baptism necessary to be saved???

Status
Not open for further replies.

Galadriel

Lady of Light
Jun 24, 2003
1,895
84
40
USA
✟12,354.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am sure this has been mentioned before, I apoligize. I was wondering, and this is bugging me, is it absolutely necessary to be baptized to be saved? Will you go to hell if you are not baptized?? See, I was baptized at about 9, but I got saved later (about 17) so I have been baptized and saved, just in like reverse order! :angel: So then, am I not saved and going to hell due to this?

This verse in Mark gets me: 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemed." (Italics mine).

But then there is Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth , "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

This last verse doesn't say anything about baptism, so which is it? Had I better dash to my car, find a church lickety split, pray I don't get killed by a car on the way, and get baptized??
 

PuppyforChrist

Loyal and obedient to its Master
Jun 25, 2003
7,246
420
37
Pennsylvania
✟18,248.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
I wouldn't think you would go to Hell just because you did it in the reverse order. This is what I did too. I was baptized when I was born, but I got saved when I was 15. I think you are alright. As long as you are both baptized and saved you don't need to worry. It doesn't matter what order it's in. :)
 
Upvote 0

kimber1

mean people suck
Feb 25, 2003
13,092
810
53
Va.
Visit site
✟38,363.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
My question would be what denomination are you as some have different views on this. I'm Baptist and while we are taught it's not necessary to be baptized to be saved it is something you should do in obedience to God. I don't think according to what I have learned that you would go to hell from not being baptized after you were saved. The fact that you accepted Christ into your heart--that is your salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Galadriel

Lady of Light
Jun 24, 2003
1,895
84
40
USA
✟12,354.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see, thank you. :) I was figuring, it is probably an obedience to God, and it may matter when the crowns are given on judgement day, maybe those baptized get a crown, and those who didn't don't? That may be where this issue matters. But I agree, I don't think it is a requirement for salvation, but it is good to do I suppose. I am a Methodist, though I have been to a Baptist church for a time with my friend.

It does not say anywhere in scripture that those not baptized will not be saved and thus go to hell?
 
Upvote 0
Water Baptism Vs Spirit Baptism


Romans 6:3 Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized [put] into Jesus Christ were baptized [put] into His death.


Does any one see water ? NO

this is logically counted to us since we believed


Defintion of

Water Baptism = Visual show that man can see that you declare that you are Christs

Spirit Baptism = When the Spirit puts you in Christ and no one can see this that why it is called Faith Heb 11:1
 
Upvote 0
Galadriel said:
This verse in Mark gets me: 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemed." (Italics mine).

But then there is Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth , "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

This last verse doesn't say anything about baptism, so which is it? Had I better dash to my car, find a church lickety split, pray I don't get killed by a car on the way, and get baptized??


Galadriel,

A great question! Let me take a few lines here to weigh in on your issue. First of all, baptizm is not required for salvation... rather it is a personal choice we make after salvation (repentence) to obey Christ (Matt 28:19) and publicly demonstrate our commitment. In the book of Acts are several examples of situations where individuals were baptized following their conversions. A few examples:

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; ..."

Acts 8:36-39 "As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" And Phillip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." [not you have to] And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water; Phillip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water..."

Acts 9:18 "And immediately there fell from his [Saul, aka Paul] eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; ..." [This followed Saul's conversion on the Damascus road]

Acts 16:14,15 "... and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, ..."

Also, to continue the point regarding whether baptizm is required for salvation, consider the thief crucified beside Jesus on Calvary (see Luke 23:39-43), to whom Jesus said (after the thief testified that Jesus was innocent and asked Him to remember him after He came into His Kingdom), "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise." The thief admitted his belief in Jesus as God and Jesus saved him that day and promised to bring him into His kingdom. The thief was never baptized, but was know for sure he's in Heaven with Jesus!

Understand this... baptizm is a picture of what Jesus did for us (death, burial, resurrection) and is something an obedient Christian does following their conversion. It cannot possibly mean the same thing to the Lord if we were baptized as an infant (not our choice) as compared to our own personal choice to obey Him because we love Him and want to please Him with our obedience.

This is not an issue of legalism... rather, I'd much prefer to have my baptism on the correct side of my salvation since I believe that was what Jesus intended with His statement in Matt 28:19. Obeying what Jesus commands is not legalism, but a privilege and a joy!

