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baptism necessary to be saved???

Discussion in 'Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)' started by Galadriel, Jul 8, 2003.

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  1. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

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    NO, Jesus was presented in the Temple to fulfill the requirement of the law and to be redeemed which was the requirement under the law.


    The New Testament tells us that we are saved by grace... not by baptism.

    ~malaka~
     
  2. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
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    Since you've disputerd the meaning of Mark 16:16, let's go through the verse piece by piece and look for the true meaning.

    Mark 16:16a ASV

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

    By removing the dependent clause in this sentence we arrive at this verse in its simplest form: "He shall be saved."

    So our question now is who shall be saved. Is it he that believeth alone? No. Is it he that is baptized? No. The person in this sentence who shall be saved is "he who believeth and is baptized.

    The word "and" in this sentence serves as a coordinating conjuntion, or a word that join together words or word groups. Joined together means just that, they have become linked and are inseperable.

    This sentence as a whole is a complex sentence, and is classified logically as a conjunction (not to be confused with the grammatical function). A conjunction is a complex sentence that is true if and only if each of its components are true. The end result of this sentence is that one is saved. This can be true if and only if each of the components of the sentence are true. What are the components? Belief and baptism.

    In case you like math better than language (some people do :) ) this sentence has set up the following equation:

    Belief + Baptism = saved

    Mark 16:16b ASV

    ; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

    The two halves of this verse are separated by a semicolon. A semicolon is a punctuation mark that serves as a coordinating function. This means simply that it joins the two halves of the verse together forming a much larger logical statement. There has been established three boolean conditions with two possible outcomes, being saved or being condemned, and remember, the first two are conjoined and must both be true in order to be saved. When we consider John 3:36 (it's the most popular example) we can understand belief and obedience as being inseperable:

    John 3:36 ASV

    He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    We therefore have the following:

    belief (includes obedience) + baptism = salvation

    disbelief = disobedience

    belief /= (does not equal) belief + baptism

    belief alone /= salvation

    belief alone = disobedience (baptism is a command) = condemned

    baptism alone /= belief + baptism

    baptism alone /= salvation

    baptism alone = disobedience = condemnation

    baptism + disbelief /= belief + baptism

    baptism + disbelief = disobedience = condemnation

    From this verse, the only way that one is capable of being saved is by believing and being baptized. This has been concluded by going through the verse, word by word, phrase by phrase. And this does harmonize with the rest of the Scriptures (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Matthew 28:19, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:26, Romans 6, James 2:24, 1 Peter 3:21, 1 Corinthians 6:11, just to name a few)

    I will handle the second half of your post in just a moment in another reply, as I want this one to be separate to emphasize the the information provided.
     
  3. CrossMovement

    CrossMovement Active Member

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    If you walk with God you have an hint If you believe in him and you can get baptism , you'll be saved , it is says that baptism is necessary for Salvation. (But we must always obey him and not say to ourselve that because I am baptize that it is a done thing , we must continue to walk with him)
     
  4. CrossMovement

    CrossMovement Active Member

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    Why did Mark who is in the NT says Mark 16:16a ASV

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

    The thief on the cross is to show that if you really can't get baptize but if you would have the chance to do it , the first thing you would do would be to go get baptize.

    I did not quote an Ot verse there , I provide you a NT verse to try to make it clear.
     
  5. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Brass tacks it is then :)

    Prove it. Prove that the ending that you will find in your Bible is not the one written by Mark. What you are claiming is that God is unable to provide us with His word. These are the brass tacks.

    What you have basically said is that Mark 16:16 doesn't agree with what you want the Bible to say. It is very clear from other passages in the Bible, especially 1 Peter 3:21 which actually comes out and says that baptism saves us, that Mark 16:16 does not conflict with the entirety of scripture, but rather it harmonizes perfectly with the sum of God's word.

    There has been some dispute because the ending that you find in your Bible to Mark is not in the codex vaticanus - however, if you are going to exclude Mark 16:16 on that basis then you had better be willing to leave out the following as well: 1 Peter, 2 Peter, James, Jude, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John and Revelation.

    There are, however, other papyrii that date back further than the codex vaticanus that include some of these letters, and there are later codices that contain the books as well. God is capable of providing us with His word, which we have fully revealed in the Bible, and of which Mark 16:16 is part.

