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baptism necessary to be saved???

Discussion in 'Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)' started by Galadriel, Jul 8, 2003.

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  1. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Your comment: Matt 7: is talking about people who think the have to work for salvation

    My comment: Matthew 7: 21-23 is not talking about people who think they have to work for salvation. The Lord says what they lacked was that they did not do God's will (or works of obedience). They acted outside of the law - - that is, they did not do what God required them to do in his law. Those who cling to the "faith only" doctrine ignore the commands and examples that stress the importance of , not only baptism, but repentance and confession also. This is lawlessness. Lawlessness is not acceptable to God.

    Your quote:
    God has done all the work for are salvation

    My comment:
    Why not harmonize whatever passage it is that you think says that Gods does it all for salvation with Philippians 2:12?

    I have asked before for your understanding of Romans 9:11. You have used this verse to suggest that baptism is not necessary, and that God's election (predestination) is set; God does it all; it really doesn't matter what we do. I think I have been rather patient with you - - this verse is speaking of Rebecca and Jacob's sons, Esau and Jacob. While it is true that Esau and Jacob did not have to be baptized before they were born, and it is true that God chose Jacob, the younger brother, to rule over the older brother, what does either fact have anything to do with determining what is necessary for our salvation today? You obviously are loaded up with information on this topic that I do not have. Enlighten me!

    Since you promote salvation by faith only, tell me why we do not have to obey the commands to repent of sins? (see Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 8:22 ; Acts 17:30) I would like to see you harmonize the passage that teaches salvation by faith only (??????) with these passages that stress the necessity to repent.

    FC
     
  2. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    first of all God the Father in Eph 1:4 chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world

    this is done by grace which is undeserved thus when we realize that the Trinity all has a part in are salvation .... You have a problem with a person choice ...Even though Job had a choice was it to be obedient or disciplined not over salvation read God still Got him to do Eph 2:10

    thus are salvation is Only God's work according to John 6:29 and it is according to Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God. yet you argue that we must be baptized we are by the Holy Spirit and thus it is not seen but still Done 1 cor 12:13 ......

    In titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he save us,....................

    by being obedieant by doing water baptism ...I think that is a work of righteousness but still that would not save us but just save us from Hebrews 12:6-11 which God promises if we are son's and are not obedient he will punish you severly.....it is a promise.......

    But I have given this to you many times BUT WE MUST DO WHAT TO BE SAVED.....you keep saying .....BUT GOD SAID THIS IS GOD"S WORK {NOT YOURS} understood in context John 6:29

    DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT CHRIST 27 WORKS ON THE CROSS SATISFIED EVERY THING FOR ARE SALVATION ? IF NOT WHY?

    Do you believe that Jesus is alive to day IN THE FLESH ......? ACCORDING TO 2 JOHN 7.....





    DO YOU NOT KNOW OF THE hOLY sPIRITS 7 WORKS THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES FOR ARE SALVATION?
    2 THES 2:1-2 RESTRAINING
    jOHN 16:7-11 REPROVING
    ACTS 11:15-18 bAPTISING
    1 COR 12:12-13 rEGENERATION
    gAL 3:3:2-5, 1 COR 12:13 iNDWELLING
    ePH 1:13 SEALING
    EPH 5:18 FILLING

    i KNOW YOU WILL WANT TO ARGUE BUT ONCE AGAIN i HAVE SENT THESE VERSE BUT YOU WERE BLINDED ONCE HOPEFULLY THE hOLY sPIRIT WILL ENLIGHTEN YOU 1 COR 2:10
     
  3. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    Again, I will not respond to this post at great length because it was addressed to Florida College, but there are a couple of things that I could not let go unchecked should some curious reader be perusing this thread.

    Your failure to understand the true context of John 6 is a major cause for your not believing the Truth concerning what it says about baptism.

    John 6:26-29 ASV

    Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. (27) Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. (28) They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    In this passage Jesus tells the Jews that they must work. What must they work for? That which the Son of man shall give unto them, namely their salvation.

    Does this mean that anything old thing will do? No, Christ tells them that they must work the work of God. What is working the work of God? Believing on the one whom God sent, namely Christ.

