Calvinist Baptist Talk

[JM]

No problem BT, I just can't understand how both of us are so close in belief but differ greatly on this ONE issue. As soon as I was saved the doctrines of Grace were the first things of the faith I was sure of, I new in my heart that I couldn't and wouldn't have chosen God if it was up to me.

I'm speakless to the sea monkey's comment, I was hoping to keep this as an in house talk with believers and feel offended at the off handed comment. Where's the love?

I believe in Sublapsarianism. This menas after sin entered the world God would have been totally just to have damned all mankind. But in His mercy He chose to save some.

Quote from Loraine Boettner: While the act remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of divine power exerted in lawful ways. This may be illustrated to a certain extent in the case of a man who wishes to construct a building. He decides on his plan. Then he hires carpenters, masons, plumbers, etc., to do the work. These men are not forced to do the work. No compulsion of any kind is used. The owner simply offers the necessary inducements by way of wages, working conditions, and so on, so that the men work freely and gladly. They do in detail just what he plans for them to do. His is the primary and theirs is the secondary will or cause for the construction of the building. We often direct the actions of our fellow men without infringing on their freedom or responsibility. In a similar way and to an infinitely greater degree God can direct our actions. His will for the course of events is the primary cause and man's will is the secondary cause; and the two work together in perfect harmony.

Funny how some would use the term 'robots' (or sea monkey's, I'm getting over it) and believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe God saved us by His choosing and you scream 'ROBOTS' but you'll glady say once saved always saved and the Arminian screams 'ROBOTS!' Whats the difference? Double talk, double talk. I'm all calvinist, you're semi calvinist and semi peligian...make up your mind! Synergism is a nasty false belief. ("...the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives." This unscriptural view is the greatest threat to a true understanding of salvation in the Church today.)

SP

PS: A prayer that you won't pray: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prayer_synergist.html

 

[JM]

WAAAAAAaaaay off topic you actually skipped all the way to point 5.

Yes I do accept that Christians are secure in their salvation. But I also submit that the Calvinist has no "Assurance of Salvation" and that "Eternal Security" (OSAS) is not a "Calvinist" dogma, it is a Biblical concept.

It's not off topic and that's the problem. If Grace is free and salvation a done deal, your choice can't be the deciding factor, God is. You can't chose something that isn't given to you and you can not refuse the light of Truth! Lydia's heart was changed by God, the son of perdition was lost to fulfill Scritpure...it's not a crazy idea.

 

[JM]

1. Why is it that one unregenerate person believes the gospel and not another?
2. Was he able to generate a right thought, produce a right affection, create right belief, while at the same time man #2 did not have the natural wherewithal to come up with the faith to be saved?
3. If they both made use of the same grace, did one make better use of it than the other?
4. If prevenient grace places us in a neutral state, then what motivates one man to believe and not another?
5. What principle in him made him choose what he did?
6. If all men are neutral in prevenient grace was it by chance that one believed and not another?
7. Is it the grace of God that makes you differ from unbelievers or is it your faith?

 

[BT]

No problem BT, I just can't understand how both of us are so close in belief but differ greatly on this ONE issue. As soon as I was saved the doctrines of Grace were the first things of the faith I was sure of, I new in my heart that I couldn't and wouldn't have chosen God if it was up to me.

Perhaps that is the difference. When I was saved I believed that Jesus saved me and that I had a choice. I could have denied His sacrifice for me and went about my life (ending up eventually in hell). That denial would have been my fault because I would have rejected Him. I was free to do either and at the end of my life had I rejected Him, He would be blameless and could have said something to the effect of, "You had a choice..". Now if I was condemned to damnation before the foundation of the world and had no option.. then at the end of my life when I stood before God I could have said, "I was a sinner, but how could I help it. You created Adam and he passed sin to me. You gave some people life but prepared for me death. You aren't righteous. By continuing in sin (by eternal decree) with no other option. I was, in fact, obeying You. I am not guilty, just unlucky." But my dear friend that is not love, and that is not how God is.

I'm speakless to the sea monkey's comment, I was hoping to keep this as an in house talk with believers and feel offended at the off handed comment. Where's the love?

Don't be too hard on him, he was just trying to be light and keep it inhouse so to speak.

I believe in Sublapsarianism. This menas after sin entered the world God would have been totally just to have damned all mankind. But in His mercy He chose to save some.

I agree that God would have been totally just to have damned all mankind. But in His mercy He chose to save any who would believe.

