Calvinist Baptist Talk

[JM]

John 8 is a good example in general of mankinds' helplessness. We see that we are slaves to sin, a slave does what his/her masters commands and we also see that we need Christ to be 'set free.' No extra reading into the passage, it's right in front of us.

 

[BT]

There are 59 verses in the 8th Chapter of John and not one of them contains the word "slave" or "slaves"....

so much for "not extra reading into the passage" eh?

I'm beginning to feel that no one is going to answer my question. I shall proceed to the corner where I will assume the fetal postion and cry pitilessly...

 

[@@Paul@@]

I'm beginning to feel that no one is going to answer my question. I shall proceed to the corner where I will assume the fetal postion and cry pitilessly...

You'll have to wait... I'll be done in a minute...

 

[BBAS 64]

There are 59 verses in the 8th Chapter of John and not one of them contains the word "slave" or "slaves"....

so much for "not extra reading into the passage" eh?

I'm beginning to feel that no one is going to answer my question. I shall proceed to the corner where I will assume the fetal postion and cry pitilessly...

Good Day, BT

Though it may be true that the word slave does not appear with in the chapter of JN. SP made a nessarity qualifacation in his post.

"a slave does what his/her masters commands and we also see that we need Christ to be 'set free."

They where sevants of sin (34)these people where not "free" verse 36.



Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

They were not of God , But of the devil their father who is there master and they served him, and not God. For if they were of God they could have heard God words, but they can not.

They in a scence were slaves because of thier "ofness", or from which they came from and have thier beginning. The ones that are of God "from which they came and have thier beginning" hear God's word.

Peace to u,

Bill

More on Jn 8: http://www.christianforums.com/t707870

 

[BT]

Good Day, BT

Though it may be true that the word slave does not appear with in the chapter of JN. SP made a nessarity qualifacation in his post.

"a slave does what his/her masters commands and we also see that we need Christ to be 'set free."

They where sevants of sin (34)these people where not "free" verse 36.

They were not of God , But of the devil their father who is there master and they served him, and not God. For if they were of God they could have heard God words, but they can not.

They in a scence were slaves because of thier "ofness", or from which they came from and have thier beginning. The ones that are of God "from which they came and have thier beginning" hear God's word.

Peace to u,

Bill

More on Jn 8: http://www.christianforums.com/t707870

Hello Bill, welcome to the in-house Baptist discussion on Calvinism

Now over the course of the past few months, whenever we have bumped into each other (usually on this topic for some strange reason, eh?) I have learned to respect your method of explanation. It is always done in a careful manner with ( I believe) the best intentions at heart.

So be not offended when I tell you that your understanding of this chapter is wrong. You can not understand John 8 by beginning at the 34th verse. You must start at the beginning where the self-righteous were attempting to get Jesus' blessing in stoning a woman. Which (we know the story) they did not get. Some of the important verses that you've missed (and those who use this passage in general) are such as

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

So are the dead following him or have they been regenerated, and where is this evidence of regeneration?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Now this is of course something he is saying to the Pharisees. And with our understanding of who he was it is a startling revelation, that the religious leaders of Judaism don't know the father... however I digress.

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Who cannot come? Me and You? No, the Pharisees. This isn't about us.. let me skip ahead

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Ok, who said? Jesus said. Said what? If you believe not. Then what? ye shall die.

So what is that which will cause you to die in sins? If you believe not. Now if you will attempt to tell me that Jesus did not know what He was talking about (which I don't for one second think you would) we have bigger things to discuss. Let us continue...

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Ok as who spoke? As Jesus spoke. What happened? Many believed.
So what causes belief? The WORD causes belief. Do you see anything about regeneration or total inability to believe or anything like that here? No.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Who spoke? Jesus. To whom? The Jews which believed. By what did they believe, was it regeneration or election? No it was by His WORD... not words do you notice.... again where is the inability, where is the regeneration? It simply isn't there.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Now this is important ok? You see the problem was that they thought they were righteous because they were the seed of Abraham. They did not see that they were in fact sinners (this is a common problem that we have in the world today... nobody thinks they are sinners). They didn't understand the scriptures. So now Jesus proceeds to teach them that they are in bondage to sin and don't have a free ride simply because they are the sons of Abraham.