If you aren't baptized after you're saved, will you go to heaven... certainly! But wouldn't you rather face Jesus knowing you'd chosen to obey Him and be baptized after your conversion?

Many denominations will differ with my comments, and that's fine. This is a non-salvation-related issue and is interesting to debate so long as we don't divide and become critical. Christ wants unity, and Christians can disagree on this issue without dividing on Christ!

Starbucksman
 
Upvote 0

Theresa

With Reason
Nov 27, 2002
7,866
198
46
✟24,289.00
Faith
Catholic
Can I respond, Galadriel? This one caught my eye, but I don't mean to chase you.

As always, this is a point of contention amongst Catholics and Protestants. For the first 1500 years there was no question that baptism was necessary, and also that infant baptism should be done. The only two questions raised were, should you wait until the eight days after a baby is born to baptise him, or can you commit a mortal sin after baptism and still go to heaven?

Some people call it legalistic works, but it is not. Nor is it just for obedience sake. There is a reason Christ told us to be baptised and believe, and why he told the disciples to go and baptise all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. There was also a reason why the dove descended on Christ's head when he was baptised by John the Baptist, but it was not for him, it was so that we would know.

Baptism brings us sanctifying grace. We are born again of water and spirit. We were not born with sanctifying grace when we were born, that's why we need to be reborn in Christ. We die and are buried with him so that we will rise with him.

Romans 6
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Acts 22
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

As for the other part of your question, I've mentioned this before but we believe that God can give sanctifying grace to whom he pleases, as witnessed by the thief on the cross, but baptism is the normal means.

As for the conflicting verses, this is a good article:

"there is no attempt here to pit baptism against faith, or belief against baptism. Things are rarely that simple. Faith and baptism are two sides of the same coin. Are we saved by faith or by baptism? Are we saved by believing or by the Spirit? These are false dichotomies that should have no place in our thinking.

How does one recieve salvation, justification, new birth, and eternal life?

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?
By repentance (Acts 2:28 2 Pet 3:9)?
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)?
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?
By works (Rom 2:6; James 2:24)?
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?
by his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?
by his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? without God's grace? without repentance? without baptism? without the Spirit? These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up, overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness."

Crossing the Tiber - Steve Ray

-But then, nor do we believe in OSAS:

James 2
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Baptism is one's entrance into the body of Christ, the new and everlasting covenant.

God said, "He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised..." (Gen 17:12). St. Paul tells us that Baptism replaces circumcision [Col 2:11-12].


"While I was in the Protestant camp, there was such a fear of attributing powers to baptism (that it actually did something), that we always reduced it to a symbol only....

Where did this "symbolic view" of baptism come from? Where did it originate? You will see as you read that it did not come as a result of careful Bible study; nor did it begin with the apostles in the early Chruch; nor did it originate in the Middle Ages. It was invented and developed as a doctrine of the Anabaptist movement, which broke away from Martin Luther's reform efforts.

....it was reactionary."

Crossing the Tiber - Steve Ray

-when Christ told Nicodemus that one must be born again of water and the Spirit, most say that to do that is to just believe. But before he said this, he was baptised, and right after, they went and baptised. It is important.

-but that's just FYI, to present the flip-side for your consideration.
 
Upvote 0

aggie03

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Jun 13, 2002
3,031
92
Columbus, TX
Visit site
✟19,529.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not a catholic - I am a Christian, but I do also believe that you must be baptized in order to be saved. Does this mean that the act of baptism saves you? No, but it is necessary to be saved - which is exactly what the verse you've quoted from Mark tells us. You can't be saved unless you are baptized, it's part of the equation.

Also consider this verse from 1 Peter:

1 Peter 3:20-21 ASV

(20) that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
(21) which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

This verse comes straight out and says it language that cannot be argued with - baptism now saves you through the ressurection of Jesus Christ. This idea makes perfect sense when you consider the passage from Romans 6 in light of it:

Romans 6:3-4 ASV

(3) Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
(4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

This passage necessarily and undoubtedly connects baptism with the death and ressurection of Christ - meaning that without it you cannot walk in newness of life. John 3, where Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, tells us that we must be born of water and the Spirit. What is a newness of life other than a rebirth. We are born again when we are baptized - and you cannot be saved without this rebirth.

