baptism necessary to be saved???

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Serapha

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Florida College said:
Malaka,

You responded to my request for a scripture that teaches salvation by faith ONLY, or faith ALONE with the following scripture:

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

My response:
I still don't see the word "ONLY" or "ALONE" coupled with faith. You imply that it is there. What I read is that faith saved her. My question is: Did her faith prompt her to do something in the context of the passage? Start at vs. 36 (of Luke 7) and read the rest of that chapter. That woman acted on her faith. That is how faith saves. That is how Abraham's works saved him; he acted on his faith - James 2:21-24.

True faith in the Lord prompts us to obey his word - Matt. 7:21. What would faith prompt one to do when they hear the command, "Repent, and . . . be baptized for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38? Does faith prompt one to ignore the command? No. Does faith prompt one to go to great lengths to discredit the verse? No. Faith prompts one to obey the command!

I'm still waiting for the scripture that says we saved by faith ONLY, or by faith ALONE.

FC


using your theological application.

Christ said, "I am the way"... but obviously, using your application that "only" is not present.... you must beleive that Jesus Christ is not the only way.


Now... you can't "pick and choose" your interpretation and expect it to stand.

well, I guess you can pick and choose... but one would certainly lose credibility in their message.


So.... Is Christ the only way and the only truth, or is there another way and another truth simply because the word "only" was not published with the text.

~malaka~
 
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F

Florida College

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Malaka,

You are very observant.

Only those who can believe in Jesus, repent of their sins, and confess Jesus are candidates for baptism.

Acts 22:16 It is still there. Why are you waiting?
Don't you have faith? Faith should allow you to "see" what is accomplished in baptism: note Rom. 6:3-11 & Col. 2:12. The "faith alone" doctrine keeps you in unfavorable company - see James 2:19.

Still waiting for that scripture . . . .

FC
 
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Serapha

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aggie03 said:
Wrong covenant. I will give you credit for being the only person who has tried so far though :) (I'm being serious, most people have just ignored the request to present scripture supporting that argument)


Even if I were not baptized, John 3:16 tells me that I will not perish. If fact, it promises me everlasting life regardless of whether or not I have the baptism of water or fire.


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


After all.... Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, did he?


~malaka~
 
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RaptureTicketHolder

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What type of baptism is necessary - water or spiritual?

Eph.4:4-5, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM."

Acts 1:4,5 “And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.”

5 “For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Water baptism is just a shadow of spirital baptism. It is the spirital baptism that is the entirety of salvation's starting point.

An infant is not a subject of the baptism ordained by God in His Holy Word.

1. First, a candidate for baptism must be a hearer of the Word of God (Rom. 10:17; Acts 2:22, 37; 15:7).

2. He must be taught and he must learn the will of God. (John 6:45).

3. Furthermore, one must believe the gospel before being baptized. (Mark 16:16).

4. Another prerequisite to baptism is repentance.(Acts 2:38).

5. A verbal confession of Christ is also necessary before baptism.(Rom. 10:9; see also Acts 8:37).



Consequently, infants cannot be subjects for baptism because they cannot: (1) be taught of God, (2) believe, (3) repent, (4) confess. Those who baptize infants today are doing so against God's will.
 
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Serapha

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RaptureTicketHolder said:
Good grief Mal,

Your not gonna get that from any Bible faithful, Christ following Christian.

Why would you even wait for such a thing?



Well,

When someone holds me to the accountability that a verse may not be taken literally.... i.e.

"saved by faith"

Because the word "alone" isn't there, then that person must hold themselves accountable for the same reason.


I may assume that Jesus is not the only way because the word "only" is not published in that verse.


Interpretation has to be consistent.... unles my friend is using the "P&C" method.

Thanks for replying....

:wave:
~malaka~
 
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aggie03

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I don't believe that Florida College was picking and choosing, but considering the sum of what God's word teaches. There were other things that the woman you've mentioned did before she was forgiven of her sins. She didn't just believe.

Throughout the entirity of scripture you will not find another way to become a child of God other than through Christ and the things that Christ has said. I don't think that you've provided a very good example in the attempt to discredit what Florida College has said.
 
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Florida College

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Malaka,

Jesus says that he is the exclusive way to the Father - Jn. 14:6. I teach no differently.

