Believing VS Knowing

[Church2u2]

R

Well if the gospels are evidence of Jesus and his resurrection, then it's something you'd know.

Right.

 

[believeume]

Yes, emotion is something unique to those made in Gods likeness... For instance, a dog cannot understand justice, because that would require a God given grace that only humans have.

Oh come on, animals are capable of complex emotional relationships.

 

[BryanMaloney]

I can't imagine the Nicene Creed saying "We know the one God the Father almighty......."

...We really don't.

The original Greek isn't "know", anyway. Scripture differentiates between "know" ("eido" or "ginosko") and "believe" ("pisteuo").

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Hi Believeume, first off, WELCOME TO CF

You wrote:



Frighteningly, there is a kind of faith/belief that does not save. The demons "believe" in God, and they know what and who He is (and they shudder because of it .. James 2:19), but their "kind" of faith cannot save them.

Belief/faith that saves involves "trust", therefore, it's more than simply an intellectual ascent to His existence. True Christians don't simply/only believe "in" God, we truly "believe God" as well, knowing (for instance) that His promises to graciously save us, based upon the merits of Another, are true.

If sustaining belief in Him was exhausting for you, then I think it's pretty safe to conclude that you never had "saving" faith in Him, IOW, that you never became a "Christian" to begin with. Saving faith is not exhausting, in fact, it's quite the opposite. What is truly exhausting and frustrating for me is trying to live my life as a Christian 'apart' from faith and trust in Him.

You are correct though, our "knowing" Him (and He us .. John 17:3; Matthew 7:22-23) is at the very heart of our salvation, as those who do not know Him (nor He them) cannot be saved.

I was baptized a baby and attended church and Sunday School regularly through to my college years. I very much believed that there was a God, and that He was the one described in the Bible. So I always believed that I was a Christian, that is, until I actually became one when I was 30 years old.

Yours and His,
David

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and
believe in your heart that God raised Him
from the dead, you shall be saved"
Romans 10:9​

What do you mean ,when you actually became one at 30... What changed?

 

[believeume]

If by "classical" you're referring to such terms as understood and used by the pre-Christian Greek philosophers of epistemology, I'd say, yes, they are different. Those differences should be acknowledged and understood, and then for Christian discussion, clearly separated from what they mean in the scriptural context (the same is true, for instance, for "free will").

I would disagree that "believe" in the scriptural sense is the same thing as scripture defines "faith." Scripturally, faith is a real material property upon which scriptural belief (commitment) is based.

Scripturally, faith is not something to believe in, faith is a real substance--perceivable reality-- that is the foundation of belief in something unperceivable.

Classical english maybe, if there is one.

 

[believeume]

What do you mean ,when you actually became one at 30... What changed?

I didn't write that.

 

[Raycrossley52]

If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

Belief can change knowledge or knowing can not. For Knowing it is as it is. I believe in Jesus because I know Jesus is real A long time ago I did not really know Jesus christ Then when I was about 26 I died on an operating table I was dead for about eight minutes It was then in an NDE I met him. He sent me back here

 

[Landon Caeli]

Oh come on, animals are capable of complex emotional relationships.

Are you really suggesting that animals comprehend justice? That goes completely against everything we see in science and nature, where the strong survive.

Show me a single example of animals in the wild expeessing justice.

 

[Vicomte13]

Show me a single example of animals in the wild expeessing justice.

I hate to do this, but... Among apes, when they are out foraging around and find a fruit bush with good fruit, they call each other over. It has been observed that when one finds a fruit tree and does NOT call the others over, if the others discover it, they will come over, eat, and beat the one who did not call them. That's a rudimentary form of justice among animals in the natural world.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I hate to do this, but... Among apes, when they are out foraging around and find a fruit bush with good fruit, they call each other over. It has been observed that when one finds a fruit tree and does NOT call the others over, if the others discover it, they will come over, eat, and beat the one who did not call them. That's a rudimentary form of justice among animals in the natural world.

...Interesting, I'll have to look into that.

 

[pescador]

I know my wife -- not in the archaic King James "know" for you smirkers -- and I believe in her. What's the problem?

I know Jesus and I believe in him. It's not complex.

 

[Vicomte13]

...Interesting, I'll have to look into that.

I think it was observed among bonobos, though it may have been chimps or gorillas.

 

[aiki]

No I'm not saying that, but what you said about not interacting with Jesus physically concerns me.

I mean all we are is skin and bones and the spark if life, but....forget about it....

Why does what I said about not interacting physically with Jesus concern you?