Your situation is very interesting in that you have already been baptized. I believe however, that you need to be baptized again for the remission of your sins. I don't believe that in the New Testament we have evidence of non-believers being baptized, and also you must be baptized for the remission of your sins (Acts 2:38). Look in Acts chapter 8 at the Ethipoian Eunuch. He was baptized after Phillip made sure that he believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Likewise, we must also make that good confession, confessing with our mouths Christ as Lord. Then, after we have heard the word of God, believed, repented, confessed and been baptized are we saved.

This is a very brief overview of God's plan for salvation. If you're interested in hearing more, let me know, and I'll go more in depth if you'd like. Your heart is in the right place, you want to do what God says. Search the Scriptures, and do what God tells you through His Word, rather than what man teaches through doctrine.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Theresa

With Reason
Nov 27, 2002
7,866
198
46
✟24,289.00
Faith
Catholic
I appreciate your response Theresa. So, does it count that I was baptized at 9? Or would that not because it was before the fact?

-all baptisms are valid if done in the valid Trinitarian formula: In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps there's more to it, but that's about it. I can baptise if there is an emergency situation.

-If yours isn't valid then neither is mine for I was baptised at exactly 1 month old. ;)

-however, we go a bit deeper with it. You can lose sanctifying grace the same way Adam and Eve did. By direct and willing disobdience/rebellion/sin against God. But that's another story.

-but just to add, for your consideration, we do not believe in salvation as a one time event. So then, we are in the process of salvation, as St. Paul says, "It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ. Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession." [of the prize, considered salvation] 3 Cor:12-13
 
Upvote 0

aggie03

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Jun 13, 2002
3,031
92
Columbus, TX
Visit site
✟19,529.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I disagree with the idea that all baptisms are valid. I do agree that we are to be baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit as per the great commission in Matthew 28. However, I do not believe that any baptism is valid. If this were true, and your 1 month old baptism was what is commanded - then I would simply run around and force everyone I could find under water and baptize them.

Acts chapter 8 is a perfect example. What hindered the Ethiopian Eunuch from being baptized? Well, if baptism is just being dunked in water nothing hindered him. But one must believe before they can be baptized. Phillip made sure that the Eunuch believed, and then he baptized him.

I was baptized when I was a very small child, so young that I didn't remember it. After looking up all of the passages that deal with baptism and studying them, I was baptized for the remission of my sins (Acts 2:38) in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19,20) at the age of 20. I did this because I don't think Scriptures teach that a baptism is valid unless you believe beforehand and it is done for the remission of sins.
 
Upvote 0

Theresa

With Reason
Nov 27, 2002
7,866
198
46
✟24,289.00
Faith
Catholic
Now that is a big subject. We believe that baptism actually does something. When Adam and Eve fell, they lost sanctifying grace, so we are all born with original sin, including babies.

Now Christ, who gives grace for free, came to remedy the situation. We can now receive sanctifying grace primarily by baptism.

A child, who is born in original sin, still needs sanctifying grace. Now without it, it does not necessarily mean they would not go to heaven, that is for the just Judge to conclude, (he may give it as he pleases), however, we do what we know to be true.

The Ancient Church, Catholic and then Orthodox Catholics, baptise infants because it does something. So did the Original Reformors, Martin Luther (Lutherans), John Calvin (Presbyterians), and the Church of England/Anglicans.

Those make up the bulk of all validly trinitarian, incarnation believing Chrirstians and they practiced infant baptism without question for at the very least, 1500 years (there were only Catholics before then) The belief that says that infants should not be baptised is a really new one, no more than 400 years old.

That's mostly to point out that even Scripture alone camps feel the need for it. There is a wealth of info on this subject, and a very good reasoning behind it.



I will start with covenants. God said to the Jews that he who is eight days old shall be circumcized, meaning, they entered into the covenant.

To deny an infant baptism is to say that they may not enter into the New and Everlasting Covenant until they were old enough, but God accepted the eight day old child as a member of his covenant.

So then, when Peter was speaking to the Jews, he says this:

Acts 2
38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."


Peter was not telling them that their babies could not enter into the new convenant, he said specifically that children could be baptised. The verse doesn't even imply it as a generational thing, like "children's children". He is speaking in the now, for you, for your children, for everybody.

Iraneaus writing between 130-200 A.D. says this:

"For He [Jesus] came to save all through means of Himself-all, I say, who through Him are born again to God-infants, and children, and body, and youths, and old men."

