baptism necessary to be saved???

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

question do you two believe that Jesus is alive today in the flesh? ............

 

[Serapha]

Florida College....


If you want a debate, there is a forum for such postings..... If you need someone to show you where it is, then go to the apologetic board, and there is a thread that can be opened to post the challenge.


I hope you don't mind if I pass on your challenge, though...

Do you think you can "perform" when the rules are established in advance and apply to both sides of the discussion?




~malaka~

 

[Florida College]

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

"Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

"For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection,"

"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

"For he who has died has been freed from sin."

"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,"

"knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him."

"For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, He lives to God."

"Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 3:3, 4, 5, & Romans 6:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

question do you two believe that Jesus is alive today in the flesh? ............

florida are you going to answer? aggie?

 

[Florida College]

"If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified."

"But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters."

"Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter."

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."

"Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"

1 Peter 4:14, 15, 16 ; 2 Timothy 3:12 ; Galatians 4:16

 

[aggie03]

florida are you going to answer? aggie?

What do you mean by your question? Do you mean present on earth in a human body?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

once again florida no response

aggie takes the high road...

ok since his resurection do you believe that Christ is in the flesh right now on the right hand of the Father..and will return in the flesh

 

[Florida College]

Brethren,

The answer is NO.

FC

 

[Florida College]

Florida College....


If you want a debate, there is a forum for such postings..... If you need someone to show you where it is, then go to the apologetic board, and there is a thread that can be opened to post the challenge.


I hope you don't mind if I pass on your challenge, though...

Do you think you can "perform" when the rules are established in advance and apply to both sides of the discussion?




~malaka~

Malaka,

I feel that a reply is in order, but I struggle for the right words to lead this discussion in the right direction. Most of us realize that there are many things in life that we would like to see. Some of those things come true: some do not. This is a simple fact of life. Whether or not you see me enter into a debate will be based strictly upon what I consider to be beneficial for the cause of Christ - - after prayer and careful meditation. Ultimately, that decision will be one that I make (with the Lord’s help) - -not one that you make for me.

I am concerned by the nature of your comments, that your real desire is just to see someone turn all my points of reasoning around and make me look foolish. If I am teaching error, then that would be an excellent outcome. Truth must prevail. The relevant questions are: “At this point, are you really interested in truth?” “Or, are you more interested in seeing someone put me in my proper place (whatever that is in your mind)?”

Concerning your points about whether or not I’m fair with the reasoning I use, allow me just a moment to to explain my rationale. I stand opposed to salvation by “faith only.” Leave absolutely no doubt in your mind, that is my position. This doctrine is one of the biggest hindrances I’ve encountered while trying to convert people to Christ. To help those who are studying the bible, I try to show that “faith only” does not harmonize with other scripures. (“Faith only” overlooks other commands that are necessary for salvation - - commands to repent, confess Jesus, and to be baptized.) Many times, bible students are so convinced that the bible says that we are saved by “faith alone,” that it becomes necessary to use a different way of reasoning to capture their attention. Then it becomes time to ask for the scripture that says we are saved by faith “ONLY,” or by faith “ALONE.” (Of all the scriptures that teach the necessity of faith under the law of Christ, I am aware of none that contain these words. The only passage I find that couples “FAITH” and “ONLY” is in James 2:24 - - a scripture that MUST be considered as we view the “sum of God’s word” - - aggie03’s terminology). When it is then realized that no passages say faith “ONLY” or faith “ALONE, ” then those who persist with the “faith only” doctrine are compelled to reason that it is implied - - or it is a necessary inference. If the word “ONLY” or “ALONE” is necessarily inferred in a passage like John. 3:16 or Roman 4:5, then the conclusion must be that salvation comes by faith alone. Then the dilemma caused by “faith only” must be addressed - - why faith becomes the sole requirement or command to be obeyed and other relevant commands do not have to be obeyed?

