Calvinist Baptist Talk

[@@Paul@@]

To be faithful you first have to have faith, how does someone who doesn't seek God 'get' faith?

God gives it to the elect? ME!!

It's like the old infant baptism saying: "Baptized babies go to heaven; if they were only elect in the first place."
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.............The point is, we will ALL be placed in a position where we know there IS a God, at which point we are responsible; from then on, ignorance is bliss. I have friends that fit right into this.. they know there is a God but CHOOSE to live otherwise - thus blinding their own eyes and hardening their hearts (that's what SIN does).

Someone will not seek God, until AFTER they acknowledge there is a God. You seem to be skipping point A and going straight to C............. B being making a CHOICE.

Here's how i see it... I could be wrong.
A. From creation, see that there IS a God.
B. Make a decision on new knowledge:

a) seek God.
b) Run away.​

Guess where salvation comes in?? C.

 

[Tractor1]

@@Paul@@ writes:

Absolutely!!! and where is the power of God seen?? - all His creation.

I agree that the Lord has given man some perception of the Godhead through creation so that none are able to plead ignorance, but this discernment isn't enough to direct them to the truth, much less enable them to attain it.

(John 1:4-5) states, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John puts forth that man is indeed illuminated with a divine light so that we are never left without witness, but not enough to enable man to comprehend God. When Scripture describes men as being under darkness, the Spirit is saying men are lacking spiritual intelligence, therefore since the flesh has no capacity to comprehend God unaided by the Spirit, believers are said to be "born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). In the same sense Christ spoke about Peter's ability to comprehend when He said, "Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[eldermike]

you get faith in the presence of God, it has another name; fear.

Adam sinned - Adam hid from God - God called Adam - Adam came out full of fear, telling lies.

Before sin Adam walked with God, no mention of fear.
After sin, Adam was afraid of God, but trusted God and came out of hiding when God called him.
God calls, we come, we are given faith in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

There is not a quality in man that would cause man to seek God while full of sin.

 

[BT]

you get faith in the presence of God, it has another name; fear.

Adam sinned - Adam hid from God - God called Adam - Adam came out full of fear, telling lies.

Before sin Adam walked with God, no mention of fear.
After sin, Adam was afraid of God, but trusted God and came out of hiding when God called him.
God calls, we come, we are given faith in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

There is not a quality in man that would cause man to seek God while full of sin.

An interesting notion... but I'm still waiting for the Scripture. There is a lot of Scripture that deals exactly with Salvation. No offense but I'm not interested in eisegesis and dogmatic interpretation drives me crazy (this thread is FULL of it). Take the scriptures that teach SALVATION and show me.

 

[@@Paul@@]

@@Paul@@ writes:

I agree that the Lord has given man some perception of the Godhead through creation so that none are able to plead ignorance, but this discernment isn't enough to direct them to the truth, much less enable them to attain it.

(John 1:4-5) states, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John puts forth that man is indeed illuminated with a divine light so that we are never left without witness, but not enough to enable man to comprehend God. When Scripture describes men as being under darkness, the Spirit is saying men are lacking spiritual intelligence, therefore since the flesh has no capacity to comprehend God unaided by the Spirit, believers are said to be "born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). In the same sense Christ spoke about Peter's ability to comprehend when He said, "Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17).

In Christ,
Tracey

Why did those in the dark not comprehend ?

 

[bleechers]

If I have to explain the "seek" question again, I'm going to explode. I've posted two explanations from the scripture concerning the phrase "there is none which seeketh" God. I've explained Romans 3 in context and see no reason to not read it that way.

In fact, God states that there are those who will seek and find. He promises that if you seek with all your heart, you will find Him. That "seeking" is in response to the light that is given every man. We choose to either persue that light or persue darkness. The first is rewarded, the second cursed.

As to "fear" (which is the beginning of wisdom) it too is a choice:

Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Also, if you want to argue that the many verses concerning "seeking" God are only the elect responding to regeneration:

Prov 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

So who are these "seekers"? It can't be the elect? It is a group of people who (v.29) "hated knowlegde' and thus DID NOT CHOOSE the "fear of the Lord".

 

[BT]

If I have to explain the "seek" question again, I'm going to explode. I've posted two explanations from the scripture concerning the phrase "there is none which seeketh" God. I've explained Romans 3 in context and see no reason to not read it that way.

In fact, God states that there are those who will seek and find. He promises that if you seek with all your heart, you will find Him. That "seeking" is in response to the light that is given every man. We choose to either persue that light or persue darkness. The first is rewarded, the second cursed.