The points to ponder are many. I can think of only a few.

1. What does baptism do?

2. Can children then, receive?

3. What does the Bible have to say?

4. What does the early Church have to say?

etc., etc.


But 'tis a big subject and it's late. I like this thought though:

"The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism."CCC

It's free even for babies.

Household baptisms:

Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor 1:16, etc.
 
Upvote 0

aggie03

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Jun 13, 2002
3,031
92
Columbus, TX
Visit site
✟19,529.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, you're right about this becoming a much larger topic now - and I'm not entirely sure that this is the place for it to be discussed. But in order to give those reading this a little to think about I offer the following:

I don't believe that original sin is scriptural at all. In fact Ezekiel 18 teaches the exact opposite. Verse 20 gets right to the point, but if you read the entire section starting at verse 1 its more insightful;

Exekiel 18:20

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

How can a child be born with sin if the iniquity of those who have lived before it are not counted against it? It can't. There is also another important distinction that needs to be made: living with the consequences of sin are different than bearing the punishment for that sin. I might sin and cause someone to die (murder). They have suffered the consequences of my sin but have not suffered the punishment for that sin.

Also, Christ tells us that we are to come to Him as little children - this wouldn't make sense if there was something inherently wrong with the children.

Another thing to think about is that this idea of original sin has its roots in gnostic teachings. They believed that sin was transferred through the flesh, which is the same idea that you're purveying. If this is carried through to the logical conclusion then Christ was born with sin. He was afterall flesh. The gnostics, unlike catholics, did carry this out to the logical end and therefore had to conclude that Christ did not come in the flesh, which is false. If the idea of original sin is true, then Christ was born with sin also. Doesn't fly.

If this idea of original sin is incorrect, which I believe it is, then the entire view of baptism that you've laid out so far cannot be correct.

I'm also not sure if you completely understand the nature of the Old Covenant. The Jews were members of that covenant because of whom they were born to. They were born into the covenant and then educated about it. Under the New Covenant, things are different. We are taught about God, and then enter into the New Covenant. You have to believe before you can be baptized.

About Iraneaus: I appreciate the fact that you are trying to offer supporting evidence, but I'm not going to take the word of a man over what the Bible teaches. There were plenty of false doctrines and precepts floating around - too many in fact - to trust anything that a man has written. The Bible doesn't teach infant baptism, so I don't believe it. It's nothing personal, I assure you ;), I just don't think it matters what uninspired men say.

I would really like to continue this discussion (I'm glad that we can discuss and not argue) in a different place. I'm afraid that it just may be too in depth to cover here. If, however, Galadriel thinks it will help, then by all means we should continue.
 
Upvote 0

Theresa

With Reason
Nov 27, 2002
7,866
198
46
✟24,289.00
Faith
Catholic
I don't believe that original sin is scriptural at all. In fact Ezekiel 18 teaches the exact opposite. Verse 20 gets right to the point, but if you read the entire section starting at verse 1 its more insightful;
Exekiel 18:20

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.


How can a child be born with sin if the iniquity of those who have lived before it are not counted against it? It can't. There is also another important distinction that needs to be made: living with the consequences of sin are different than bearing the punishment for that sin. I might sin and cause someone to die (murder). They have suffered the consequences of my sin but have not suffered the punishment for that sin.

-it sounds like you may be misunderstanding what original sin is. It is not a personal sin, but an inhereted one. And it is not a sin at all, but it is the result of the very first, original sin of Adam. It is the lack of sanctifying grace. One of the results of Adam's sins was the closing of heaven to the human race. So no human, no matter how good, or even ones who had been given sanctifying grace, could enter heaven until Christ came to open the gates again. That is part of original sin as well. That is why the OT saints did not go up to heaven, but down to sheol when they died, to the realm of the dead.

Consider:

Paul spells out the problem:

Romans 5:12-19

Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.

Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgresion of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come..

And then Romans 6:

3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death?

Christ tells us that we are to come to Him as little children - this wouldn't make sense if there was something inherently wrong with the children.

Psalm 51:5:

"True, I was born guilty,
a sinner, even as my mother conceived me."

-however, that sounds harsh without proper perspective.