My friend. Your understand is wrong. I'm sorry but I hope that you can be teachable enough to understand that this does not mean what you and SP thought it did.

So I ask again. Will someone show me in the Scriptures:

you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect.

and

you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect.

 

[bleechers]

There's the word "seek" again used of the lost (see also Proverbs 1)

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

They were not of God , But of the devil their father who is there master and they served him, and not God. For if they were of God they could have heard God words, but they can not.

So are you then arguing that you did not "become" a son of God because you "believe[d] on His name"? (John 1:12) You're saying that you have always been a son of God?

So what were we before we became the sons of God? We were the servants of sin were we not? Should we then conclude that none of could ever hear God's word? Or should we conclude that we have always been the sons of God? You don't want to say that do you?

If the elect are always "sons of God" and never were "sons of the devil" who are the people in John 1 who "become" the sons of God? And if you believe we "become" the sons of God, you must see that it is by "believing".

They where sevants of sin (34)these people where not "free" verse 36.

What do you with this verse?

Galatians 4
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

According to Paul we were all servants, but we then became sons of God. Jesus says we become the sons of God by believing. I see no reason to conclude from John 8 that being a "servant of sin" means that we can never make a choice to believe. In fact, John 1:12 would suggest otherwise.

John 8 is a good example in general of mankinds' helplessness. We see that we are slaves to sin, a slave does what his/her masters commands and we also see that we need Christ to be 'set free.' No extra reading into the passage, it's right in front of us.

The first sentense here has no reason to be connected to the rest of the paragraph. It is a "pre-conclusion". I would say, that we are indeed "slaves to sin" and indeed we need Christ to "set us free". This is accomplished by God giving us the "power to become the sons of God" by the act of "believing". That is consistent with all the passages and verses quoted.

 

[BT]

Hey what do you mean you don't know about that... ?

 

[bleechers]

Hey what do you mean you don't know about that... ?

Nothing... my post started out as a nonchalant reference to the word "seek" in John 8... but I just kept going. In my third edit, I took it out as it no longer made sense.

 

[BT]

Nothing... my post started out as a nonchalant reference to the word "seek" in John 8... but I just kept going. In my third edit, I took it out as it no longer made sense.

Oh ok.. for a minute there I thought I was gonna have to give you the "right hand of fellowship" right upside the shnazz.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Oh ok.. for a minute there I thought I was gonna have to give you the "right hand of fellowship" right upside the shnazz.

You guys rock,, ROFL.... I think i was "elected" to find this group.

 

[JM]

There are 59 verses in the 8th Chapter of John and not one of them contains the word "slave" or "slaves"....

so much for "not extra reading into the passage" eh?

I'm beginning to feel that no one is going to answer my question. I shall proceed to the corner where I will assume the fetal postion and cry pitilessly...

Your right, it reads servant.

Strongs reads: From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

 

[JM]

If acceptance of the gift of salvation is up to the believer, why pray to God for their conversion? If God is waiting on them to make the final choice, why pray?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

so how does one because free from sin....

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[BT]

If acceptance of the gift of salvation is up to the believer, why pray to God for their conversion? If God is waiting on them to make the final choice, why pray?

Heck if the opposite is true then why witness? Which actually is the view of some hyper-calvinists. What is our prayer (content)? In my own personal prayer ( I can not speak for others) it is for the Spirit to convict them of their sin. It is the WORD that reaches into the sinner and cuts like a "two-edged sword dividing to the marrow" (paraphrase)... Don't get me wrong. God is the author of salvation, the work is his. It's like I'm standing here with a gift for you and your buddy says to me, "tell him the gift is for him, all he has to do is take it.." (that's not a great analogy)

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

so how does one because free from sin....