I have found no verses that say that faith "ONLY" is necessary for salvation. If faith "ONLY" is implied in a verse like Jn. 3:16, then faith is all that is necessary. Correct? What would you do with these scriptures then - Lk. 13:3,5 and Matt. 10:32-33? See what you are doing with your argument? You are denying a lot more than just baptism. If the word "ONLY" was implied in Jn. 3:16, it would harmonize with other passages. It doesn't! Therefore, I reject the doctrine of faith only!

You (and others) are obviously having trouble finding a passage that says we are saved by faith ALONE, or by faith ONLY. Perhaps, James 2:24 is the passage you are looking for - - "faith only" is a part of that text.

"Buried with him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Col. 2:12 & Mk. 16:16

Is it hard to kick against the goads? - Acts 9:5

FC
 
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Florida College said:
To All Readers,

There has been quite a bit of discussion the past few hours about whether or not baptism is required for salvation. As I review many of the points made, I am seeing a lot of opinions being offered, and very few scriptural references. 1 Peter 4:11 says, "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God." In essence, we need to have a book, chapter, and verse to for what we promote.

I don't often use stories that are not strictly scripturally related, but when I saw this quote on a website, I thought that it might help some of you consider salvation through Jesus.

Here goes:
"The question as to which single characteristic saves the man is an abstraction. An illustration is helpful. A man who has fallen into the river screams for help. A man on the bank runs with a rope and throws it to the man in the river. He catches hold and is pulled to safety. What saved him? Was it his scream. Was it the rope? Was it the man on the bank? Did he save himself? Or was it all of these working together?"

Has anyone found that scripture yet that says we are saved by faith ALONE, or by faith ONLY?

I'm waiting . . . . . .

FC


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift from God:Grace=undeserved
Saved=past and continuelly
Faith Hebrews 11:1
not of yourselves=Gen 6:5,8:21, Romans 3:10-11
 
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Serapha

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aggie03 said:
I don't believe that Florida College was picking and choosing, but considering the sum of what God's word teaches. There were other things that the woman you've mentioned did before she was forgiven of her sins. She didn't just believe.

Throughout the entirity of scripture you will not find another way to become a child of God other than through Christ and the things that Christ has said. I don't think that you've provided a very good example in the attempt to discredit what Florida College has said.


You are absolutely incorrect in your thinking. Florida College (and you) are demanding that passages in the Bible that say "faith" with no appendages (baptism) are unacceptable.


You certainly cannot use double standards in your interpretation of the bible... can you?

Or, if you don't want to accept that the word "only" is assumed in


Jesus is the way


Jesus is the truth



then, how about.....


In the beginning, God.... was He alone???? must have been more gods around to help since the passage doesn't say "God alone".


or how about....

"The Lord is my shepherd"....

There certainly must be more shepherds around for others to follow because this passage simply states that the Lord is MY shepherd


So who's your sheperd?


It is senseless to demand that "alone" must be within a text for the passage to apply to salvation.



So, what must I do to inherit eternal life.... Christ was specific... you must sell all your possessions to inherit eternal life.

Have you done that?... where does selling all of your possessions fit in YOUR plan of salvation... before water baptism or after???


Salvation IS a process.. but the process isn't the same for everyone... and the only requirement that is consistent in the Word of God is that you must be saved by faith... THAT is the ONLY consistent requirement.

God's grace was sufficient to save me on MY day of salvation. His grace is sufficient to keep me saved through today, and His grace is sufficient to keep me saved tomorrow... my God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.... therefore, I can know that I am saved by grace... and not by baptism... because baptism doesn't even come into the picture when grace enters in....


because grace aboundeth more.


~malaka~
 
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aggie03

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How are we using double standards by considering what the sum of God's word teaches? It is readily aparent from the verse that you've quoted that the woman was not saved by her faith alone, otherwise she would never have had to leave her home, just believing would have made her sins forgiven. James 2 is also very clear that it is not faith alone that saves us. I don't understand how this can be picking and choosing. I believe what the sum of God's word dictates concerning belief - that it alone cannot save us :).
 
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Serapha

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aggie03 said:
How are we using double standards by considering what the sum of God's word teaches? It is readily aparent from the verse that you've quoted that the woman was not saved by her faith alone, otherwise she would never have had to leave her home, just believing would have made her sins forgiven. James 2 is also very clear that it is not faith alone that saves us. I don't understand how this can be picking and choosing. I believe what the sum of God's word dictates concerning belief - that it alone cannot save us :).


