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Was this a sign ?

John Bauer

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I don't [need a sign to start exploring the Bible]. I started reading it, as mentionned, and found its contents so utterly unbelievable (literally) that I couldn't really keep reading it without feeling ridiculous.
These are the issues I contend with, when facing the question of faith.
I'm very sorry, but I do not believe the earth was created like it says in Genesis, nor that man was made that way either.. there are way too many things that seem down right silly in that book.
That's why a concrete sign from the higher power itself, is to me the only real way I can start to believe there is something out there, but without necessarily believing the Bible and its contents verbatum.

I asked only because you said a clear sign would give you “the resolve to trust it and start exploring the Bible.” You wanted a sign “in order to move to the next step: believing enough to explore Christianity.” It sounds to me like you need not a sign but epistemic permission to take the text seriously without feeling intellectually irresponsible. What you need is a logically coherent hermeneutic—a set of assumptions and rules (often implicit) that govern how you interpret a text: what kind of text it is, what questions it is trying to answer, what would count as a mistake in reading it, and what would count as a reasonable conclusion.

You don’t need to lower your standards, even in the presence of a divine sign; the question is how and where you apply them. Also, exploration doesn’t require belief; it requires a willingness to ask whether there is a coherent way the Bible or Christianity is meant to make sense. Belief can follow once obstacles are removed. (Whether it does or not is another matter, but it can.)

The contents of Genesis can certainly appear silly when read naïvely—that is, when a modern English Bible is read without critically questioning your assumptions about the text or attending to its original language, grammar, and historical-cultural context, the very habits a genuinely skeptical reader brings to any serious text. With even a vague grasp of the original Hebrew (provided by biblical scholars) and the ancient Near Eastern cognitive environment of the original author and audience (described by historians), especially with a consistent hermeneutic possessing canonical coherence and explanatory power (provided by biblical theologians), the text no longer exhibits the silliness reflected in that naïve reading.

And that, I might add, is what exploring the Bible is about, rather than merely reading it.

You come away realizing that Genesis isn’t an account of natural history in the modern sense, an idea that rests on a material ontology—which didn’t even exist when Genesis was written. Light is said to exist when separated from darkness and named, the firmament when it divides waters, and so on. Genesis 1 is replete with separating and naming, framing existence not in terms of constituent physical material but of function and covenantal relation to God (which is why its original state was described as “formless and empty” [תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ, tohū wābōhū]). We shouldn’t expect an ancient Near Eastern ontology to be the same as our modern Western ontology.

Scripture is theocentric (God-centered) and Christological (about Christ), which means it’s not about natural history but redemptive history—which means the two are not mutually exclusive. That is why it’s possible to believe that the days in Genesis 1 were normal 24-hour periods, that Adam and Eve were real historical people, that the events in the garden actually happened and only a few thousand years ago—while also believing that the universe is several billion years old, that the evolutionary patterns of history are real, and that Homo sapiens have existed long before Adam. Both redemptive history and natural history are true; the key is realizing they are not the same thing, thus they can have different starting points without producing any theological or scientific conflicts. Natural history began more than 13 billion years ago, while redemptive history began less than 10,000 years ago (with an archetypal and covenantally ordered historical narrative that points to Christ).
 
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Lukaris

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Hi to all,

I'm a 44 yr old female, non believer up til now, but have been open-minded and actively wanting to find a reason to believe in something, for over 25 years now.

I'm highly skeptical, scienfitically-minded, and the type of person who simply needs concrete evidence in order to believe something is real. I was raised by atheist parents.

I have a question for you, but first, you need the context :

In the past years, I've often simply asked "God" or "Jesus" to manifest himself in a way that I would qualify as believable, not attributable to coincidence or mere chance.

It would have to be a very obvious sign, that couldn't be random. And in the past, I don't recall having ever been "answered".
My interest waned, faded and returned some months or years later, when I felt particularly vulnerable or beaten down by life or depressed.

Last night was one of those times, and I asked again, for a clear, unambiguous sign that I would not be able to attribute to coincidence.
I asked that my husband (who is an atheist and THE least spiritual person I know), to say the word "Jesus" during the course of the upcoming evening.
Of course, if that happened, I would be absolutely shocked and would have a serious reason to start believing that something must be out there listening. After all, if there is a God and he did 'make me', then he knows that I need such proof in order to believe.

