Calvinist Baptist Talk

[bleechers]

So you don't believe in OSAS? (tisk, tisk, tisk.)

Yes I do... but you seem to believe in ASBYS (Already Saved Before You're Saved).

 

[BT]

Yes I do... but you seem to believe in ASBYS (Already Saved Before You're Saved).

LOL. That's very well put! I've never heard it said like that before.

 

[Tractor1]

@@Paul@@ writes:

You will either choose God OR you will NOT choose God...

...and man cannot, nor will he without divine intervention. I've never intimated that man doesn't choose, only that man in his natural state doesn't have the ability to choose God without His intervention. In regard to Calvinism, I wouldn't put myself in a class with the extreme. I believe that God allows men to choose, but He produces upon the elect in order that they may choose Him. I also differ with most Calvinists in that I believe in an unlimited atonement, or that Christ's death was sufficient for the sins of all men, not just the elect.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Iosias]

Yes I do... but you seem to believe in ASBYS (Already Saved Before You're Saved).

I concur with BT's last post however I do believe that God has ordained an elect and a reprobate (i.e. hypercalvinism). A good summary can be found here: http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

One of the best defenses of Calvinism that I have come across is unfortunately in a book that is attacking dispensationalism.

 

[eldermike]

There was a good question posted on this forum not to long ago:

If you chose God and someone else doesn't, what superior quality in you allowed you to make a better choice?

 

[BT]

I concur with BT's last post however I do believe that God has ordained an elect and a reprobate (i.e. hypercalvinism). A good summary can be found here: http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

One of the best defenses of Calvinism that I have come across is unfortunately in a book that is attacking dispensationalism.

Often calvinism and dispensationalism do not go together, but this is not a rule. I do know several dispensational calvinists. I even have a couple of papers kickin around from a few. In general the assumption is that calvinism fits better with covenant theology, but this is not a rule either.

 

[BT]

Yes I do... but you seem to believe in ASBYS (Already Saved Before You're Saved).

Bleechers clear out some PM's and send me one I need to talk to you.

 

[bleechers]

If you chose God and someone else doesn't, what superior quality in you allowed you to make a better choice?

Why must there be a "superior quality" involved? That is a premise that I do not accept.

I say again as the scriptures say, some choose to be wise, some choose to be foolish.

I point again to the scriptures I referenced in an earlier post and I add:

The following makes no sense and is somewhat cruel if Calvinism is correct:

Proverbs 1
20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

v.22 - As long as you make us love simplicity?
v.23 - "Turn"? But how can we unless we have some superior quality in us?
v.24 - Well that's your fault. I couldn't do anything BUT refuse.
v.25 - Of course we did. You made us that way.
v.26 - But you made us refuse your counsel!
v.28 - But the Calvinists tell us that nobody seeks you.
v.29 - Of course we didn't "choose" the fear of the Lord. What do we look like? the elect?
v.30 - You created us to despise these things.
v.33 - If I hearken, does that mean that there is a "superior quality" in me?

Similar questions can be asked scores of times in the scriptures if Calvinism is correct.

 

[Iosias]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[JM]

Yes I do... but you seem to believe in ASBYS (Already Saved Before You're Saved).

That's what Calvinist believe as well, you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect. So, you sit in sin until God calls and if you're one the elect then you will be born again.

Very pale image of Calvinism bleechers, very pale.

 

[BT]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Great AV! You have copied the scriptures out that is the common argument used in this discussion. Now exegete them.

 

[bleechers]

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I already answered this if you'd like to go back and review my posts.


You might want to also look at the before and after context:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?...

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

This is Paul's case against the Law and for faith alone in salvation.


19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin


Note the conclusion (therefore). Again this is a case against any law-keeping in salvation. To say Paul is teaching that salvation is just something that happens regardless of anything anyone believes or rejects does violence to his ministry.

Paul finishes with a reiteration of his argument against the Jew and the Law:

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

 

[BT]

you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect.

So, you sit in sin until God calls and if you're one the elect then you will be born again.

Could you show that from the scriptures please?

 

[@@Paul@@]

.........without being elect? that would mean there is non-elect people going to #$%#?? - for all we know, I could be non-elect and living a lie!! or you!! I hold to the sea monkey comment, some may get into the "clean" tank, if i choose to let them (or maybe i'll just go play with the dog).

Is there a chance since God is OUTSIDE TIME and SO powerful, maybe, just maybe the full extent of what God can DO and SEE is beyond our human capabilities of understanding?

Joh 3:16-19 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

................"God so loved the ELECT"?

 

[BT]

"God so loved the ELECT"?

Yes, after some gymnastics that is what they say it means (IME). Some will even stretch to explain the "alls" and "whosoevers" to mean elect. I couldn't say they "all" do.. but in my experience with calvinists, reformers, call 'em what you will, when the discussion comes back to these points this is the interpretation that I get from them... Naturally this can't be used as a blanket statement for all of this belief.

 

[JM]

Could you show that from the scriptures please?

Acts 16 see Lydia. See also gifts of the Holy Spirit, one of which is...you guessed it, faithfulness. Why would you pray to thank God for a believers faithfulness if the faith didn't come from God?

 

[@@Paul@@]

Acts 16 see Lydia. See also gifts of the Holy Spirit, one of which is...you guessed it, faithfulness. Why would you pray to thank God for a believers faithfulness if the faith didn't come from God?

Are you saying faithfulness and faith are the same thing?

 

[BT]

Acts 16 see Lydia. See also gifts of the Holy Spirit, one of which is...you guessed it, faithfulness. Why would you pray to thank God for a believers faithfulness if the faith didn't come from God?

Nope try again. That is not a Scriptural evidence of a doctrine. Post and exegete the Scriptures. Give the proof of the doctrine. That's all I'm asking for.

"you can't be saved until your born again and you can't be born again without being elect. "

"So, you sit in sin until God calls and if you're one the elect then you will be born again."

Show the scriptures that say these things. The scripture not inference.

 

[JM]

To be faithful you first have to have faith, how does someone who doesn't seek God 'get' faith?

 

[eldermike]

Why must there be a "superior quality" involved? That is a premise that I do not accept.

Because it's logically better to be saved than lost. Ok, if it's not superior, then what's the quality that causes one to choose the other to reject?