Believing VS Knowing

[RDKirk]

Knowledge is a kind of belief.

Knowledge is "a kind of" belief, but I'll requite Inkfingers on this:

The greek word πιστεύω, pisteou, is translated as "believe" but means "trust in" and "commit to". It's not just some kind of wilful denial of fact (which is how you seem to present it) but a concept that encompasses and includes knowledge rather than being opposed to it.

As scripture handles the term pisteou, it means commitment...which is a word that once meant much more than it means today.

My wife and I watched the new "Magnificent 7" over the weekend, and the moment of pisteou occurred when each of the men passed up their last opportunity to run away from the coming conflict. In the book of Daniel, the three Hebrews Meshach, Sharach, and Abednego reach their moment of pisteou when the king threatens them with the furnace and their answer is, "God could save us, but even if He doesn't, we won't bow to you."

Or like the old quip about the ham and eggs breakfast: The chicken was involved, but the pig was committed.

So it's very much possible for someone to have a knowledge of God--that He exists, and maybe even some passing involvement--without being committed to Him and His cause.

 

[zippy2006]

If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

Some Christians know Jesus from a personal encounter, and some believe in him without knowing in that way. Similarly, you believe in Michael Jordan even though you do not know him, and your belief is rational. You also might believe in Einstein and his theories without knowing him or being able to demonstrate the theories. That's a kind of faith.

How can one believe something they know?

If faith is understood as believing without seeing, then knowledge technically precludes faith. Yet often the case arises where someone sees something--perhaps Einstein's theories--and yet would still believe if they had not seen. So you can believe something with reference to the authorities and evidence, and at the same time know the thing in reference to the object itself.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Nobody can truly "know" or have "knowledge" of God until they come to be in his friendship and likeness... The saints "know" God.

...We are ALL called to be saints.

 

[Inkfingers]

it's very much possible for someone to have a knowledge of God--that He exists, and maybe even some passing involvement--without being committed to Him and His cause.

That being the difference between the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish ones...

And I suspect that we all may be a little complacent over which of them we each are.

 

[BryanMaloney]

What is "knowing"? The field of answering that question is called "epistemology". There is no consensus within that field regarding what constitutes "knowing". Is it merely certainty? But what is certainty? How would that differ from certitude? Then again, how would either differ merely from what is called "correct opinion" (where one achieves a correct outcome/prediction but actually only did so by random coincidence not at all related to ones reasoning)?

Then, once one has "knowing" how does one verify? How does one know that one knows?

Then, once one has "knowing that one knows", how does one actually transmit the "knowing" to another?

 

[believeume]

On an epistemological level, no, I wouldn't say that a Christian, during this life, really "knows" God, or Jesus; a Christian should move from belief to faith, and perhaps gain knowledge 'about' God of some type, but all of this kind of thing won't constitute our coming to really know God as He is yet to be known. However, the New Testament does emphasize that if we have faith, then He 'KNOWS' us.

If you look at the New Testament closely, I don't think you're going to find an emphasis on Christians 'knowing' God in the same way that, say, a man knows his wife, or even in a way that a guy knows his best friend, but you will find a lot of descriptions and/or directives about belief and faith in God (specifically through Christ, of course).

Churches today that harbor on attaining some kind of state of mind in which followers can claim that they "know" Jesus personally are really bringing into the New Testament faith a quasi-gnostic additive that isn't really reflected in the New Testament documents. Sure. If a Christian perceives that somehow God has worked in their lives in such a way that they have had a direct 'experience' of Jesus, then fine ... I guess they can add that to their epistemological résumé. But, it isn't the norm for the Christian life or for Christian belief.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Experience does matter, but real experience. Not stuff you make up in your head and put on your resume.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Knowledge is "a kind of" belief, but I'll requite Inkfingers on this:



As scripture handles the term pisteou, it means commitment...which is a word that once meant much more than it means today.