    When you consider the verse that you have been quoting in its proper context, there is really no dispute as to what is meant - the Jews have been told to work the work of God. This is something that they must do, not something that is done for them.

    The second thing which I feel must be addressed is that you have called Florida College blind, and necessarily through extension me as well. I have never belittled you or thrown any insults in your direction. I don't think that conducive to the end for which we are working: a better understanding and knowledge of the Truth. It is necessary at time to point out where you believe that someone might be mistaken, but to hurl insults and derogatory comments is no great thing and is contrary to our point for being here. Just because you have a phrase from scripture quoted in your negative remarks, does not make them right.

    A brethren, one last thing that I would like to point out, is that you have still falied to properly address any of the points that we have presented, while we constantly endeavor to fully harmonize the ones that you have presented. There are passages that appear to be contradictory in the Scriptures if they are ripped from their context, thus disregarding their original intent. It takes no great effort to throw verses at an opponent, but it does to address the things that they present with a logical thought out process. I believe that until you start replying in full to the thoughts, logic, and harmonization that we have presented, none of us will be able to glean anything useful from this exchange.

    It is not my intent to belittle anyone, or degrade any person :). I have rather enjoyed the discussion that we've had up until this point :). I would only ask that the points which are addressed are dealt with in full, rather than being tossed aside with a single reference and no discussion. I will admit that on occassion I tend to be guilty of this as well.

    With that said, I am going to leave for this evening's worship service. I pray that you all have had a wonderful Lord's Day and have worshipped the Lord God in a manner that is well pleasing in His sight, that is, according to His word.
     
  4. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian

    DITTO TO YOU TOO...
     
  5. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    In the midst of your ramblings, you somehow forgot to answer any of the questions that you were asked. So, here they are again:

    My comment:
    Why not harmonize whatever passage it is that you think says that Gods does it all for salvation with Philippians 2:12?

    I have asked before for your understanding of Romans 9:11. You have used this verse to suggest that baptism is not necessary, and that God's election (predestination) is set; God does it all; it really doesn't matter what we do. I think I have been rather patient with you - - this verse is speaking of Rebecca and Jacob's sons, Esau and Jacob. While it is true that Esau and Jacob did not have to be baptized before they were born, and it is true that God chose Jacob, the younger brother, to rule over the older brother, what does either fact have anything to do with determining what is necessary for our salvation today? You obviously are loaded up with information on this topic that I do not have. Enlighten me!

    Since you promote salvation by faith only, tell me why we do not have to obey the commands to repent of sins? (see Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 8:22 ; Acts 17:30) I would like to see you harmonize the passage that teaches salvation by faith only (??????) with these passages that stress the necessity to repent.

    Additional thoughts:
    "Let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." - James 3:1 Teachers carry a dual responsibility: they are responsible for not only what they believe, but for what they teach others to believe.

    Brethren, If indeed I am blind, then enlighten me.
    Here's an opportunity.
    Your quote:
    "In titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he save us,...................."
    My response:
    Excellent verse. Are you suggesting that this verse tells us that we don't have to obey God's commands (i.e. repentance - Lk. !3:3 ; confession - Matt. 10:32-33 ; & baptism - Acts 2:38)?

    Brethren, have you ever heard of a red herring?

    FC
     
  6. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Your quote:
    thus are salvation is Only God's work according to John 6:29 and it is according to Eph 2:8 For by
    grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God. yet you argue that we must be baptized we are by the Holy Spirit and thus it is not seen but still Done 1 cor 12:13 ......

    My response:
    Please harmonize 1 Corinthians 12:13 with Acts 8: 35-39. I need some help understanding how the baptism that is required under the gospel of Christ is by the Holy Spirit, and not in water.

    You will help me, won't you?
    "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." - 1 Peter 3:15

    FC
     
  7. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Your quote:
    DITTO TO YOU TOO...

    My response:
    What a powerful argument!!! Very convincing!!!
    It is encouraging to see such excellent use of scripture. Thanks for sharing this deep insight into scripture with all of us!!!