Quote from Loraine Boettner:

While the act remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of divine power exerted in lawful ways. This may be illustrated to a certain extent in the case of a man who wishes to construct a building. He decides on his plan. Then he hires carpenters, masons, plumbers, etc., to do the work. These men are not forced to do the work. No compulsion of any kind is used. The owner simply offers the necessary inducements by way of wages, working conditions, and so on, so that the men work freely and gladly. They do in detail just what he plans for them to do. His is the primary and theirs is the secondary will or cause for the construction of the building. We often direct the actions of our fellow men without infringing on their freedom or responsibility. In a similar way and to an infinitely greater degree God can direct our actions. His will for the course of events is the primary cause and man's will is the secondary cause; and the two work together in perfect harmony.

The analogy is ok for a house but not when speaking of God and the eternal punishment of man. God can direct our actions.. but why would He direct us to do evil (and thus be damned)? It is against His character of holiness, righteousness, and love.

Funny how some would use the term 'robots' (or sea monkey's, I'm getting over it) and believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe God saved us by His choosing and you scream 'ROBOTS' but you'll glady say once saved always saved and the Arminian screams 'ROBOTS!' Whats the difference? Double talk, double talk. I'm all calvinist, you're semi calvinist and semi peligian...make up your mind!

Synergism is a nasty false belief. ("...the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives." This unscriptural view is the greatest threat to a true understanding of salvation in the Church today.)

SP

PS: A prayer that you won't pray: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prayer_synergist.html

That is a perfectly scriptural view. But it's too generalized. As I've stated before I am not a follower of Jacobus Arminian. His ideas are not correct when weighed against the Bible either. As hard as it is for our human minds to grasp. The Grace of God is available to all men. Though not all of us are willing to admit the need of a Saviour. Just as some alcoholics are not willing to admit that they have a problem. Just as Lucifer was filled with pride and tried to exalt himself above God. Sheer foolishness but true nonetheless. Man was possessed of free will in the Garden (this is not disputed by any). Now calvanism will say that a result of the fall was the loss of free will, but this is a totally unscriptural assumption. There are many such absolutely unscriptural assumptions and ideas in calvinism. Which is why I reject all 5 points as understood... No. I would not pray that prayer.. nor would I pray the "Hail Mary"... but that doesn't mean that God has predestined the majority of people to eternal damnation for sin which is inherited...

 

[BT]

It's not off topic and that's the problem. If Grace is free and salvation a done deal, your choice can't be the deciding factor, God is. You can't chose something that isn't given to you and you can not refuse the light of Truth! Lydia's heart was changed by God, the son of perdition was lost to fulfill Scritpure...it's not a crazy idea.

That's true in one respect.. if you follow the first point you have to logically go all the way to the last point.. so I suppose it's not that off-topic.

Grace is free and salvation (to those who believe) is a done deal. The choice is not what effects the work. The work is God's alone (applying the blood, change in status etc.).

What ability is required to receive a gift? Regeneration? Show me in the Scriptures... (it isn't there) Now ask me to show you choice and rejection and it's all over the place.. belief etc. The scriptures say that we are saved through faith which is the gift of God. Saved includes regeneration.. so faith precedes regeneration, it's plain...

 

[@@Paul@@]

I'm speechless to the sea monkey's comment, I was hoping to keep this as an in house talk with believers and feel offended at the off handed comment. Where's the love?

Sorry, it was NOT an attack of any kind...

just the wonderful sense of humor God gave me.

 

[bleechers]

Why is it that one unregenerate person believes the gospel and not another?

One is foolish, one is wise.

Was he able to generate a right thought, produce a right affection, create right belief, while at the same time man #2 did not have the natural wherewithal to come up with the faith to be saved?

No, he believed and the other believed not. God created that ability. Choose today whom you will serve, etc.

If they both made use of the same grace, did one make better use of it than the other?

One was wise. One was foolish.

If prevenient grace places us in a neutral state, then what motivates one man to believe and not another?

Yes, God must illuminate, but then man must choose.

What principle in him made him choose what he did?

Faith is not a good work. God giving people the ability to believe does not amount to a "goodness" in man.

If all men are neutral in prevenient grace was it by chance that one believed and not another?

One was wise. One was foolish.

Is it the grace of God that makes you differ from unbelievers or is it your faith?

It is my new, eternal nature (OSAS). That new creation is a gift of God by grace through faith.

Are my answers the will of God?