Well, if you believe that it is the sum of God's Word... then go sell all your possessions.....


As that is the requirement for eternal life. I don't expect to hear from you again... that 'puter needs to be sold.


~malaka`
 
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F

Florida College

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Malaka,

In Jn. 14:6 Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." While the specific word "ONLY" is not in the verse, the idea with the phrase "except through Me" is that Jesus is the only way to the Father. I am convinced that other scriptures harmonize well with this concept. Am I mistaken?

My point about Jn. 3:16 is that the words faith "ONLY" or faith "ALONE" are not in the text. If they are implied, then salvation by faith only is a doctrine that will harmonize with other scriptures. Does it? If so, feel free to address the following, which is part of the previous response that I sent to you . . . and that you didn't answer.

I have found no verses that say that faith "ONLY" is necessary for salvation. If faith "ONLY" is implied in a verse like Jn. 3:16, then faith is all that is necessary. Correct? What would you do with these scriptures then - Lk. 13:3,5 and Matt. 10:32-33? See what you are doing with your argument? You are denying a lot more than just baptism. If the word "ONLY" was implied in Jn. 3:16, it would harmonize with other passages. It doesn't! Therefore, I reject the doctrine of faith only!

You (and others) are obviously having trouble finding a passage that says we are saved by faith ALONE, or by faith ONLY. Perhaps, James 2:24 is the passage you are looking for - - "faith only" is a part of that text.

"Buried with him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Col. 2:12 & Mk. 16:16

Is it hard to kick against the goads? - Acts 9:5

FC
 
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Florida College said:
Brethren,

Yes, I have read Rom. 4:13-17. Many times.
But I read it again - just because you asked me about it? Just so that I'm not missing something while I read it, why don't you comment on the verses so I can understand what I'm missing. Is Rom.4:13-17 the passage that says that we are saved by faith ALONE. If it is, I sure missed it. Perhaps you could point it out for me.

Faith is not something that God does for us in Jn. 6:29. Jesus was asked the question in vs. 28, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus' reply was not, "You don't have to do anything, God does it all." Rather, his reply was, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." In answering their question ("What shall we do?), Jesus reply is to have faith in him. Faith is something we do,

HOW IS THAT? your verse?

Hebrew 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Where does one get faith?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit from the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Reason why it come from the Holy Spirit. this is one of many works of God to give us salvation

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on him that He sent

Till you understand that no one can work into heaven but a gift from God you do not understand the work on the Cross



not some work God does for us! (Jesus said, "For if "you" do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" - John 8:24.) The work of God, or the work God would have us do, is to believe in his Son. Acceptable faith is an obedient faith. Those who claim faith, and have no works of obedience, have the faith of the "demons" (NKJV) in James 2:19. Obedience is necessary - Heb. 5:8-9.

You say that baptism in water is man's work. Really? All indications are that Luke wrote the book of Acts. In Acts 8:35-39, Luke clearly recorded that Philip preached Jesus - vs. 35. Then the eunuch inquired about baptism. Did he desire Holy Spirit baptism or to be baptized in water? The eunuch said, "See, here is water" - vs.36. Then Luke records that Philip and the eunuch went down into the water - vs. 38, and came up out of the water - vs. 39. I really don't think it should be terribly hard from the context to determine that the eunuch was baptized in water, not the Holy Spirit. So, if water baptism is by man, then was Philip in error when he "preached Jesus," or was Luke in error by writing an erroneous record of the event that really took place?

Brethren, you are starting to use some scripture with your replies. That is a step in the right direction. The challenge for you now is to study them thoroughly before throwing them into the midst of a discussion. Rom. 9:11 is an example. I recall you commenting that there was no baptism there. Remember? Did you even consider that Rom. 9:11 is talking about Rebecca and Isaac's unborn children Esau and Jacob? No, without studying the passage in its context, you grabbed it because it appeared on the surface to offer a defense to the point you are trying to make! What a convincing argument - - salvation by faith alone is justified because Esau and Jacob didn't have to be baptized before they were born!!!

Do you really hope that I learn more about grace? Why not teach me? I thought I understood 3 basic facts about grace:
1.) Grace has been extended to all men - Titus 2:11.
2.) All men will not be saved - Matt. 7:13-14.
3.) Therefore, there must be more involved in salvation than just grace.
What have I missed?
-
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Remember, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mk. 16:16. Just a reminder, the passage doesn't go away just because you refuse to accept it!

