Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

[claninja]

Where did I say the woman of Revelation 17 and Babylon of 18 are different?

Excellent, then we agree, the woman, who is the great harlot, and Babylon the great are the same entity.

Explain how the kings of the earth commit adultery with Jerusalem when the world hates her?

The chosen people of Israel were God's metaphorical bride:
Isaiah 54:5
For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts;

Israel became his bride when he covered their nakedness by entering into the covenant with them:
Ezekiel 16:8
“ ‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine.


However, Israel whored with the surrounding nations, the kings of the earth:
Ezekiel 16:26-29
26You engaged in prostitution with the Egyptians, your neighbors with large genitals, and aroused my anger with your increasing promiscuity. 27So I stretched out my hand against you and reduced your territory; I gave you over to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were shocked by your lewd conduct. 28You engaged in prostitution with the Assyrians too, because you were insatiable; and even after that, you still were not satisfied. 29Then you increased your promiscuity to include Babylonia,c a land of merchants, but even with this you were not satisfied.

Old covenant Israel was the Lord's Faithless bride.

And he would use Rome to destroy unfaithful Israel in 70AD, leaving her naked
Revelation 17:33
They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire


**Israel is the harlot, as she was in the covenantal relationship with God. No other nations were in a covenantal relationship with God. In order to be an adulteress, one must have a husband, and in the context of scripture, that husband is God.

Has God had a covenantal relationship with Islam?

Explain who has grown rich from the excessive luxuries of Jerusalem?

God describes Israel as an abnormal prostitute giving gifts to the surrounding nations
Ezekiel 16:33
Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings

Try looking at the excessive riches of Mecca.

The bible is not about mecca or islam, it is about Christ and his story is told through God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Tell me does Islam or Jerusalem rule over more kings of the earth?

You are interpreting these verses outside the context of God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Let's stick within the context of the Bible. Someone else has already posted a great piece on this, so i'll leave it with you:

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

I believe the church needs to stop looking to Europe here.

I agree.

Tell me who has become rich because of the wealth of Jerusalem and then tell me who has become rich from the wealth of Saudi Arabia.

Again, You are interpreting these verses outside the context of God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Tell me who is currently killing more Christians, Jerusalem or Islam? Who is doing the beheading now days?

Again, You are interpreting these verses outside the context of God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Please tell me how Islam is killing the prophets of God outside of Jerusalem, as a prophet cannot die outside of Jerusalem
Luke 13:33
Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.

Of course Jerusalem has blood on her hands but many more believers in Christ have been and are being killed by false religions the chief in our day being Islam.

Look I get it. Some here make a nice case for Jerusalem but I believe that leaves a lot of questions unanswered, a lot of scriptures and prophecies don’t fit. So until I see real answers for some of the problems I have trying to fit Jerusalem into this role I am firm where I am. Everyone has their pet scriptures to prove a point but most don’t address the questions I have raised. Look we have Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca, I have heard New York, Moscow and a few others and everyone is right and everyone else is wrong. I’ve been wrong on things in the past and will be I’m sure in the future but I have not read one post here YET to change my mind.

Islam I believe has a major role in endtime events and it appears many Christians don’t even consider it.

You say there is a nice case for Jerusalem, and yet you do not attempt to refute any of the verses.
If it is something else other then Jerusalem, then refute the scripture then post scripture that confirms your argument.

 

[claninja]

What do these two passages have in common other that the words "great city" ?

Please provide scripture, that in the context of Revelation, the great city is defined as anything else other then what Revelation 11:8 states. Otherwise, why would we assume the great city is something different that Israel?

Revelation 11:8
8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

In order to prove that the great city can mean something else, you will have provide us with scripture, in revelation, that defines the great city as some thing else.

 

[Douggg]

Please provide scripture, that in the context of Revelation, the great city is defined as anything else other then what Revelation 11:8 states. Otherwise, why would we assume the great city is something different that Israel?

Revelation 11:8
8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

In order to prove that the great city can mean something else, you will have provide us with scripture, in revelation, that defines the great city as some thing else.

Paul the great Christian. John the great Christian. Peter the great Christian.

All three are great Christians, but are not the same person.

In Revelation 11, that "the great city" is Jerusalem.

Mystery, Babylon the great - is a different "the great city".

 

[Postvieww]

why would we assume the great city is something different that Israel?

We shouldn’t assume anything, especially when Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation let’s not assume that Mystery Babylon is also Jerusalem, because of the phrase “great city”.