What happened is that during the evening, we were watching Harry Potter and, at one scene, (where Ginny comes downstairs to find Harry in her house unexpectedly and backs away looking petrified and scary), my husband said "haha she looks like the AntiChrist".

At which point I immediately turned to him with disbelief, as he said the word "Christ" and that is extraordinarily unlikely with him !

BUT my problem is that he said it with the negative connotation of the devil, the antichrist, and that he didn't use the exact word "Jesus" which I'd asked for.

So this brings me to my question : was this the sign I asked for ? Can it be 'disguised' like this, and still be a sign ? Even with the negative connotation of the AntiChrist ??
I don't know what to make of it, and I was hoping you could help me with that.

Thanks a lot,
Kate
I believe what you experienced could be a sign and a realization leading you to this point and God calls Christians to help bring you ( & anyone) to the salvation of His Son Jesus Christ. I believe this is much of what is said in John 3:16-21 etc.

God wants us to live our lives in a loving and rational manner. We are called to love God & our neighbor ( Matthew 22:36-40), to treat others likewise ( Matthew 7:12 but then also read Matthew 7:1-12)) & live by sensible commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:1-14, etc.). It is a chaotic &, often insane, world that challenges us ( Matthew 24:1-14).

As Christians we should always there are many people unreached but not without hope ( Ezekiel 18:4-9, Psalm 15:1-5, Romans 2:1-16, 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13, John 5:22-30 etc.).

On a side note, as far as science, I believe in sensible scientific principles in living life we are born into. Science can only understand that we live and die and is sometimes used in a negative way with disastrous results. Religion is often blamed more for the same things but this is all human actions. Religious impulse for good is transcendent ( James 1:26-27) which leads to “good science” like medical cures. The basic laws of conservation of matter & energy are sound & sensible as we live in time. Ultimately though God tells us matter is created & sustained by His uncreated energy ( John 1:1-5, Isaiah 46:8-11 etc.).

I want to caution that I am no great intellect, I move boxes around in a warehouse & do janitor work ( not that these label an individual in any way). It took God’s grace and a lot of my marbles to express myself.
 
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Richard T

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What you did was pitvout a fleece. While it has significance your neglecting the entire body of evidence on the spiritual realm. That evidence points to Jesus. But to really have faith you need to hear from God directly. Are there signs? There should be.
4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

Too often we hear that God is weak, no longer has power, no more miracles, no more great interventiins etc. That is not true though. There is a real dark side and there us the Jesus side. God does still intervene and i pray you have an encounter that makes God real front and center likes one's Paul talks about.These front and center experiences will leave you with no doubt. So I beg you to pay attention even seek out more if God so He will reveal himself in a way that you know Jesus is real. God bless you!
 
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throughfierytrial

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Hi to all,

I'm a 44 yr old female, non believer up til now, but have been open-minded and actively wanting to find a reason to believe in something, for over 25 years now.

I'm highly skeptical, scienfitically-minded, and the type of person who simply needs concrete evidence in order to believe something is real. I was raised by atheist parents.

I have a question for you, but first, you need the context :

In the past years, I've often simply asked "God" or "Jesus" to manifest himself in a way that I would qualify as believable, not attributable to coincidence or mere chance.

It would have to be a very obvious sign, that couldn't be random. And in the past, I don't recall having ever been "answered".
My interest waned, faded and returned some months or years later, when I felt particularly vulnerable or beaten down by life or depressed.

Last night was one of those times, and I asked again, for a clear, unambiguous sign that I would not be able to attribute to coincidence.
I asked that my husband (who is an atheist and THE least spiritual person I know), to say the word "Jesus" during the course of the upcoming evening.
Of course, if that happened, I would be absolutely shocked and would have a serious reason to start believing that something must be out there listening. After all, if there is a God and he did 'make me', then he knows that I need such proof in order to believe.

What happened is that during the evening, we were watching Harry Potter and, at one scene, (where Ginny comes downstairs to find Harry in her house unexpectedly and backs away looking petrified and scary), my husband said "haha she looks like the AntiChrist".

At which point I immediately turned to him with disbelief, as he said the word "Christ" and that is extraordinarily unlikely with him !

BUT my problem is that he said it with the negative connotation of the devil, the antichrist, and that he didn't use the exact word "Jesus" which I'd asked for.