    FC
     
  8. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Your quote:
    DO YOU NOT KNOW OF THE hOLY sPIRITS 7 WORKS THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES FOR ARE SALVATION?
    2 THES 2:1-2 RESTRAINING
    jOHN 16:7-11 REPROVING
    ACTS 11:15-18 bAPTISING
    1 COR 12:12-13 rEGENERATION
    gAL 3:3:2-5, 1 COR 12:13 iNDWELLING
    ePH 1:13 SEALING
    EPH 5:18 FILLING

    My response:
    One of the verses you listed was Acts 11:15-18. In these verses, Peter is explaining the events of chapter 10 to Jewish Christians who were not there to witness what transpired. Are you saying that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is required for salvation? If so, please harmonize your answer with Acts 8:35-39?

    FC
     
  9. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian


    This is talking about Present tense salvation after believing because there is going to be tribulations James 1:2 and other trials 8:35

    Philippians were already saved in belief

    FUTURE SALVATION IS WHEN WE ARE PERFECTED 1THES 5:23



    rOMANS 9:8 CHILDREN OF THE FLESH AND CHILDREN OF gOD.
    TALKS ABOUT AN EXAMPLE IN 9:10
    THEN CONTINUES IN VS 11 ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND , NOT OF WORKS , BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH ....


    SO IF HE DID IT THEN HE DOES IT NOW...


    PRESENT TENSE SALAVTION


    DIFFERENCE OF INTIAL SALVATION OF GOD PUTTING US INTO CHRIST

    VERSES PRESENT TENSE SALVATION WERE gOD GIVES US A CHOICE TO OBEY OR DISOBEY AND GET PUNISHED hEBREW 12:6-11

    RED HERRING ? NO
     
  10. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
     
  11. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    SARCASTIC AS ALWAYS
     
  12. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    IF THE HOLY SPIRIT AFTER CONVINCE YOU TO BELIEVE HE BAPTISES YOU INTO CHRIST BEFORE WATER BAPTISM ACCORDING TO 1 COR 12:13 WHAT PROBLEM DO YOU HAVE ?

    aCTS 8:35-39

    BELIEVER FROM TWO DIFFERENT DISPENSATIONS WHERE THE nATION OF iSRAEL WHERE DIRECTING THEIR FAITH ON THEIR PROMISES OF THE COVENANTS CROSSING OVER AND HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO CLAIM A BETTER PROMISE [HEBREWS 11:40] BEING GIVEN TO THE CHURCH
     
  13. Serapha

    Serapha Well-Known Member

    +26
    Non-Denom

    Take your abuse elsewhere.

    (two thumbs down)

    You and aggie03 are just looking for a "fight'... not a discussion of biblical teachings.

    end the thread... it's getting out of control.




    ~malaka~
     
  14. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Just a few quick thoughts.

    Your quotes:

    [relating to Philippians 2:12]This is talking about Present tense salvation after believing because there is going to be tribulations James 1:2 and other trials 8:35

    Philippians were already saved in belief

    FUTURE SALVATION IS WHEN WE ARE PERFECTED 1THES 5:23

    My thoughts:
    Where is the passage that says the Philippians were saved by belief?

    What is it that Christians have to do in the face of temptations and tribulations? You have said a number of times that God does it all; so, are you saying now that Christians have to do something? Isn't that salvation by works?

    My question from an earlier posting:
    Since you promote salvation by faith only, tell me why we do not have to obey the commands to repent of sins? (see Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 8:22 ; Acts 17:30)

    Your answer:
    PRESENT TENSE SALAVTION

    My thoughts:
    ???????? What are you trying to say? I need more words to fill in the blanks.

    From an earlier posting.
    Your quote:
    "In titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he save us,...................."

    My response:
    Excellent verse. Are you suggesting that this verse tells us that we don't have to obey God's commands (i.e. repentance - Lk. !3:3 ; confession - Matt. 10:32-33 ; & baptism - Acts 2:38)?

    Brethren, have you ever heard of a red herring?

    Your response:
    DIFFERENCE OF INTIAL SALVATION OF GOD PUTTING US INTO CHRIST

    VERSES PRESENT TENSE SALVATION WERE gOD GIVES US A CHOICE TO OBEY OR DISOBEY AND GET PUNISHED hEBREW 12:6-11

    RED HERRING ? NO

    My thoughts:
    How do we get into Christ? (Hint. Look in Galatians 3:27 - "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.")