FC


Baptism is by the Spirit not water for salvation
 
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Serapha

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Florida College said:
Malaka,

In Jn. 14:6 Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." While the specific word "ONLY" is not in the verse, the idea with the phrase "except through Me" is that Jesus is the only way to the Father. I am convinced that other scriptures harmonize well with this concept. Am I mistaken?

Is it hard to kick against the goads? - Acts 9:5

FC



I believe you are mistaken.... the verse doesn't say "only" or "alone".... so no... don't go substituting words... and don't go interpreting the passage... for now YOU say that it is okay to accept "concepts".....
to represent YOUR interpretation.

You see, I don't think I am being unreasonable here.... I am only asking that you do the same with all the Bible instead of picking and chosing where you want to apply YOUR rules.


~malaka~
 
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Crusader

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I believe that Baptism has everything to do with salvation. Scripture is very clear in my opinion that it is both the blood and the water that has to do with salvation

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


1 John 5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;



Cyprian Epistle LXXI.1 To Stephen, Concerning a Council.

when they come to us and to the Church which is one, ought to be baptized, for the reason that it is a small matter2 to "lay hands on them that they may receive the Holy Ghost," unless they receive also the baptism of the Church. For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament;3 since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."4 For we find also, in the Acts of the Apostles, that this is maintained by the apostles, and kept in the truth of the saving faith, so that when, in the house of Cornelius the centurion, the Holy Ghost had descended upon the Gentiles who were there, fervent in the warmth of their faith, and believing in the Lord with their whole heart; and when, filled with the Spirit, they blessed God in divers tongues, still none the less the blessed Apostle Peter, mindful of the divine precept and the Gospel, commanded that those same men should be baptized who had already been filled with the Holy Spirit, that nothing might seem to be neglected to the observance by the apostolic instruction in all things of the law of the divine precept and Gospel.

WATER BAPTISIM
Hear is what Justin Martyr has to say about baptism;

Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism.
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above;128 he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."129
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.


http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01...6.htm#TopOfPage
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world
John 3
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We (john the Baptist and Jesus) speak that we (john the Baptist and Jesus) do know, and testify that we (john the Baptist and Jesus) have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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F

Florida College

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To All Readers,

The discussion of the necessity of baptism has been long and various lines of reasoning have been promoted. Please consider why the controversy continues: (scripture references are from the NKJV)

There are misunderstandings of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." - - The bible student that truly believes that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God will realize that all scriptures must harmonize. That is to say, that the understanding that is derived from one passage of scripture will harmonize with the understanding derived from other passages of scripture. If the passages do not harmonize, somewhere in this process there is an error.

There is a failure to understand Matthew 7:21-23. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" - - In these passages, Jesus gives a glimpse of the judgment day. Jesus clearly points out that saying "Lord, Lord" is not enough; those who say "Lord, Lord" also need to do the will of God. "Many" will reason with the Lord; in addition to saying "Lord, Lord," they think they have been doing many works in his service. His response to them? I never knew you. Notice carefully his response: "I NEVER KNEW YOU! Why did Jesus never know them? After all, they were thoroughly convinced that he did. Because they did not understand what it takes to become a Christian. Why did they not understand? Because they practiced "lawlessness" - - they acted outside of his law - - they acted without his authority - - they acted without a book, chapter, and verse to support what they had convinced themselves was right!!!!!!!!!!

As I review many of the points made, I am seeing a lot of opinions being offered, sometimes with few or no scriptural references. This is very troubling in light of 1 Peter 4:11 - "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God."

Why can we not agree on whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation? Because there is a failure to harmonize scripture. Consider Romans 5:10. "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Now, think about this passage in Paul's epistle to the Romans. Are we reconciled by Jesus' death, or are we reconciled by his life? Or possibly, could his death and life both be factors in our reconciliation to God? Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, we should realize that both factors (his death and life) are true.

The salvation of man involves a number of factors.
I don't often use stories that are not strictly scripturally related, but when I saw this quote on a website, I thought that it might help some of you consider salvation through Jesus.

