice to do right or wrong? - He CAN do it!!

 

[BBAS 64]

Good point.......

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
​

Could this use of "conscience" could be explained as "nature bearing witness"?

Good day, Paul

The conscience of the "unbelieving" or with out Faith.

*** 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

ALT:
*** 1:15 All things indeed [are] pure to the pure, but to the ones having been defiled and unbelieving nothing [is] pure, _but_ both their mind and their conscience [are] defiled.

If an unbeliver has a emptiness of faith and is still in the natural state lacking knowledge of God. The question in Romans then become one of the means by which the writing on the heart of those who have no law, do by Nature the things contained with in the law.

If the conscience is defiled, then the writing of the law on their hearts "conscience" will change thier nature. Thus they will do things with in the law that has been written and this is baring witness to the law that was written over thier defiled conscience.

The OT says that God will write his law on thier hearts, this is the result of God's writing on the hearts of those that are Gentiles there is a change of the things that they do for they do not have the "law".

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[@@Paul@@]

Good day, Paul

The conscience of the "unbelieving" or with out Faith.

*** 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

ALT:
*** 1:15 All things indeed [are] pure to the pure, but to the ones having been defiled and unbelieving nothing [is] pure, _but_ both their mind and their conscience [are] defiled.

If an unbeliver has a emptiness of faith and is still in the natural state lacking knowledge of God. The question in Romans then become one of the means by which the writing on the heart of those who have no law, do by Nature the things contained with in the law.

If the conscience is defiled, then the writing of the law on their hearts "conscience" will change thier nature. Thus they will do things with in the law that has been written and this is baring witness to the law that was written over thier defiled conscience.

The OT says that God will write his law on thier hearts, this is the result of God's writing on the hearts of those that are Gentiles there is a change of the things that they do for they do not have the "law".

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

Hi Bill,
Just when I thought this thread would die.

……….I’ll just use the same argument that has worked so far: In every case you quoted above, the “unbelievers” had already made a choice NOT to obey and live in ignorance. The longer you choose to ignore that there is a God (because creation proves there is), the harder it is to choose the light over darkness.

*** 1:14-16 KJV
(14) Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
(15) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.​

……………Paul is addressing those who KNOW THE TRUTH, yet CHOOSE to ignore it. The defiled in this case are those “that turn from the truth”. – see Romans 1 and 2.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

………..They did not care (turning from the truth).


You didn’t really try to use the New Covenant did you?? …….. What has to happen before the renewed Covenant is instituted (write the law in their (Jews) Hearts)??

Act 3:19-21 KJV
(19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
(20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
(21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

……….You must REPENT (used for application purposes only ).

I accept Romans 1 and 2 as proof (in my eyes) that God allows US to choose Him and that creation is the means he shows ALL "the light" - so they (mankind) are without excuse...

............Thanks for the thoughts; I suspect, I didn't change your mind?

 

[JM]

But don't you see what you are saying??

It's like: God, made Pharaoh kill all the Hebrew boys so that Moses could then be raised by Pharaoh's daughter... That's silly..

Maybe, God knew what was going to happen AND used the outcome accordinding (for both the "son of perdition" and Moses) without effecting man's choice to do right or wrong? - He CAN do it!!

Don't you see what you're saying, people die without a reason, no purpose in mind...that's not a universe of an orderly God that's chaos. I can share the Gospel with everyone knowing that it is God who quickens, not my preaching. I share the Gospel out of obediance not because it's mans free choice. When a person dies, I can say, God has a purpose and God is good.

I find comfort in the Bible, not chaos.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Don't you see what you're saying, people die without a reason, no purpose in mind...that's not a universe of an orderly God that's chaos. I can share the Gospel with everyone knowing that it is God who quickens, not my preaching. I share the Gospel out of obediance not because it's mans free choice. When a person dies, I can say, God has a purpose and God is good.

I find comfort in the Bible, not chaos.

As I find comfort in the Bible too.

 

[bleechers]

OK, you both are breaking the rules. You're both basicly saying Calvinists are NOT Christian...but Scripture does say that the Holy Spirit will lead believers into all truth.

Which is what is happening.

How carnal, truly carnal and with comments stating Calvinists are not Christian (which is exactly what is implied), we see your true spirit.

SP

Sorry you feel this way. The original context of the post needs to be understood. There was a post suggesting that the Calvinist movement "sweeping" Baptist churches was somehow evidence of its validity. I put a "wink" next to my response, but apparently (once again) my humor failed.

You must understand that I agree with @@Paul@@'s assessment of the falling away (coupled with the NT idea that CHRISTIANS will also see a day when sound doctrine is not endured by CHRISTIANS). I never meant to imply in any way that Calvinists are not Christians.