There are other “great cities” in scripture as I have previously listed.


Let’s look at all of the information given and see if it describes Jerusalem, I think it does not.

In order to prove that the great city can mean something else, you will have provide us with scripture, in revelation, that defines the great city as some thing else.

I do not derive my understanding of scripture by the parameters you demand.


I have shown previously how the descriptions in Revelation 18 do not point to Jerusalem.


If you would like to prove your theory correct, deal with each of those directly. I already know you believe “great city” is the smoking gun, but I disagree.

 

[claninja]

Paul the great Christian. John the great Christian. Peter the great Christian.

All three are great Christians, but are not the same person.

This is an inappropriate argument.

Paul, Peter, and John were literal people, we can read about them. Paul, Peter, and John were not names used in a symbolic manner within a symbolic book.

Revelation is a book of symbols, with their meanings identified throughout the book revelation and with the knowledge of OT scripture.

In Revelation 11, that "the great city" is Jerusalem.

The wom
Mystery, Babylon the great - is a different "the great city".

Again, you'll have to provide scripture that shows the great city is defined as something different. because otherwise we can make the great city mean anything we want to, if we don't stick with the definition given in revelation.

 

[David Kent]

Where does scripture say antichrist will present himself as Messiah to the Jews?

Daniel 11:6 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

That does not refer to Antichrist, but The king who emerged at the end of their kingdom, the Greek. The only king in the NT with The King after his name.

 

[Postvieww]

The bible is not about mecca or islam, it is about Christ and his story is told through God's covenantal relationship with Israel.

Every nation that is called by name in scripture that God destroys in the end times is predominantly Muslim!

Who wants to wipe Israel off the map, it is not Mormons?

 

[claninja]

We shouldn’t assume anything, especially when Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation let’s not assume that Mystery Babylon is also Jerusalem, because of the phrase “great city”.

We don't have to assume when the information is given. Again revelation 11:8. If we change the meaning of the great city, then one has to assume it's different then what is defined as.

There are other “great cities” in scripture as I have previously listed.

This is exactly the point, there are many great cities. How in the world are we know who the woman/Babylon of revelation 17-19 are if we don't have a definition of what the great city is. If it's different then 11:8 we can make it about anything.

I do not derive my understanding of scripture by the parameters you demand.

These are important parameters, otherwise we can give the great city any meaning we want.

I have shown previously how the descriptions in Revelation 18 do not point to Jerusalem.

Do you believe the woman and Babylon are the same?

If you would like to prove your theory correct, deal with each of those directly. I already know you believe “great city” is the smoking gun, but I disagree.

I already have, The great city is defined in revelation 11:8. If it is going to mean something else, you have to provide scripture, specifically in revelation, showing it means something different then what revelation 11:8 defines it as. Other wise your argument doesn't work.

 

[claninja]

Every nation that is called by name in scripture that God destroys in the end times is predominantly Muslim!

Who wants to wipe Israel off the map, it is not Mormons?

So you believe Islam is the bride and has a marital (covenantal) relationship with God?



Otherwise how could the kings of the earth commit adultery with someone is not married?

Revelation 18:7
In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow;c

Revelation 18:3
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,

 

[Postvieww]

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Context here is the day of the Lord, the end times.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.



11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.



12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.



13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.



14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.



15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.



16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.



17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Iran

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.



19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.



20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Do Arabians pitch their tents in Jerusalem?

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.



22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

 

[Postvieww]

These are important parameters, otherwise we can give the great city any meaning we want.

Great city means what ever city being referred to is a great city. there can be more than one great city. We are never going to agree on this "great city" thing but it is all you have so I understand the urgency.

 

[Douggg]

Paul, Peter, and John were literal people, we can read about them. Paul, Peter, and John were not names used in a symbolic manner within a symbolic book.

great city is common term, not a personal noun. Chicago is a great city. LA is a great city. Tokoyo is a great city. Moscow is a great city. But Chicago is not LA. Nor Tokoyo. Nor Moscow.

No one here is arguing against that the two witnesses, when killed, their bodies will lie death in the streets of Jerusalem.

Mystery, Babylon the great is something different than a literal bricks and mortar city.

 

[claninja]

No one here is arguing against that the two witnesses, when killed, their bodies will lie death in the streets of Jerusalem.

Why is that? because the great city is defined. If the line "which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified" was not there, then we would have no idea.