My wife and I watched the new "Magnificent 7" over the weekend, and the moment of pisteou occurred when each of the men passed up their last opportunity to run away from the coming conflict. In the book of Daniel, the three Hebrews Meshach, Sharach, and Abednego reach their moment of pisteou when the king threatens them with the furnace and their answer is, "God could save us, but even if He doesn't, we won't bow to you."

Or like the old quip about the ham and eggs breakfast: The chicken was involved, but the pig was committed.

So it's very much possible for someone to have a knowledge of God--that He exists, and maybe even some passing involvement--without being committed to Him and His cause.

I just looked at 'pisteou' in the Greek a few days ago for another thread and it is a verb. To state your belief, knowing, understanding, ect.

It is the verb part of believe or belief. A statement. Like 'I believe'. 'I know'.

 

[believeume]

If I am in a new house and the realtor tells me that the door goes to the garage, I believe the realtor to open the door then I know it is the garage since I am now in it. It is the same with Jesus, we believe the report about who He is but when we accept Him into our hearts we know Him.

How do we know anything? Usually by our 5 senses. But not all 5 senses have to be used to know something. I have heard the Lord speak to me audibly and I often feel His presence. However, the goal of maturing in the new birth is to integrate Christ into our lives so the 5 sense are no longer needed. Instead we know Him in the Spirit, which could be called a sixth sense where His communication becomes that still small voice that one knows intuitively just as a mother intuitively senses her baby when a baby has need.

I would say when a mother intuitively senses her baby's need, that sense is emotional.

 

[Cappadocious]

Knowledge is "a kind of" belief, but I'll requite Inkfingers on this:



As scripture handles the term pisteou, it means commitment...which is a word that once meant much more than it means today.

My wife and I watched the new "Magnificent 7" over the weekend, and the moment of pisteou occurred when each of the men passed up their last opportunity to run away from the coming conflict. In the book of Daniel, the three Hebrews Meshach, Sharach, and Abednego reach their moment of pisteou when the king threatens them with the furnace and their answer is, "God could save us, but even if He doesn't, we won't bow to you."

Or like the old quip about the ham and eggs breakfast: The chicken was involved, but the pig was committed.

So it's very much possible for someone to have a knowledge of God--that He exists, and maybe even some passing involvement--without being committed to Him and His cause.

Our OP claimed to be into the classical def's of belief and knowledge, which are different from this. What you're referring to is classically known as faith, which includes a belief; but also includes other things like an attitude towards that belief, plus (I'd say) some additional minimal action, etc.

 

[tatteredsoul]

If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

Belief and knowledge are two different sides of the same coin. There was a time I knew God existed, but didn't believe in Him. Contrarily, there were times when I believed in God, but didn't know Him.

I think belief is harder than knowing, because knowing feeds the ego - tricking the brain into thinking you have drawn a conclusion based on your own power. Belief, however, requires trust - something outside the ego - and that is usually a struggle.

I was not satisfied knowing God, and not believing. I was more satisfied coming to trust Him without knowing every intricate detail.

 

[believeume]

Christians could use both terms. It all depends on what is meant. Usually when Christians say: "I believe in Jesus" what they mean is "I trust Jesus". It would be like a Clinton supporter saying "I believe in Hillary Clinton". They could also mean "my allegiance is with Jesus".

One could theoretically know a person and not trust them and not be allegiant to them.

Yeah that's running loops in my head, I think I'll leave those ideas for later examination.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I would say when a mother intuitively senses her baby's need, that sense is emotional.

Yes, emotion is something unique to those made in Gods likeness... For instance, a dog cannot understand justice, because that would require a God given grace that only humans have.

 

[believeume]

Sorry, not sure I follow you here. Are you saying because I don't interact with Jesus physically that I have no reason to say that I know him? If so, I would respond that the experience of Christ that his disciples have of him is primarily a spiritual one. I just wrote a blog entry on this site that discusses this matter. Feel free to check it out:

http://www.christianforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/experiencing-god-are-you-in-the-faith.199933/

Selah.