    You are not handling snames and drinking poison because those gifts are no longer needed. Let's look at the text that you are disputing and see what it says was the purpose of those gifts:

    Mark 16:17-20 ASV

    And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.

    The signs were given that men might know that the word the Apostles and other Christians were preaching was the truth. It is imperative that you remember that at this point in history the full revelation was not yet available, meaning that when something was revealed there needed to be proof that it was from God. This is the purpose of the signs that are listed Mark 16. Since you are not receiving any revelation, it has once and for all been delivered to the saints, there is no reason for you to have any of the gifts that are listed.
     
  6. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian

    All the above is God's responsiblity to make sure THE ELECT ARE OBEIDANT

    John 1:11-12
    John 6:29
    Romans 9:11
     
  7. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

    +25
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    lesson 1. The original manuscripts were not divided into chapters and verses.

    lesson 2. The original manuscripts do not have punctuation.

    lesson 3. Therefore, it is usually not a good practice to rely on what man added to the Word of God as a determination of what God meant to say.


    The Bible says you are saved by faith... teaching that baptism is a requirement of salvation is "preaching and teaching" a doctrine that is contrary to that basic belief of Christianity.

    I can't find a single passage that tells me that one is saved by works.

    ~malaka~
     
  8. Garbru

    Garbru New Member

    43
    +0
    If you believe in Jesus and love him.

    Just get baptized for heavens sake.
    end of story.
     
  9. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Malaka,

    Okay, what's your real point? Do you really want to discredit the entire bible, or just Mark 16:16?

    Mark 16:16 is just too easy to misinterpret (Aggie03 did an excellent job of breaking it down for you). And what you seem to be overlooking, is that it is not the only scripture emphasizing baptism (take a few minutes and looks back through some of the previous postings).

    I agree. The bible says that we are saved by faith. Does it say that we are saved by faith ALONE? I believe I have asked that question before. I have yet to get receive an answer. Perhaps you have the scripture that I have overlooked? Where exactly is the scripture that says we are saved by faith ALONE, or by faith ONLY?

    Your quote:
    "I can't find a single passage that tells me that one is saved by works."

    My response:
    Really? Have you not read James 2:14,17,24,20-21, and especially vs.24?

    If works are not necessary, then faith is not necessary. Did you catch that point? Just to make sure that you grasped it, here it goes again . . . If works are not necessary, then faith is not necessary!!! Why? Because faith itself is a work!!! Consider: John 6:28-29 "Then they said to Him, 'What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

    Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mk. 16:16. Rather than accept what the verse says, you have attempted to discredit it. Then you attempted to discredit the whole bible. What can you discredit next that will help promote salvation by faith only?

    Point of interest: Do we really have the original manuscripts? Just in case you don't know, the answer is NO WE DON'T.

    FC
     
  10. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
     
  11. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    To All Readers,

    There has been quite a bit of discussion the past few hours about whether or not baptism is required for salvation. As I review many of the points made, I am seeing a lot of opinions being offered, and very few scriptural references. 1 Peter 4:11 says, "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God." In essence, we need to have a book, chapter, and verse to for what we promote.

    I don't often use stories that are not strictly scripturally related, but when I saw this quote on a website, I thought that it might help some of you consider salvation through Jesus.

    Here goes:
    "The question as to which single characteristic saves the man is an abstraction. An illustration is helpful. A man who has fallen into the river screams for help. A man on the bank runs with a rope and throws it to the man in the river. He catches hold and is pulled to safety. What saved him? Was it his scream. Was it the rope? Was it the man on the bank? Did he save himself? Or was it all of these working together?"

    Has anyone found that scripture yet that says we are saved by faith ALONE, or by faith ONLY?

    I'm waiting . . . . . .

    FC
     
  12. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Yes, I have read Rom. 4:13-17. Many times.
    But I read it again - just because you asked me about it? Just so that I'm not missing something while I read it, why don't you comment on the verses so I can understand what I'm missing. Is Rom.4:13-17 the passage that says that we are saved by faith ALONE. If it is, I sure missed it. Perhaps you could point it out for me.

    Faith is not something that God does for us in Jn. 6:29. Jesus was asked the question in vs. 28, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus' reply was not, "You don't have to do anything, God does it all." Rather, his reply was, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." In answering their question ("What shall we do?), Jesus reply is to have faith in him. Faith is something we do, not some work God does for us! (Jesus said, "For if "you" do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" - John 8:24.) The work of God, or the work God would have us do, is to believe in his Son. Acceptable faith is an obedient faith. Those who claim faith, and have no works of obedience, have the faith of the "demons" (NKJV) in James 2:19. Obedience is necessary - Heb. 5:8-9.