 

[@@Paul@@]

Funny how some would use the term 'robots' (or sea monkey's, I'm getting over it) and believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe God saved us by His choosing and you scream 'ROBOTS' but you'll glady say once saved always saved and the Arminian screams 'ROBOTS!' Whats the difference? Double talk, double talk. I'm all calvinist, you're semi calvinist and semi peligian...make up your mind! Synergism is a nasty false belief. ("...the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives." This unscriptural view is the greatest threat to a true understanding of salvation in the Church today.)

I don't really see how the two clash... OSAS and "sea monkeys" (sorry for the analogy)??

We choose God, then we choose to OBEY God. Salvation comes when we choose, the "rewards" come when we obey.

 

[JM]

bleechers, I know you can do better then that...that was very half hearted and didn't answer the questions.

 

[Tractor1]

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [/INDENT]
………This is not referring to salvation. An unsaved person will not understand the things of the Spirit (creation is not one of them). i.e. Witchcraft > Homosexuality > Fornication > Idolatry > all those little things we now know is wrong (through the Spirit of God).

I have to disagree. The "things of the Spirit of God" pertain to much more than you've indicated, but none more so than the Scriptures that call man to our Lord and Savior. To the unregenerate these Scriptures are "foolishness" and due to their inability they're not able to know or receive the things of God. When (Romans 1:21) puts forth that "men became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" it speaks of more than man's depravity; its speaks of his inability to turn to God without divine inablement. The will of man has no power to transcendits his natural abilities and of himself is unable to understand the truth of God. The answer isn't found in development of the natural man, but is in the power of God as manifested in the work of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Tracey

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[bleechers]

bleechers, I know you can do better then that...that was very half hearted and didn't answer the questions.

Are you suggesting that my answers were not the will of God?

 

[@@Paul@@]

When (Romans 1:21) puts forth that "men became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" it speaks of more than man's depravity; its speaks of his inability to turn to God without divine inablement. The will of man has no power to transcendits his natural abilities and of himself is unable to understand the truth of God. The answer isn't found in development of the natural man, but is in the power of God as manifested in the work of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Tracey

Absolutely!!! and where is the power of God seen?? - all His creation.

None of your points really seem to be for OR against "calvanism"... You're comments on Romans for example:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

The very first step... THEY KNEW THERE WAS A GOD - and they glorified Him NOT....... only then did they become vain, only then do they become "darkened"....

You will either choose God OR you will NOT choose God...

 

[JM]

Are you suggesting that my answers were not the will of God?

I believe you answered freeely, according to your nature.

 

[Iosias]

If I may throw in an excellent calvinist link:
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

and add:

CHAPTER III ​

Of God's Eternal Decree​

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[a] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[c]​

[a]. Ps. 33:11; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17​

. Ps. 5:4; James 1:13-14; 1 John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13 ​

[c]. Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27-28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33​

​

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,[d] yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[e]​

[d]. I Sam. 23:11-12; Matt. 11:21, 23​

[e]. Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18​

​

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels[f] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[g]​

[f]. I Tim. 5:21; Jude 6; Matt. 25:31, 41​

[g]. Eph. 1:5-6; Rom. 9:22-23; Prov. 16:4​

​

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[h]​

[h]. John 13:18; II Tim. 2:19; see John 10:14-16, 27, 28; John 17:2, 6, 9-12​

​

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto:[k] and all to the praise of his glorious grace.[l] ​

. Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:28-30; II Tim. 1:9; I Thess. 5:9 ​

[k]. Rom. 9:11, 13, 15-16; Eph. 2:8-9; see Eph. 1:5, 9, 11​

[l]. Eph. 1:6, 12​

​

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[m] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[n] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified,[o] and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[q]​

[m]. I Pet. 1:2; Eph. 2:10; II Thess. 2:13​

[n]. I Thess. 5:9-10; Titus 2:14​

[o]. Rom. 8:30; see Eph. 1:5; II Thess. 2:13 I Pet 1:5​

[q]. John 10:14-15, 26; John 6:64-65; Rom. 8:28-39; see John 8:47; John 17:9; I John 2:19​

​

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[r]​

[r]. Matt. 11:25-26; Rom. 9:17-18, 21-22; Jude 4; I Pet. 2:8; II Tim. 2:19-20​

​

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[t] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.[w] ​

. Rom. 9:20; Rom. 11:33; Deut. 29:29 ​

[t]. II Pet. 1:10; I Thess. 1:4-5​

. Eph. 1:6; see Rom. 11:33 ​

[w]. Rom. 11:5-6, 20; Rom. 8:33; Luke 10:20; see II Pet. 1:10​

 

[bleechers]

Choose today, according to your nature, whom you will serve...?