As to "fear" (which is the beginning of wisdom) it too is a choice:

Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Also, if you want to argue that the many verses concerning "seeking" God are only the elect responding to regeneration:

Prov 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

So who are these "seekers"? It can't be the elect? It is a group of people who (v.29) "hated knowlegde' and thus DID NOT CHOOSE the "fear of the Lord".

Could you please explain this one more time?

 

[eldermike]

Take the scriptures that teach SALVATION and show me.

Take the doctrine and study it with scripture, it's not a scripture issue it's a method of reading all scripture. I stopped debating this way some time ago, it's endless circles.

 

[BT]

Take the doctrine and study it with scripture, it's not a scripture issue it's a method of reading all scripture. I stopped debating this way some time ago, it's endless circles.

Well that's one way of of looking at it. I have studied the doctrine and the scriptures and the roots and the history. This is why I am a 0 point calvinist. You're right about one thing ( ) there are endless circles.

 

[eldermike]

there are endless circles.

Yep, like dajavo, all over again

 

[@@Paul@@]

If I have to explain the "seek" question again, I'm going to explode.

Better this

than this!!!

You've settled it for me.

 

[eldermike]

The OP

Calvinist Baptist Talk


Just thought we could talk in this thread, I'm by no means a great defender of the doctrines of Grace. If I lack ability to answer hard questions, it's not because an answer doesn't exist, but because I'm not sure where to find it.

Lets keep it peaceful and 'in house' between brothers and sisters.

SP

 

[JM]

I've heard baptists who call themselves Cal-minian, does this term work for you (meaning anyone reading this post)?

 

[bleechers]

Undsertood... it's just frustrating to answer a question, get no response... answer it again, get no response... and be asked again.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I've heard baptists who call themselves Cal-minian, does this term work for you (meaning anyone reading this post)?

I don't get it? What's a Cal-minian?

 

[eldermike]

Undsertood... it's just frustrating to answer a question, get no response... answer it again, get no response... and be asked again.

If it's me, I just missed it. Sometimes with running in and out of threads I would like to be part of, but with problems in other areas that drag me away I miss stuff.

 

[Tractor1]

Why did those in the dark not comprehend ?

My answer is: because they are unable. I'll refer you back to an earlier post in response to your statement which read: "men either choose God or not."

...and man cannot, nor will he without divine intervention. I've never intimated that man doesn't choose, only that man in his natural state doesn't have the ability to choose God without His intervention. In regard to Calvinism, I wouldn't put myself in a class with the extreme. I believe that God allows men to choose, but He produces upon the elect in order that they may choose Him. I also differ with most Calvinists in that I believe in an unlimited atonement, or that Christ's death was sufficient for the sins of all men, not just the elect.

Again, though man has the ability to choose that which is in keeping with his nature (rejection of God and His truth) it doesn't mean he has the ability, unaided by God, to believe.

This has been a fun exercise, but since I believe the productive nature of the conversation has passed I'll leave it to you.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[@@Paul@@]

Well, the scriptures do teach that there must come a great falling away before the end.

HAHA,, hey.. that's my line..

 

[@@Paul@@]

My answer is: because they are unable. I'll refer you back to an earlier post in response to your statement which read: "men either choose God or not."

...and man cannot, nor will he without divine intervention.

In Christ,
Tracey

And you also said:

...and man cannot, nor will he without divine intervention. I've never intimated that man doesn't choose, only that man in his natural state doesn't have the ability to choose God without His intervention. In regard to Calvinism, I wouldn't put myself in a class with the extreme. I believe that God allows men to choose, but He produces upon the elect in order that they may choose Him. I also differ with most Calvinists in that I believe in an unlimited atonement, or that Christ's death was sufficient for the sins of all men, not just the elect.

In Christ,
Tracey​

For the sake of this argument i'll agree, and quote scripture stating why.

.........God's "divine intervention" can be seen ALL around us every day.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Without excuse means "without excuse"...

 

[JM]

HAHA,, hey.. that's my line..

OK, you both are breaking the rules. You're both basicly saying Calvinists are NOT Christian...but Scripture does say that the Holy Spirit will lead believers into all truth.

Which is what is happening.

Do you really understand what the fight is over? You guys are both saying that man's will is needed for salvation. God casts His vote for you, the Devil casts his against you and you get to decide.

How carnal, truly carnal and with comments stating Calvinists are not Christian (which is exactly what is implied), we see your true spirit.

SP