    You say that baptism in water is man's work. Really? All indications are that Luke wrote the book of Acts. In Acts 8:35-39, Luke clearly recorded that Philip preached Jesus - vs. 35. Then the eunuch inquired about baptism. Did he desire Holy Spirit baptism or to be baptized in water? The eunuch said, "See, here is water" - vs.36. Then Luke records that Philip and the eunuch went down into the water - vs. 38, and came up out of the water - vs. 39. I really don't think it should be terribly hard from the context to determine that the eunuch was baptized in water, not the Holy Spirit. So, if water baptism is by man, then was Philip in error when he "preached Jesus," or was Luke in error by writing an erroneous record of the event that really took place?

    Brethren, you are starting to use some scripture with your replies. That is a step in the right direction. The challenge for you now is to study them thoroughly before throwing them into the midst of a discussion. Rom. 9:11 is an example. I recall you commenting that there was no baptism there. Remember? Did you even consider that Rom. 9:11 is talking about Rebecca and Isaac's unborn children Esau and Jacob? No, without studying the passage in its context, you grabbed it because it appeared on the surface to offer a defense to the point you are trying to make! What a convincing argument - - salvation by faith alone is justified because Esau and Jacob didn't have to be baptized before they were born!!!

    Do you really hope that I learn more about grace? Why not teach me? I thought I understood 3 basic facts about grace:
    1.) Grace has been extended to all men - Titus 2:11.
    2.) All men will not be saved - Matt. 7:13-14.
    3.) Therefore, there must be more involved in salvation than just grace.
    What have I missed?

    Remember, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mk. 16:16. Just a reminder, the passage doesn't go away just because you refuse to accept it!

    FC
     
  13. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

    +25
    Non-Denom

    and if we did have the original manuscripts... you would argue that they aren't in English. or that it wasn't a pure translation....


    And BTW... we no longer know if we have the original manuscripts... P52 is the oldest manuscript/fragment know today, and the latest I have read on p52 places it within 20 years of the time that the text of John was written. Do you think a manuscript dating could be off + or - 20 years?

    I think it could. After all P52 has been preserved for 1900 years. How do you know that P52 isn't an original manuscript?

    You don't.

    ~malaka~
     
  14. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

    +25
    Non-Denom





    Thus far, there are actually nine endings to the Gospel of Mark from different manuscripts.



    1. There is the short form, Mark 1-8



    2. There is the intermediate form, Mark 16:1-8 plus

    "And all that had been commanded them they told briefly to those around Peter. And afterward Jesus himself sent out through them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."




    3. There is the long form, Mark 16:1-8 plus
    Mark 9-20

    Version A
    9 Now after he arose early on the first day of the week, he appeared firt to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
    10 She went out and told those who had been with him, while they were mourning and weeping
    11 But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they wold not believe it.
    12 After this he appeared in another form to two of the, as they were walking into the country.
    13 And they went back and told the rest, but they did not beliee thm.
    14 Later he appered to the eleven themselves as they wer sitting at the talbe; and he upbraided them for their lack of faith and stubbornness, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
    15 And he said to them, :/Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation.
    16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
    17 And these signs will accompany those who believe" by uing my name they will cst out demons; they will speak in new tongues
    18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.
    19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to the, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
    20 And they went out and procleaimed the good news everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that accompanied it.





    Version B

    Version A plus a critical note.

    There is the expanded long form

    Mark 16:1-14 plus

    "And they excused themselves, saying "This age of lawlessness and ubelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits. Therefoe, reveal your righteousness now"--thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, "The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was handed over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more, that they may inherit the spiritual and imperishable glory of righteousness that is in heaven."


    plus Mrk 16:15-20


    Also, the combination form,

    4 versions.


    Mark 16:1-8 plus critical note "This also is in circulation"

    Mark 16:1-8 plus intermediate ending

    Mark 16:1-8 plus critical note "This also is in cerculation after "hey were afraid."

    Mark 16:1-8 plus 9-20 from from 3.

    ************************



    textual criticisms agree that the short form outweighs the long form, but both forms are early manuscripts with an indecisive ending.