Again, the book of revelation uses an incredible amount of symbolism. I don't think anyone is arguing against that either.

in order to understand the meaning of the symbols, we must look for when certain terms are defined, as well as looking at OT biblical language.

great city is common term, not a personal noun. Chicago is a great city. LA is a great city. Tokoyo is a great city. Moscow is a great city. But Chicago is not LA. Nor Tokoyo. Nor Moscow.

Again, its understood. Chicago, LA, Tokoyo are literal cities we know. Would anyone here argue that Chicago is not in Illinois, LA not in California, or Tokoyo not in Japan? of course not. And why is that? because these are defined terms.

When a book is written in symbolic and figurative language we have to use the definitions when provided. And it is clearly seen in this forum that many are just throwing the definitions provided by revelation right out the window and making a symbol mean whatever they want to.

Until you provide evidence that great city, in the book of revelation, is defined as anything else other than Jerusalem, specifically in revelation 12-16, your argument holds no water. because we can't just assume the meaning of the great city changed in chapter 17-18.



Person A: There's this great city, that is home to the willis (sears) tower, located near Lake Michigan
Person B: Oh yea, that's new York city.

 

[claninja]

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Context here is the day of the Lord, the end times.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.



11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.



12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.



13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.



14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.



15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.



16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.



17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Iran

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.



19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.



20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Do Arabians pitch their tents in Jerusalem?

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.



22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

This doesn't answer my question, so ill ask again:

So you believe Islam is the bride and has a marital (covenantal) relationship with God?



Otherwise how could the kings of the earth commit adultery with someone is not married?

Revelation 18:7
In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow;c

Revelation 18:3
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,

 

[Douggg]

Why is that? because the great city is defined.

No, because the two witnesses will be testifying to the Jews in Israel, where the temple is in Revelation 11:1-3, warning them about the person that they will think at the beginning of the 7 years is the promised messiah.

And when that person betrays them and becomes the beast, and the image made of him and placed in the temple - the Jews will start fleeing to the mountains - while the two witnesses battle with the beast as they flee.

So the beast will be in Jerusalem and the two witnesses.
___________________________________________________________

Revelation 16:
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Babylon the great, the great city in this passage, has no relevancy to being Jerusalem.

Mystery, Babylon the great is not Jerusalem - anywhere in Revelation. It is talking about an invisible empire likened to being a city. Having influence over the entire world. Which is why the cities of the nations will suffer when the earthquake hits at the end of the 7 years.

 

[claninja]

No,

The great city is not defined in revelation 11:8?
8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

I completely disagree.

My point was that we would have no Idea what the definition of the great city was.

And when that person betrays them and becomes the beast, and the image made of him and placed in the temple - the Jews will start fleeing to the mountains - while the two witnesses battle with the beast as they flee.

Can you provide scripture that explicitly states "the beast" will make an image that will be placed in the temple?

the Jews will start fleeing to the mountains - while the two witnesses battle with the beast as they flee.

Where does it say the jews will flee to the mountains while the 2 witness battle the beast?

 

[David Kent]

There IS a pretrib rapture, but you have not seen it.

You keep repeating that but repeating it often does not make it true. You have never shown one scripture to show it.

"The Bigger the lie, the greater the acceptance." Adolph Hitler. And futurism is a big lie on par with evolution.

 

[David Kent]

Can you provide scripture that explicitly states "the beast" will make an image that will be placed in the temple?

Of course he can't.

Where does it say the jews will flee to the mountains while the 2 witness battle the beast?

It doesn't-

 

[Douggg]

Can you provide scripture that explicitly states "the beast" will make an image that will be placed in the temple?

Not the first beast that makes the image, but the second beast the false prophet has the world make an image of first beast.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

So there will be an image made of him.

It doesn't say explicitly in Revelation that image is placed in the temple. But given that by combining what it says in Daniel 12:11-12 and Matthew 24:15 and by what historically has been shown to be the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 by Antiohcus, that was placed in the temple - it will be a statue image placed in the temple. The image will be setup - i.e. placed there to be worshiped. And will be a statue of the beast - made of him in the standing position.

The abomination of desolation typed by Antiochus
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The end times abomination of desolation "setup" - i.e. placed in the temple
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The abomination of desolation "standing" in a holy place
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

__________________________________________________________________________________

The statue image of the beast - will come to life, breathe and speak, seemingly by a miracle by the false prophet - but in actuality by Satan incarnating the image.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[David Kent]

#

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

Also the colours of the cardinals and priests of Rome.

There are no priests or cardinals in the Christian Church.