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Of course, it is the sacrifice of the Son which makes us free. Without that there is no freedom (from sin). If this was according to your idea would it not say that the "Father makes you able" and the "Son makes you free" or the "Father makes you free so you can get the Son" or something along those lines..? The issue we're dealing with is inability... And in anyway that you read this scripture you can not see God making anyone alive before he saves them.


I mean if we're dead in sin in the way that you see it, how could the Pharisees make the Word of God of no effect through their traditions? They shouldn't have been able to affect it at all... heck they should have been the number one guys if God picked them to be the "rulers of Israel" but they weren't.. they inserted their evil by their own will.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

What about the parable of the sower? What is the difference in each case... the soil not the Word. The soil determined if the Word took effect, not the sower or the seed. How could the soil do that if it was all dead.. the parable doesn't say that the sower affected the soil.. he simply through out the seed (I know that this parable is often used by calvinists...which usually baffles me). Heck use the other parable where the "evil one" comes along and sows tares... Why would he have to? What is the purpose of it if they are all dead anyway just waiting for God to bring them to life (certain ones). There is no need for the enemy to do this.. it serves no purpose.. Ok I'm getting off track now, sorry.

I answered your question, now you can answer mine.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't get it? What's a Cal-minian?

a person who claims to be both an arminian and a calvinist.....like all those who believe once saved always saved but deny everything else calvinistic......

 

[@@Paul@@]

a person who claims to be both an arminian and a calvinist.....like all those who believe once saved always saved but deny everything else calvinistic......

I don't see how the two are related...

 

[BT]

I don't see how the two are related...

The calvinist believes that once you are saved you are secure in your salvation. Now some have mistakenly assumed that this is a "calvinist" doctrine, which it is not, nor is it restricted to calvinists only (which is not what the poster what saying, at least I don't think he was). So while calvinism may believe that once you are saved (if you are elect) you are always saved, the twist is that calvinism does not teach Assurance of Salvation persay.. which is another topic that, IF anyone ever answers my question, we can move to in the future.

 

[@@Paul@@]

......So while calvinism may believe that once you are saved (if you are elect) you are always saved, the twist is that calvinism does not teach Assurance of Salvation persay...

I think a is in order from this side of the fence.

So, you are only elect if you don't walk away from God?? or something to that effect... Maybe you were just never elect in the first place.

 

[JM]

The calvinist believes that once you are saved you are secure in your salvation. Now some have mistakenly assumed that this is a "calvinist" doctrine, which it is not, nor is it restricted to calvinists only (which is not what the poster what saying, at least I don't think he was). So while calvinism may believe that once you are saved (if you are elect) you are always saved, the twist is that calvinism does not teach Assurance of Salvation persay.. which is another topic that, IF anyone ever answers my question, we can move to in the future.

And I add, "some mistakenly assumed that all five points are 'calvinist' doctrine, which they are not, nor is it restricted to calvinists only but Christians in general. So while calminians may believe that once you are saved (it's up to you to grab the ring of life) you are always saved, the twist is that Calvinism doesn't allow for working with God to bring about salvation, it's up to God and God alone."

As for your questions BT, I think everyone is heated and it's best they sit for a while.

 

[JM]

BT,

Ask 'one' (1) of your questions again and as soon as I can, I'll do my best to answer it. Then we can move onto the next question, etc...sound ok?

SP

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't see how the two are related...

consider the foundational idea of Arminianism ....FREE-WILL , then see how that concept fits with the Yes , Calvinist doctrine of Once saved always saved , and you will see it doesn't fit too well!!

For those who don't think once saved always saved is Calvinist doctrine just consider the opposite doctrine (saved conditionally and many that were saved are lost) it can be easily defined as Arminian but it is equally claimed to be Biblical.