    The long form has an irregular transition. The subject of verse 8 is women fleeing the tomb, the subject of verse 9 is "he" arose, and he cannot be identified from the text.

    Mary Magdelene is re-introduced in verse 9 as "from whom he had cast out seven demons" when she was already introduced in 15:40, 47.

    Seventeen words of the long passage do not occur elsewhere in the Gospel of Mark. The style is different. Mark consistently uses immediately and again throughout his writing, and they are never used in the long form.

    However, usually the earliest recoverable ending is considered the closest to true translation. The text of Mark14:28 identifies that there is more to come and without the ending of 9-20, the prophecy is not fulfilled.


    Most critics agree that the short form outweights the evidence for the long form.


    17 words or phrases in Mark 16:9-20 do not occur elsewhere in Mark or a different understanding is taken. "deadly" and "they will recover" do not show up anywhere else in the New Testament. The transitional words that Mark uses regularly are not used in the (9-20) passage.


    Verses 9-20 appear to have been tacked on (by reference to the written evidences of the church fathers and manuscript studies) sometime in the second century.


    ~malaka~


    edited to add color to the quotes.
     
  15. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

    +25
    Non-Denom

    Luke 7:50

    And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
     
  16. RaptureTicketHolder

    RaptureTicketHolder Selectively Agreeable

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    I can not agree that baptism is necessary to salvation, but the conversation is interesting nontheless.



    In reference to this, you might want to give some thought to what scripture does not say about the people who died in the flood and in Sodom.
     
  17. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Wrong covenant. I will give you credit for being the only person who has tried so far though :) (I'm being serious, most people have just ignored the request to present scripture supporting that argument)
     
  18. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Malaka,

    Just a quick post.

    Your question:
    What happens to babies when they die?
    and "I don't know" won't work for someone who is posting that baptism is a requirement to make heaven.

    Response:

    Mk 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." The requirement is not simply to be baptized. The requirement is both to believe and be baptized. If babies are capable of believing in Jesus, they should be baptized. If babies are not capable of belief, they cannot be baptized (at least scripturally, or with God's approval).

    Acts 2:38 "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized." The command is not just to be baptized. The command is to both to repent and be baptized. If babies have sins to repent of, then they need to turn from them (which is what repentance means) and be baptized.

    Now, are there any examples or inferences that babies were baptized into Christ in the N.T.? None that I can find. Note: babies do not inherit the sins of their parents (or past relatives) - Ezekiel 18:19-20. Sin is not an inherited trait. The babies that die are innocent before God. Only when those babies grow up, mature, and then violate the laws of God will they need to believe in the Lord Jesus, repent of their sins, confess Jesus as Lord, be baptized into Christ, and be faithful to him for the rest of their lives.

    Now, do you have any more angles you would like pursue to attempt to discredit baptism? Thus far, you have attempted to have us disregard Mk. 16:16, disregard the whole bible (after all, your point was that the translators put in all the punctuation points, so we don't really know how accurate any of it is), and now your reasoning seems to be that baptism cannot be necessary for salvation because the babies that die would then be lost (which is not true). What angle is next?

    As Ananias told Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of Lord."
    - Acts 22:16

    Malaka, what are you waiting for?

    FC
     
  19. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Malaka,

    You responded to my request for a scripture that teaches salvation by faith ONLY, or faith ALONE with the following scripture:

    Luke 7:50
    And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

    My response:
    I still don't see the word "ONLY" or "ALONE" coupled with faith. You imply that it is there. What I read is that faith saved her. My question is: Did her faith prompt her to do something in the context of the passage? Start at vs. 36 (of Luke 7) and read the rest of that chapter. That woman acted on her faith. That is how faith saves. That is how Abraham's works saved him; he acted on his faith - James 2:21-24.

    True faith in the Lord prompts us to obey his word - Matt. 7:21. What would faith prompt one to do when they hear the command, "Repent, and . . . be baptized for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38? Does faith prompt one to ignore the command? No. Does faith prompt one to go to great lengths to discredit the verse? No. Faith prompts one to obey the command!

    I'm still waiting for the scripture that says we saved by faith ONLY, or by faith ALONE.

    FC
     
  20. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

    +25
    Non-Denom
    Obviously, from your posting, only certain people must be baptized to make heaven.... but not all.


    ~malaka~
     
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