    Are you saying that God gives us a choice as to whether or not we obey? How does that fit in with your idea of predestination?

    Concerning the 27 works of Jesus on the cross. I have never sat down and tried to list 27 specific things that Jesus accomplished on cross. Jesus accomplished many things on the cross. What specific thing do you think we are missing - - that relates to our current discussion - - the necessity of baptism?

    Concerning the red herring - - an example is in Matthew 12:1-24. It is a tactic used by those who cannot give an answer - - they change the topic, or verbally attack the other person. In this example, the Pharisees verbally attack Jesus because they cannot deny the obvious miracle, but refuse to accept him. Now what were you saying about my blindness? What was your reasoning?

    Closing thoughts:
    Acts 8:35-39. Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch. What baptism did the eunuch request . . . Holy Spirit . . . or in water?

    FC
     
  15. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    -
    There are Three Salvations Past Present and Future

    God does all 3 but in present tense salvation we have choices to obey or not but I am still saved to go to heaven if I disobey continuely God would just take me home[die] if I chose that road would I be a good example for other men ....NO yet still saved



    My question from an earlier posting:
    Since you promote salvation by faith only, tell me why we do not have to obey the commands to repent of sins? (see Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 8:22 ; Acts 17:30)

    Your answer:
    PRESENT TENSE SALAVTION

    My thoughts:
    ???????? What are you trying to say? I need more words to fill in the blanks.

    From an earlier posting.
    Your quote:
    "In titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he save us,...................."

    My response:
    Excellent verse. Are you suggesting that this verse tells us that we don't have to obey God's commands (i.e. repentance - Lk. !3:3 ; confession - Matt. 10:32-33 ; & baptism - Acts 2:38)? [/quote]

    Yes we do not have to Obey but one will recieve punishment till one does obey or until death Hebrews 12:6-11

    predestination is God putting us into Christ and sealing us unto perfection but in between their is different forms of maturity in Christ in john 15:1-14 and one can be fruitless in 2 peter 1:8 thus while being a carnal christian they are an enemy to God but still a son according to Gal 4:6-7 and since a son Hebrews 12:6-11


    if you want this list too long to write out for you PM me with your address I will send it to you no charge

    transition of 2 different dispensations



    red herring.. one can not work there way to heaven because man is unrighteous only by the Father Son and Holy Spirit is one saved and put in to Christ and made righteous but not from what we do BUT WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE AND WE BELIEVE

    Sorry if offended it is God's way to explain to me why you do not see it?
    4 blinds for unbeliever
    2 blinds for believers

    I do not know your case

    But I am GLad that you took it Personally because everyone should take their relationship with God personally

    But I know one thing ONE OF US IS WRONG Gal 4:4 one faith not two different ways
     
  16. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    A brethren, if you are capable of showing me scripturally that I have taken a passage out of context, or harmonized something incorrectly, then I will endeavor to correct my misunderstanding. I would only ask that you do the same.

    Malaka, I am not looking for a fight simply because I do not agree with you. I believe that I have been nothing but civil, and that is what I will continue to work toward as well. We are here to discuss the word of God, not to look for a fight :). I look forward to continued discussion with both of you, indeed with anyone who has questions about water baptism for the remission of sins being necessary for our salvation.
     
  17. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

    "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let everyone one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them."

    Acts 2:36, 37, 38, & 41
     
  18. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    "And he brought them out and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

    "So they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    "Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house."

    "And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized."

    "Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

    Acts 16: 30, 31, 32, 33 & Colossians 2:12
     
  19. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture [Isaiah 53:7,8] preached Jesus to him,"

    "Now as they went down the road, they came to some water, And the eunuch said, 'See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"

    "Then Philip said, 'If you believe with all your heart, you may.' And he answered and said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

    "So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him."

    "Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing."

    "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

    "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    Acts 8:35, 36, 37, 38, 39 & Galatians 3:27, 29
     
  20. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    "And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

    "Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized."

    "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

    "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

    Acts 9:17, 18 ; 22:16 ; & Mark 16:16
     
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