Yes, all men have a fallen nature, but that does not mean that they are incapable of believing. Believing is neither a good work nor anything meritorious.

I believe you answered freeely, according to your nature.

Good. We needed to establish which "brand" of Calvinism we're dealing with. So to be clear:

You do NOT believe that every act is the will of God (i.e. even the typist's error) as many Calvinists claim.

You do NOT believe that arguing that man can function "freely" is the same as saying that God is not sovereign as many Calvinists do.

You do believe that men can make decisions (good, bad, indifferent) based on a real choice against what many Calvinists teach.

You reject the concept of "the elect" as taught by Calvinists.

You REJECT the notion that hell was created for the "non-elect".

This is important. I am more comfortable with the notion of the illumination by the Holy Spirit being necessary for men to be given a choice. That does not mean, however, that no real "choice" is ever made.

The purpose of my answers was to measure where we're starting. With that said, my answers were scriptural. The scriptures do teach that there are those who are "wise" and those who are "foolish" and He is one that exhorts us to be "wise".

We are also admonished to do the will of God. It is a real choice.

We must therefore determine what the will of God is.

Jesus said: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. "

The choice is real:

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock...

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand...

Same group. One is wise, one is foolish.

The following is an admonition for Israel in Matt 25, but the principle is the same:

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

If the "wise" and "foolish" were pre-ordained, then the teaching is meaningless.

The admonition to "believe" is a true admonition. It is a real choice offered by Christ and by the Apostles.


John 10
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Why was He intsructing them to look at His works? So that they might believe. Why didn't He just make them believe?

John 11
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

Why not just make them believe? This is why I need to determine your brand of Calvinism...



So, to be clear, you do NOT believe that God makes people believe, rather, He illuminates them and gives them a real choice. Yes? No?

 

[JM]

Calvinist Baptists are growing: http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/3_24/pages/calvinism.html

"I just ask Calvinist students, 'Have you actually read Calvin?' They usually answer no. They've read someone's interpretation of Calvinism."
___--Warren McWilliams

I found the above funny, Grace doesn't depend on Calvin it depends on the Biblical backing.

SBC is heading toward fullness of faith and understanding: http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1997/oct6/7tb086.html

More grow in general: http://www.the-highway.com/articleNov97.html

 

[bleechers]

Calvinist Baptists are growing: http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/3_24/pages/calvinism.html

"I just ask Calvinist students, 'Have you actually read Calvin?' They usually answer no. They've read someone's interpretation of Calvinism."
___--Warren McWilliams

I found the above funny, Grace doesn't depend on Calvin it depends on the Biblical backing.

SBC is heading toward fullness of faith and understanding: http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1997/oct6/7tb086.html

More grow in general: http://www.the-highway.com/articleNov97.html

Well, the scriptures do teach that there must come a great falling away before the end.

 

[JM]

I'm not a hyper calvinist.

You do NOT believe that every act is the will of God (i.e. even the typist's error) as many Calvinists claim.

You do NOT believe that arguing that man can function "freely" is the same as saying that God is not sovereign as many Calvinists do.

You do believe that men can make decisions (good, bad, indifferent) based on a real choice against what many Calvinists teach.

You reject the concept of "the elect" as taught by Calvinists.

You REJECT the notion that hell was created for the "non-elect".

I believe that hell will be filled with sinners, that all mankind is heading for hell unless quickened by the Holy Spirit (born again), that God doesn't owe us anything and saved 'some' (blood shed for 'many' not all as in all cause then all are saved) from the fire of hell. I believe Christ died with the elect in mind, not as many believe for the whole world, if He did then the world would be saved. (Classic calvinist stuff I think, no I haven't read Calvin and hardy read calvinist works, I do read the Bible.)

SP

 

[JM]

Well, the scriptures do teach that there must come a great falling away before the end.

So you don't believe in OSAS? (tisk, tisk, tisk.)

 

[bleechers]

I believe that hell will be filled with sinners

Since God knew that He had created people for hell, would you contend that hell was created for men?

God doesn't owe us anything

Who said He did? Faith is not meritorious nor is it a work. In fact, scripturally, faith is the opposite of works.

I believe Christ died with the elect in mind, not as many believe for the whole world

1 John 2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for [the elect's] sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the [other elect]...?

Let's stay with First John:

1 John 5
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that we are of God, and the [other elect] lieth in wickedness...?