Matt 18:2-5

And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever rececives on such child in my name receives me." (In my name: Acts 2:38: repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ; Acts 10:48 "He ordered them to be baptised int he name of Jesus Christ; Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

"Notice that we must come to Jesus in the New Covenant, as children. It would be strange to say that we must come to him as children, but then exclude the very children he claims we must be like, from entering communion with him through baptism!"

thing to think about is that this idea of original sin has its roots in gnostic teachings. They believed that sin was transferred through the flesh, which is the same idea that you're purveying. If this is carried through to the logical conclusion then Christ was born with sin. He was afterall flesh.

-nope that is absolutely false. You misunderstand what original sin is. It is not transferred in the flesh, it is the lacking of something in the soul, sanctifying grace. Adam and Eve had it, and their obedience was the "condition" on whether their descendents would be born with or without it. They disobeyed and yet Christ was obedient unto death. Through him we are restored and we receive the sanctifying grace that Adam and Eve were created with and lost.

Christ and Mary are the New Adam and the New Eve. Just as Adam and Eve who caused the fall were created without Original Sin, so we say of Christ and Mary were conceived without original sin, Christ because he was God and like us in all things but sin, and Mary because she was given this grace for the purpose of Christ and his work. She too was obedient as Eve was disobedient. (but that's another subject as well).

Genesis 3:15

"I will put enmity between you [serpent]and the woman [Mary],
and between your offspring [sin] and hers [Jesus];
He will strike at your head, [crush skull, Jesus conquered evil by his crucifixion, in the Place of the Skull}, while you strike at his heel. [Christ's archilles heel of flesh].

The gnostics, unlike catholics, did carry this out to the logical end and therefore had to conclude that Christ did not come in the flesh, which is false. If the idea of original sin is true, then Christ was born with sin also. Doesn't fly.

-only if you misunderstand the teaching.

If this idea of original sin is incorrect, which I believe it is, then the entire view of baptism that you've laid out so far cannot be correct.

-Catholics, Orthodox and most Protestants accept the teaching of original sin, so you can't point the finger at us. The Catholic Church is the one who decided the Cannon of the NT having rejected outright any book with Gnostic influence.

I'm also not sure if you completely understand the nature of the Old Covenant. The Jews were members of that covenant because of whom they were born to. They were born into the covenant and then educated about it. Under the New Covenant, things are different. We are taught about God, and then enter into the New Covenant. You have to believe before you can be baptized.

-You fail to take in certain considerations.

Christ says that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You will tell me that to be born again means to believe and accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior after the age of reason. So you say then babies cannot believe. So you then in fact, consign infants to hell.

Christ says be born again, you say that is faith, babies cannot have faith, can't be born again.

We however, say that to be born again meand to be born of water and spirit, baptism, and even babies can be born again for they did not have sanctifying grace at birth.

As for the Old Testament, consider this:

Genesis 17
9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
10 " This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
12 "And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
13 "A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14"But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

and Moses was rebuked for not circumcizing his son:

"On the journey, at a place where they spent the night, the Lord came upon Moses and would have killed him. but Zipporah took a piece of flint and cut off her son's foreskin....Then God let Moses go. At that time she said, "A spouse of my blood," in regard to the circumcision." Ex 4:24-26


And Joshua:

Joshua 5
2 At that time the LORD said to Joshua, "Make for yourself flint knives and circumcise again the sons of Israel the second time."
3 So Joshua made himself flint knives and circumcised the sons of Israel at Gibeath-haaraloth.
4 This is the reason why Joshua circumcised them: all the people who came out of Egypt who were males, all the men of war, died in the wilderness along the way after they came out of Egypt.
5 For all the people who came out were circumcised, but all the people who were born in the wilderness along the way as they came out of Egypt had not been circumcised.
6 For the sons of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, until all the nation, that is, the men of war who came out of Egypt, perished because they did not listen to the voice of the LORD, to whom the LORD had sworn that He would not let them see the land which the LORD had sworn to their fathers to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey.
7 Their children whom He raised up in their place, Joshua circumcised; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them along the way.






About Iraneaus: I appreciate the fact that you are trying to offer supporting evidence, but I'm not going to take the word of a man over what the Bible teaches. There were plenty of false doctrines and precepts floating around - too many in fact - to trust anything that a man has written. The Bible doesn't teach infant baptism, so I don't believe it. It's nothing personal, I assure you , I just don't think it matters what uninspired men say.