Here goes:
"The question as to which single characteristic saves the man is an abstraction. An illustration is helpful. A man who has fallen into the river screams for help. A man on the bank runs with a rope and throws it to the man in the river. He catches hold and is pulled to safety. What saved him? Was it his scream. Was it the rope? Was it the man on the bank? Did he save himself? Or was it all of these working together?"

In conclusion, harmonizing scripture is not an option. It must be done. If not done correctly, relevant passages will be ignored, discredited, dismissed, or perverted. Such action is not acceptable to our God. The consequences are rather severe . . . "When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighy angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Amen, Amen, & Amen.

FC
 
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Florida College said:
To All Readers,

The discussion of the necessity of baptism has been long and various lines of reasoning have been promoted. Please consider why the controversy continues: (scripture references are from the NKJV)

There are misunderstandings of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." - - The bible student that truly believes that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God will realize that all scriptures must harmonize. That is to say, that the understanding that is derived from one passage of scripture will harmonize with the understanding derived from other passages of scripture. If the passages do not harmonize, somewhere in this process there is an error.

There is a failure to understand Matthew 7:21-23. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" -

matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work inquity[lawlessness]

Psalms 53:2 God look down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away[2peter 3:12]; and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the [#1] books was opened: and [#2] another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead[romans 5:8, eph 2:2, john 3:35, 2 peter 3:7]were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.




- In these passages, Jesus gives a glimpse of the judgment day. Jesus clearly points out that saying "Lord, Lord" is not enough; those who say "Lord, Lord" also need to do the will of God. "Many" will reason with the Lord; in addition to saying "Lord, Lord," they think they have been doing many works in his service. His response to them? I never knew you. Notice carefully his response: "I NEVER KNEW YOU! Why did Jesus never know them?
-
They wer not Eph 1:4 According as He chosen us in Him before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Where are we blameless vs 3 in the heavenly places

so on this world we are sinners but being put in him because of His work we are blameless..... this is grace


After all, they were thoroughly convinced that he did. Because they did not understand what it takes to become a Christian. Why did they not understand? Because they practiced "lawlessness" - - they acted outside of his law - - they acted without his authority - - they acted without a book, chapter, and verse to support what they had convinced themselves was right!!!!!!!!!!

As I review many of the points made, I am seeing a lot of opinions being offered, sometimes with few or no scriptural references. This is very troubling in light of 1 Peter 4:11 - "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God."

Why can we not agree on whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation? Because there is a failure to harmonize scripture. Consider Romans 5:10. "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Now, think about this passage in Paul's epistle to the Romans. Are we reconciled by Jesus' death, or are we reconciled by his life? Or possibly, could his death and life both be factors in our reconciliation to God? Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, we should realize that both factors (his death and life) are true.

The salvation of man involves a number of factors.
I don't often use stories that are not strictly scripturally related, but when I saw this quote on a website, I thought that it might help some of you consider salvation through Jesus.

Here goes:
"The question as to which single characteristic saves the man is an abstraction. An illustration is helpful. A man who has fallen into the river screams for help. A man on the bank runs with a rope and throws it to the man in the river. He catches hold and is pulled to safety. What saved him? Was it his scream. Was it the rope? Was it the man on the bank? Did he save himself? Or was it all of these working together?"

In conclusion, harmonizing scripture is not an option. It must be done. If not done correctly, relevant passages will be ignored, discredited, dismissed, or perverted. Such action is not acceptable to our God. The consequences are rather severe . . . "When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighy angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Amen, Amen, & Amen.

FC
 
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aggie03 said:
How are we using double standards by considering what the sum of God's word teaches? It is readily aparent from the verse that you've quoted that the woman was not saved by her faith alone, otherwise she would never have had to leave her home, just believing would have made her sins forgiven. James 2 is also very clear that it is not faith alone that saves us. I don't understand how this can be picking and choosing. I believe what the sum of God's word dictates concerning belief - that it alone cannot save us :).

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he predestinated, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

pleas look above response to florida

Matt 7:23 works of inquity

Psalms 53:2-4 worker of inquity have not called upon God but they do the works of God in matt 7:21-22

Rev 20:12-13 judged by their works

SO how does one get to heaven in a nut shell

God has done all the work for are salvation

this is the stumbling block

what people have a problem with is that God give us believer opportunities to show in our lives do be used by God to Do God's will

this is james 2 work.

Matt 7: is talking about people who think the have to work for salvation
 
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