No I'm not saying that, but what you said about not interacting with Jesus physically concerns me.

I mean all we are is skin and bones and the spark if life, but....forget about it....

 

[believeume]

Knowledge is a kind of belief.

Possibly, don't know.

 

[RDKirk]

Our OP claimed to be into the classical def's of belief and knowledge, which are different from this. What you're referring to is classically known as faith, which includes a belief; but also includes other things like an attitude towards that belief, plus (I'd say) some additional minimal action, etc.

If by "classical" you're referring to such terms as understood and used by the pre-Christian Greek philosophers of epistemology, I'd say, yes, they are different. Those differences should be acknowledged and understood, and then for Christian discussion, clearly separated from what they mean in the scriptural context (the same is true, for instance, for "free will").

I would disagree that "believe" in the scriptural sense is the same thing as scripture defines "faith." Scripturally, faith is a real material property upon which scriptural belief (commitment) is based.

Scripturally, faith is not something to believe in, faith is a real substance--perceivable reality-- that is the foundation of belief in something unperceivable.

 

[Church2u2]

Hi.Well how it worked for me is that I believed that Jesus died for my sins but I got to know Him through reading my Bible and then I began to accept Him as my personal savior and it also brought home how He suffered for my sins when I saw that movie Passion of the Christ.Before the movie I couldn't visualize what it was like for Jesus to be beaten and reviled. Of course it was probably a lot worse in real life.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I can't imagine the Nicene Creed saying "We know the one God the Father almighty......."

...We really don't.

 

[believeume]

This is what I think most people experience, although I would never claim to speak for all Christians.

Belief in God in the Bible is usually equivelized to faith. There are over 35 verses in the KJV of the New Testament in Bible that tell us it is "by faith" that we are saved. Which is pretty much 'belief'.

When one is saved by God there are things that God gives us to help us walk with Him. He does not leave us alone or without resources.

John 14:16-17
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

2 Corinthians 3:3
It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Jeremiah 31:33
33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

John 14:26
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. 27Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid."

John 10:28-29
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 16:7-8
7 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

1 Corinthians 2:15-16
15 The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

The main way that the Holy Spirit teaches us is through our reading and understanding of God's Word. That is how we get to know God and many times how the Holy Spirit teaches. When we ask God for answers, He gives us answers. Like this verse says:


Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

One comes to 'Know' their is a God as their faith grows and as they see God moving in their lives. But God does not hit you over the head with a bat. In His Word He tells us what He has given us and how we are to seek Him.

Seek Him with all your heart. Knock on the door, ask God to show you. Ask God to give you His spiritual riches (these are not monetary riches, but spiritual riches)

Does this make sense? Any other questions?

Do you feel that you have been given the Holy Spirit?

That's real interesting because you get told to go to church to learn about God, study the bible with other Christians to learn about God, spread the good word to teach others about God. But then we get back to this stuff, where the holy spirit is paramount to learning about God and then why do you need the other stuff.

 

[believeume]

Belief and knowledge are two different sides of the same coin. There was a time I knew God existed, but didn't believe in Him. Contrarily, there were times when I believed in God, but didn't know Him.

I think belief is harder than knowing, because knowing feeds the ego - tricking the brain into thinking you have drawn a conclusion based on your own power. Belief, however, requires trust - something outside the ego - and that is usually a struggle.

I was not satisfied knowing God, and not believing. I was more satisfied coming to trust Him without knowing every intricate detail.

I'll have to believe that, wink.

 

[believeume]

Hi.Well how it worked for me is that I believed that Jesus died for my sins but I got to know Him through reading my Bible and then I began to accept Him as my personal savior and it also brought home how He suffered for my sins when I saw that movie Passion of the Christ.Before the movie I couldn't visualize what it was like for Jesus to be beaten and reviled. Of course it was probably a lot worse in real life.

Well if the gospels are evidence of Jesus and his resurrection, then it's something you'd know.