So this brings me to my question : was this the sign I asked for ? Can it be 'disguised' like this, and still be a sign ? Even with the negative connotation of the AntiChrist ??
I don't know what to make of it, and I was hoping you could help me with that.

Thanks a lot,
Kate
Hi KateMay!

Before delving into this sign validation I’d ask you: what do you currently think would happen to you after you die? What do you believe happens to the dead?

Also have you familiarized yourself at all with the Bible? as in reading some or all of it? If so what was the impact? If not, why not? Is the question of what will happen to me when I die not compelling enough to you to lead you to search for answers and would not reading the Bible be an avenue to search out in your quest??

Bible says in Jeremiah … if you seek me you will find me when you seek me with all your heart.

While God may provide signs to some people at His will; I believe it’s worth it and wiser, to humble oneself and seek out your faith questions through reading and start with the Bible.

Bible says… Faith coms from hearing the message and the message is the word about Christ.

I shall pray for you.
 
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throughfierytrial

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Hi to all,

I'm a 44 yr old female, non believer up til now, but have been open-minded and actively wanting to find a reason to believe in something, for over 25 years now.

I'm highly skeptical, scienfitically-minded, and the type of person who simply needs concrete evidence in order to believe something is real. I was raised by atheist parents.

I have a question for you, but first, you need the context :

In the past years, I've often simply asked "God" or "Jesus" to manifest himself in a way that I would qualify as believable, not attributable to coincidence or mere chance.

It would have to be a very obvious sign, that couldn't be random. And in the past, I don't recall having ever been "answered".
My interest waned, faded and returned some months or years later, when I felt particularly vulnerable or beaten down by life or depressed.

Last night was one of those times, and I asked again, for a clear, unambiguous sign that I would not be able to attribute to coincidence.
I asked that my husband (who is an atheist and THE least spiritual person I know), to say the word "Jesus" during the course of the upcoming evening.
Of course, if that happened, I would be absolutely shocked and would have a serious reason to start believing that something must be out there listening. After all, if there is a God and he did 'make me', then he knows that I need such proof in order to believe.

What happened is that during the evening, we were watching Harry Potter and, at one scene, (where Ginny comes downstairs to find Harry in her house unexpectedly and backs away looking petrified and scary), my husband said "haha she looks like the AntiChrist".

At which point I immediately turned to him with disbelief, as he said the word "Christ" and that is extraordinarily unlikely with him !

BUT my problem is that he said it with the negative connotation of the devil, the antichrist, and that he didn't use the exact word "Jesus" which I'd asked for.

So this brings me to my question : was this the sign I asked for ? Can it be 'disguised' like this, and still be a sign ? Even with the negative connotation of the AntiChrist ??
I don't know what to make of it, and I was hoping you could help me with that.

Thanks a lot,
Kate
Good Morning KateMay!

Not having heard more from you yet, though it be early, I felt it wise to contact you at least once more.

We must earnestly seek God as I previously wrote you… we all face the prospect of death, don’t want you to miss out then on the message of Christ…. the saving message.

I earnestly pray that this message in some way compells you to search for God.

We all have a conscience… some stronger than others. For even in an earthly sense we feel that sting of doing wrong… offending others in some way or breaking the laws of government. Conscience is from God… God-given. God, who is among kind, gracious and forgiving is also holy and sinless. When we commit acts against good conscience we are in fact acting out against God… against His will and purpose for our lives… in short we sin and live in disobedience. The result is we live apart from Him.

God, unbeknownst to you perhaps, is prodding you to seek Him…you ask for a sign When you earnestly seek Him you shall find Him. When you embrace Him you have that saving faith and God forgives all your wrongs committed against Him. You have peace with God and are assured of everlasting life.

A promise to treasure in your heart and mind is this: Jesus, while preaching to sinful mankind, said whoever believes in me has crossed over from death to life.
May God grant that in your life too!

Praying for you that you seek and Find!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi to all,

I'm a 44 yr old female, non believer up til now, but have been open-minded and actively wanting to find a reason to believe in something, for over 25 years now.

I'm highly skeptical, scienfitically-minded, and the type of person who simply needs concrete evidence in order to believe something is real. I was raised by atheist parents.

I have a question for you, but first, you need the context :

In the past years, I've often simply asked "God" or "Jesus" to manifest himself in a way that I would qualify as believable, not attributable to coincidence or mere chance.