Yes, we are skin and bones, but we are also spirit-beings, creatures possessing an immortal soul. Why the reluctance to spell out what you're thinking? I'm willing to listen and discuss your thinking with you.

Selah.

 

[Winken]

I've read each post and as I read "belief" and "faith" and "know" easily fluttered back and forth. There was a genuine, moving (Spiritual) comprehension of each. It is all encapsulated in Romans 10:8-13. Confess (publicly or privately) that HE IS; believe in our innermost being that He is who the evidence says He is (Biblically: born, lived, preached and witnessed, arrested, suffered and died, and walked out of that tomb)(GLORY!), each one thus confessing and believing walks in sustaining Faith (calm, confident assurance) of life eternal in His Presence. I know that I know that I know! NOTHING will ever remove that Faith, Hope, Trust and Belief from me.

 

[Winken]

Experience does matter, but real experience. Not stuff you make up in your head and put on your resume.

Calm, confident assurance (faith), belief (I believe it), and trust (in Him) are not products of "stuff you make up in your head." They are an exclusively Spiritual event for those who confess Jesus as Savior. He then equips each one to follow Him as Lord.

 

[BryanMaloney]

Are you really suggesting that animals comprehend justice? That goes completely against everything we see in science and nature, where the strong survive.

Show me a single example of animals in the wild expeessing justice.

A starting place. Amend your ignorance.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11211-012-0154-y

 

[BryanMaloney]

Are you really suggesting that animals comprehend justice? That goes completely against everything we see in science and nature, where the strong survive.

Show me a single example of animals in the wild expeessing justice.

More than a single example: http://www.humanecologyreview.org/pastissues/her131/bekoff.pdf

 

[Landon Caeli]

A starting place. Amend your ignorance.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11211-012-0154-y

Do I have to..? it costs $40.00.

Tell you what, I'll just start another thread on it and edit it's location later.

 

[Ron Coates]

In 1973, when I was 14, I was into sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. My dad was an avowed atheist. To me, God and Jesus meant Christmas and Easter. And nuns. This guy I had just met started nagging me to go to church with him. Of course I said no. But he kept at me. I finally made a deal with him that I would go once and he would stop bugging me. We got there and the first thing I noticed was that everything was covered in red velvet. Weird! Then a guy in a pin striped suit and white shoes picked up a mic and started talking. I had a hard time understanding him. Then we started singing. Or at least they did. I didn't know the songs or understood what they meant. The music was horrible. It was so foreign. Understand that at the time my favorite bands were Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. When it finally ended, I got ready to leave. My friend said "wait" and before I could respond, he ran up to the front and started talking to 2 guys with white shoes. After looking back at me a few times, they started back towards me. When they got to me, they started talking to me about God and Jesus. Then one of them read me John 3:16. Then a strange thing happened. It was like I saw a curtain right in front of me. A hand holding a sword came through the curtain and plunged the sword into my gut. As this happened, I understood that the verse they had read to me was true. I'm not sure how I knew it, but I did. I have never stopped believing it, even when I tried to. Since then I've had numerous experiences with God. And I've learned that many believers, if not most, don't have them. I want to say that I've never done anything to earn these, and that it's always been God's doing. And I don't understand why. Scripture says that those who believe without seeing are blessed. Anyway, I've written this in an attempt to get you to see how I've experienced faith and belief. It won't hurt and maybe it will help. I've come to see faith as a bridge to the reality of God. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 E.S.V. Do this and if you keep at it and don't give up until you find Him, I believe you will find Him. Peace.

 

[ScottA]

If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

It is a strange thing indeed.

To say, "I think, therefore I am", should be considered a broken or unfinished sentence. To finish the sentence, it should go something like this: "I think, therefore I am not sure, but I am working on it." Or: "I think, therefore - don't follow me, I'm lost."

Likewise, Christians who says they "believe", do not "know" there is a God at all, but are merely convinced there is - some mildly, and some even staking their life on it. But that all exists within a masterful plan of revelation that runs seamlessly down through all of history. Each person who becomes convinced has had a glimpse of God, and though they are incapable of saying without a shadow of a doubt that it is true, the evidence then begins to build until it is so overwhelming that "believing" is no longer the correct term. Yet, still not coming face to face with God, "belief" remains the term of use.

Still others, myself included, are more accurate to say we "know"...for our experience is not one of being convinced by God, but one of being confronted by God. Such a confrontation leaves one with an experience that exceeds all human definitions of reality...and it becomes their new reality - God's reality. And there are millions of us with whom this is true.