-Iranaus and many others can prove that infant baptism was done by the Early Christians/Church without question. It is used to prove the apostolicity of the teaching and of course there is many more. Your belief is one that the Apostles did not teach.

The Bible neither explicitly proclaims infant baptism, nor does in explicity deny it, however, there is more evidence for it then against it, and looking back to historical evidence of the historic Church, the evidence then becomes overwhelming. Besides the fact that nobody denied it until the Reformation while even the Reformers practiced infant baptism.

And you have to acknowledge that many of the false teachings floating around were by those that denied the Trinity, the Incarnation and many other things. It is the Catholic Church who defined the Trinity for you (for it is not explicit in the Bible), the incarnation, and the cannon of the NT which they compiled, and declared infallible, while also preserving it for you for over 1500 years. All I'm saying is that there is more to the story than your interpretation.


"Who is so impious as to wish to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaved by forbidding them to be baptised and born again in Christ?

This the Church always held; this she received from the faith of our ancestos; this she perseveringly guards even to the end."

St. Augustine
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Chef

Active Member
Jul 7, 2003
41
0
48
MASS
Visit site
✟7,652.00
I have a quick couple of word here....take them as you wish


Why not just do it again? Its not like it is hard to do... you can even make it a good thing... who knows maybe someone will see you on the beach as you are getting baptized in the ocean and ask you about Jesus..... wouldn't that be great? What I am saying is... it cant hurt anything to just do it again.
thats all...

BTW
I am going on Sat morning w/ my wife kids and some family friends to the ocean to be baptized .... not that you need an ocean... Im just a romantic....lol
 
Upvote 0
Galadriel,

The question you have asked is a good one, and the verse that you are studying, Mark 16:16, can certainly answer it. It seems as though you are a little confused by verses that speak of different steps to salvation. For instance, Mark 16:16 speaks of belief and baptism; Acts 2:38 talks about repentance and baptism; Romans 10:9-10 mentions belief and confession; Acts 3:19 says repent and be converted; Ephesians 2:8 mentions grace and faith; and 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism saves. None of these verses lists all steps at the same time. Therefore, we must learn everything that the Bible teaches on obtaining salvation.

As an example, if I am speaking to you on how to build a house, and I say, "Make sure that you buy plenty of wood to build the frame." Does that mean that you don't also need nails, hammers, measuring tapes, or levels to build the frame? Of course not. It is possible that I will mention all of those things later.

Mark 16:16 clearly teaches that baptism is necessary to be saved, but that doesn't mean that repentance isn't also necessary. In the same way, Romans 10:9-10 teaches that confession of Christ is necessary for salvation, but that doesn't mean that baptism is not necessary as well.

There is no instance in the Bible where salvation ever comes before baptism. If we look at the first gospel sermon ever preached in Acts 2, we see there that Peter had convicted these Jews of murdering Jesus. Let's look at their response:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
ASV

OK, from this text, we can clearly see that these people were now believers in Christ and that they were sorry for murdering Him. Was this belief alone enough to save them? Here is Peter's response:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ASV

Only after repentance and baptism could their sins be forgiven.

Continue to study what the Bible says on salvation, and remember to never take one verse alone as the complete message. You will reach the right conclusion with an open and honest heart.
 
Upvote 0
How do you deal with LUKE 23:43 where does the Baptizism happen ?????????

Luke 23:39 Theif on cross
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus , Lord, Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Thank God We do not have to work are way into Heaven......... Eph 2:8-9 John 6:29
Titus 3:5 2tim 2:13

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

amen
 
Upvote 0
The thief on the cross was saved prior to Jesus dying. He was still under the old law, and therefore, baptism in the name of Christ would not have applied to him.

Also, you are very right about not being saved by works. However, works do play a part. If no works are involved, then not even belief would be necessary:
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
KJV

Look at Ephesians 2 again. It says we are not saved by works lest any man should boast. Paul has clarified the word works to mean works that we could boast of. I can't boast of baptism because it is simply a condition that God has placed on entering a relationship with Him. It is not a work that earns salvation, and neither is belief, even though they are both obviously works.

Also, look in James 2:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV


A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
How do you deal with LUKE 23:43 where does the Baptizism happen ?????????

Luke 23:39 Theif on cross
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus , Lord, Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Thank God We do not have to work are way into Heaven......... Eph 2:8-9 John 6:29
Titus 3:5 2tim 2:13

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

amen
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.