It would have to be a very obvious sign, that couldn't be random. And in the past, I don't recall having ever been "answered".
My interest waned, faded and returned some months or years later, when I felt particularly vulnerable or beaten down by life or depressed.

Last night was one of those times, and I asked again, for a clear, unambiguous sign that I would not be able to attribute to coincidence.
I asked that my husband (who is an atheist and THE least spiritual person I know), to say the word "Jesus" during the course of the upcoming evening.
Of course, if that happened, I would be absolutely shocked and would have a serious reason to start believing that something must be out there listening. After all, if there is a God and he did 'make me', then he knows that I need such proof in order to believe.

What happened is that during the evening, we were watching Harry Potter and, at one scene, (where Ginny comes downstairs to find Harry in her house unexpectedly and backs away looking petrified and scary), my husband said "haha she looks like the AntiChrist".

At which point I immediately turned to him with disbelief, as he said the word "Christ" and that is extraordinarily unlikely with him !

BUT my problem is that he said it with the negative connotation of the devil, the antichrist, and that he didn't use the exact word "Jesus" which I'd asked for.

So this brings me to my question : was this the sign I asked for ? Can it be 'disguised' like this, and still be a sign ? Even with the negative connotation of the AntiChrist ??
I don't know what to make of it, and I was hoping you could help me with that.

Thanks a lot,
Kate

I'd stick with science, philosophy and history rather than walking on the side of pseudo-science via sporadic requests for God's manipulations. One doesn't have to give these areas of critical thinking up in order to find some truth in the Bible and see other forms of God's providence in World History.

However, rather than just reading the Bible and trying to swallow it like a large horse pill, you might want to investigate, research, study, read other, more academic and scholarly works by which to 'rethink' the way in which the Biblical contents, if true, could be personally valuable.

Too often these days, people are looking only for direct empirical confirmation in their daily lives rather than remaining epistemologically open for critical analysis that might indicate that the Bible has other forms of spiritual relevance, and to my philosophically inclined mind, wanting direct empirical confirmation is often looking in the wrong direction.
 
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throughfierytrial

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I'd stick with science, philosophy and history rather than walking on the side of pseudo-science via sporadic requests for God's manipulations. One doesn't have to give these areas of critical thinking up in order to find some truth in the Bible and see other forms of God's providence in World History.

However, rather than just reading the Bible and trying to swallow it like a large horse pill, you might want to investigate, research, study, read other, more academic and scholarly works by which to 'rethink' the way in which the Biblical contents, if true, could be personally valuable.

Too often these days, people are looking only for direct empirical confirmation in their daily lives rather than remaining epistemologically open for critical analysis that might indicate that the Bible has other forms of spiritual relevance, and to my philosophically inclined mind, wanting direct empirical confirmation is often looking in the wrong direction.
Strongly disagree if faith is your goal.
See Romans 10:17

Consider: science, is an open-ended study of necessity.. new ideas come up and must be tested against the current ones. Egos are attached, biases exist and in short men are fallible. Gods word is holy, just and pure truth

We are not reading alone when we eagerly seek the truth. The Holy Spirit is with us and teaches us and reminds us of all Jesus said and taught

I John 2:27:
27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Strongly disagree if faith is your goal.
See Romans 10:17

Consider: science, is an open-ended study of necessity.. new ideas come up and must be tested against the current ones. Egos are attached, biases exist and in short men are fallible. Gods word is holy, just and pure truth

We are not reading alone when we eagerly seek the truth. The Holy Spirit is with us and teaches us and reminds us of all Jesus said and taught

I John 2:27:
27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

I don't think you actually understood much of what I was implying to the OP (i.e. NOT YOU).

This thread isn't for our discussion. Rather, if for each of us who is Christian to suggest to the OP what steps of resolution he/she might take.

Please don't get in my face again about this, especially if you lean more charismatic in your interpretations AND you don't really understand my background or what I'm saying to the other person.


Thanks.
 
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throughfierytrial

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I don't think you actually understood much of what I was implying to the OP (i.e. NOT YOU).

This thread isn't for our discussion. Rather, if for each of us who is Christian to suggest to the OP what steps of resolution he/she might take.

Please don't get in my face again about this, especially if you lean more charismatic in your interpretations AND you don't really understand my background or what I'm saying to the other person.


Thanks.
Ouch!!! Apologies
 
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