From previous comments, you concluded that I was teaching that there was no possibility that the word “ONLY” or “ALONE” could be implied or be a necessary inference. I don’t believe that is what I said; I understand that in some places these words are implied. If I gave you the impression that they are never implied, then let’s clarify that misunderstanding right now. They can be implied - - but NOT always necessarily so. My point is that IF, and I do mean IF, they are implied, there MUST BE HARMONY, or agreement, with other scriptures. Here is an implication or necessary inference to consider - - what it means to preach Jesus. In Acts 8:35 the scripture says that Philip preached “Jesus.” No details are given of what he specifically taught. But the eunuch’s response implies or infers that baptism (in water) was involved with preaching Jesus vs. 36-39. That understanding agrees, or harmonizes, with Acts 2:38 (repentance + baptism = remission of sins) and with Mark 16:16 (belief + baptism = salvation).

To conclude, I stand opposed to salvation in Christ Jesus by “faith only” based on two principles: no scripture says specifically that we are saved by faith “ALONE,” or by faith “ONLY;” and the “faith only” doctrine does not harmonize with the other scriptures that also must be considered - - Matthew 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38,41 ;
Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 10:48 ; Acts 9:17-18 & 22:16 ; Romans 6:3-11 ; Galatians 3:26-27 ; Colossians 2:12 ; 1 Peter 3:20-21.

FC

 

[Serapha]

Brethren,

The answer is NO.

FC

And in the words of the resurrected Christ....

Lu 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

and the words of Paul who saw the resurrected Christ....

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.



~malaka~

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren,

The answer is NO.

FC

1 john 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God 3 And every spirit that confesseth that not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, where of ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 john 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not of Jesus is come in the flesh. this is a deceiver an a antichrist.

2 john 10 if there come any unto you, and bring this doctrine, recieve him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

And in the words of the resurrected Christ....

Lu 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

and the words of Paul who saw the resurrected Christ....

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.



~malaka~

God is spirit according to John 4:24

But Jesus Christ is God man thus he is flesh

look up above to response to florida .... that is your response still???

 

[Florida College]

Malaka,

I could use some clarification from a previous discussion? Do you trust the punctuation points in these two verses sufficiently to know that the translators placed them in the proper places . . . or did the translators only mess up Mark 16:16? No, I don't expect you to anwer these questions in a posting . . . but I do want you to think about the responsibility of James 3:1.

Lk. 24:39 (& John 20:24-28) is an excellent verse to show the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in John 2:19.

I believe that Brethren's question was: "do you two believe that Jesus is alive today in the flesh? ............ And while I do indeed believe that Jesus resurrected his physical body, I do not think that this verse necessarily proves that he is still in the flesh today. NOTE: I do not speak for aggie03. He seems to do an excellent job of speaking for himself without my help.

Eph. 5:30 does indeed say, "For we are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones."
Consider also:

"Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you will have no life in you."

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

These scriptures (Eph. 5:30 & Jn. 6:53-56) have similar language. Study them in their context and learn what they mean. HINT: The first question you might want to ask yourself is, are the passages using literal or figurative language?

Post again if you need some help.

My answer to Brethren's question is still NO.

"For we walk by faith, not by sight"
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
(2 Corinthians 5:17 & Galatians 3:26-27)

FC

 

[Florida College]

Brethren,

I did not say said that Jesus never came in the flesh. He did. That was not your original question. Go back and look at your original question. Perhaps, you think you asked something different than what you did.

My answer is No to your original question.

FC

 

[Serapha]

Malaka,

I could use some clarification from a previous discussion? Do you trust the punctuation points in these two verses sufficiently to know that the translators placed them in the proper places or did the translators only mess up Mark 16:16? No, I don't expect you to anwer these questions in a posting . . . but I do want you to think about the responsibility of James 3:1.

Lk. 24:39 (& John 20:24-28) is an excellent verse to show the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in John 2:19.

I believe that Brethren's question was: "do you two believe that Jesus is alive today in the flesh? ............ And while I do indeed believe that Jesus resurrected his physical body, I do not think that this verse necessarily proves that he is still in the flesh today. NOTE: I do not speak for aggie03. He seems to do an excellent job of speaking for himself without my help.

Eph. 5:30 does indeed say, "For we are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones."
Consider also:

"Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you will have no life in you."

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

These scriptures (Eph. 5:30 & Jn. 6:53-56) have similar language. Study them in their context and learn what they mean. HINT: The first question you might want to ask yourself is, are the passages using literal or figurative language?