To quote the heathen poet John Lennon "I said it and it was wrong; or it was taken wrong. Now there's all this."

Let it be known that I greatly respect the brethren here in this forum. The defense of the dispensations by several of you is worthy of both respect and admiration.

If any disrespect was felt or taken, I deeply apologize.

 

[BT]

OK, you both are breaking the rules. You're both basicly saying Calvinists are NOT Christian...but Scripture does say that the Holy Spirit will lead believers into all truth.

Which is what is happening.

I personally would not say that Calvinists are NOT Christian... though I disagree with the doctrine of Grace as they believe or understand. I wouldn't say that they are not Christians...

 

[BT]

You asked for Scripture, I gave a clear example of Lydia's heart being opened by God so she could hear the Gospel. Do you deny that God opened Lydia's heart?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God...

Very cut and dry.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1994i/J12-94c.htm

If Christ died for all men, why did the son of perdition not have a chance to choose? He was lost to fulfill Scripture, after all.

SP

I think that maybe my question was not phrased so well. There are certain passages that teach doctrine. The passages whose purpose is to teach doctrine. Of course I do not deny that God opened Lydia's heart. But what does that mean? Did he regenerate her? You can't say that.. it's adding to the scriptures. She was already a proselyte, a Jewess, who God in his providence brought to a perfect place at a perfect time. This account is neither intended to teach doctrine, nor does it prove your point. So show me the doctrine in scripture that says what I asked for in the other post (quoted again below).

Now as for "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.." "it's cut and dry"

It is not. It does not show that you are regenerated prior to believing. It shows that you are saved (reworded) Through faith, by grace.. so faith comes before grace. From whence does the gift (faith) come? The Word. I don't need to read the link (though I usually do). I want you to find the scripture that you base your belief on and show it to me, exegeted to prove that :

you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect.

and

you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect.

Those are the two statements. Now provide the doctrinal scripture and exegete it for me, of yourself. I know you "aren't an expert defender" but I believe that you understand enough of the doctrines of grace to be able to support your own comments. I'm not looking for an expert defense, I'm looking for scripture that teaches this doctrine. We'll move into "limited atonement" when we've settled this one...

 

[JM]

It's not you, it's me.

 

[BT]

It's not you, it's me.

ROFL! Brother though we may disagree on this subject for the next fifty years or more, I don't think (and I pray) that it will ever be a dividing wedge between us.

 

[JM]

It never will!

 

[BT]

It never will!

 

[eldermike]

ROFL! Brother though we may disagree on this subject for the next fifty years or more, I don't think (and I pray) that it will ever be a dividing wedge between us.

I agree, only our enemy wants us divided.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,
Just when I thought this thread would die.

……….I’ll just use the same argument that has worked so far: In every case you quoted above, the “unbelievers” had already made a choice NOT to obey and live in ignorance. The longer you choose to ignore that there is a God (because creation proves there is), the harder it is to choose the light over darkness.

*** 1:14-16 KJV


(14) Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
(15) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

​

……………Paul is addressing those who KNOW THE TRUTH, yet CHOOSE to ignore it. The defiled in this case are those “that turn from the truth”. – see Romans 1 and 2.

Good Day, Paul

Very interesting take on Romans 1 and 2 would be interested in your exergesis of those two chapters, as I have read 3-4 diffenet commentaries on those verese and never read your take on them.

*** 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

*** 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

*** 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

*** 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

*** 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

*** 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

*** 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Paul,

I never refered to "unbelievers" I refered to the ADJ "unbeliveing that is used to descripe "them" (15) in costrast to "the pure" (15). Are you saying here that the "that" refers to unbeliving that comes after the "that".

You also said that there is some one here who made a choice, where? Defiled " verb" combined with the "is" which is used to describe the condition of subjucet which is the noun the proceeds it " conscience," not a phase used some 20 words back in the context.



​

………..They did not care (turning from the truth).








You didn’t really try to use the New Covenant did you?? …….. What has to happen before the renewed Covenant is instituted (write the law in their (Jews) Hearts)??

Act 3:19-21 KJV


(19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
(20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
(21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

​

……….You must REPENT (used for application purposes only ).



I accept Romans 1 and 2 as proof (in my eyes) that God allows US to choose Him and that creation is the means he shows ALL "the light" - so they (mankind) are without excuse...

............Thanks for the thoughts; I suspect, I didn't change your mind?

For, me it is not a maater of changing one's mind it is the abilty to understand the context of the written word, and do so with an understanding that words have meaning and grammer has rules the must be upheld least the text is turned to mush.

Peace to u,

Bill