Post again if you need some help.

My answer to Brethren's question is still NO.

"For we walk by faith, not by sight"
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
(2 Corinthians 5:17 & Galatians 3:26-27)

FC

the following sarcastic comments will not be addressed.


1) "Do you trust the punctuation points in these two verses sufficiently to know that the translators placed them in the proper places"


2) "or did the translators only mess up Mark 16:16? "

3) " No, I don't expect you to anwer these questions in a posting . . ."

4) " NOTE: I do not speak for aggie03. He seems to do an excellent job of speaking for himself without my help. "

5) "Study them in their context and learn what they mean. HINT: The first question you might want to ask yourself is, are the passages using literal or figurative language? "


6) "Post again if you need some help."



My brother in Christ, when you learn how to talk to people in a civil manner... come back for that discussion..... I am not on this forum simply to be the recipient of your sarcastic remarks.... maybe other want to participate in your volleying remarks.... but I don't.


when I take out your sarcasm... this is what is left...



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Malaka,

I could use some clarification from a previous discussion? but I do want you to think about the responsibility of James 3:1.

Lk. 24:39 (& John 20:24-28) is an excellent verse to show the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in John 2:19.

I believe that Brethren's question was: "do you two believe that Jesus is alive today in the flesh? ............ And while I do indeed believe that Jesus resurrected his physical body, I do not think that this verse necessarily proves that he is still in the flesh today.


Eph. 5:30 does indeed say, "For we are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones."
Consider also:

"Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you will have no life in you."

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

These scriptures (Eph. 5:30 & Jn. 6:53-56) have similar language. HINT: The first question you might want to ask yourself is, are the passages using literal or figurative language?



My answer to Brethren's question is still NO.



~~~~~~~~~



Now, we are back on track for the question as posted. You do not believe that Jesus Christ is now in a resurrected flesh and bone body even though the Word of God testifies to that fact.


~malaka~

 

[Florida College]

Malaka,

Your quote:
My brother in Christ, when you learn how to talk to people in a civil manner... come back for that discussion..... I am not on this forum simply to be the recipient of your sarcastic remarks.... maybe other want to participate in your volleying remarks.... but I don't.

My response:
It is obvious that you have developed a major problem with me. I can live with that. Can you? After you stripped away my supposed sarcasm, you found nothing left in the memo. Did you not read the scriptures that were quoted word for word from the NKJV - John 6:53-56? Is your real problem just with me? . . . or with the scriptures that don't necessarily agree with something that you already have in mind? . . . or both?

I still suggest that you go back and study Eph. 5:30. Study the context, and learn the language. This is something you will have to do for yourself. At this point, it really wouldn't matter what I said to you, now would it?

The question that Brethren posted - - the one that we are discussing now - - is not related at all to the necessity of baptism. Perhaps there is another thread that needs to be opened where this issue can be discussed.

Other readers:
Consider the Bereans. "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the scriptures daily to find out whether these things [Paul and Silas' teaching] were so." Acts 17:11

"Then those who gladly received his word were baptized." Acts 2:41

FC

 

[western kentucky]

Malaka,

To get back on topic....

You believe that a person is saved by "faith only." Correct??????

Well.... Please explain

John 12:42-43: Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

James 2:19: You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Is faith alone all that is required?? Did the rulers have faith?

vs 42 - "Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him (...)."

Did "faith alone" save the rulers????

vs 43 - For they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will recieve the gift of the holy spirit.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

My brother in Christ, when you learn how to talk to people in a civil manner.... come back for that discussion..... I am not on this forum simply to be the recipient of your sarcastic remarks.... maybe other want to participate in your volleying remarks.... but I don't.


I believe that Brethren's question was: "do you two believe that Jesus is alive today in the flesh? ............ And while I do indeed believe that Jesus resurrected his physical body, I do not think that this verse necessarily proves that he is still in the flesh today.

then you are an antichrist according to the verse not my words but God's

check out Matt 23 how Jesus talks to the pharisees

 

[Blindfaith]

I'm closing this thread. There's nothing edifying about it in the least.