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Featured Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Not only is the image placed in the temple different from the revealed man of sin who sits in the temple - but the terms itself are different. And not at the same time.

    The abomination of desolation will follow the transgression of desolation by a guesstimate of a couple of months. Not enough information to pin it down.

    _______________________________________________________________________________
    For the transgression of desolation....

    The Antichrist, who at that time will be the King of Israel goes into the temple, sits, showing himself to be God. It is that act which reveals him to be the man of sin. That act is called the Transgression of Desolation in Daniel 8:13.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    It is called a Transgression because he transgresses the covenant that God made with the children of Israel that He would be their God.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    The Abomination of Desolation is something different. It will be setup in the temple, Daniel 12:11.

    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    If a person only read Matthew 24:15 and the words "standing in the Holy Place", a person could think -
    oh, it is the man of sin standing in the temple. But actually the man of sin sits in the temple.

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

    So if it is not the revealed man of sin standing in the holy place, and the abomination of desolation is something that is setup - how do we make head or tails out of that?

    Here's what it will be...

    When the Antichrist unexpectedly goes into the temple, sits, claiming to be God - that is the transgression of desolation. The act will mortify the Jews because all along they will be thinking the person is the messiah, and will have actually been anointed the King of Israel.

    So they are going to disown him as their King of Israel right away, ending the person's time as being the Antichrist. God angered by the revealed man of sin's audacious act has him killed. Why? Because he has magnified himself in his heart to think he is God.

    So in Ezekiel 28:1-10, we can read about the person sitting in the temple of God. Claiming to be God.
    Because he has magnified himself in his heart.

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    Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Back to Ezekiel 28. God angered by the person claiming to be God - sends strangers to Israel against him - to kill him.

    Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

    8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

    9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

    _________________________________________________________________________________

    So in Isaiah 14, the person finds himself in hell, taunted...before being kicked out of the grave.

    18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

    19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

    Apparently when the Jews reject him as continuing as their King of Israel - he does not go along with it and starts killing them who rise up against him, before the strangers outside of Israel come in and kill the person.

    God, in disdain for the person, doesn't let him rest there in the place of the dead, and brings him back alive.

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    for the abomination of desolation....

    Brought back to life, the person, mortally wounded as the head on the beast for claiming to be God, but miraculously comes back to life, takes on the persona as the beast - which everyone will think, yeah his claim to be God before, is actually verified because he has overcome death.

    So the false prophet will have an image made of him and setup in the temple. It will be basically an idol, a statue of the beast in the standing position.

    Which we come back to Matthew 24:15, the issue if it is not the revealed man of sin "standing" in the Holy Place - then who is it?

    The false prophet does a seemingly big miracle makes the image come to life and speak. But in actuality, it will be Satan incarnating the image. And that will be who will be standing in the Holy Place.

    And the image, incarnated by Satan will be the abomination of desolation.

    When the image is first setup in the temple, it probably won't have any life to it. That's when the Jews are supposed to start fleeing to the mountains. The beast tries to stop them because he wants them to worship him - but the two witnesses keep the beast preoccupied while the Jews flee, until the two witnesses are killed by the beast.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jeruslaem doesn't sit on many waters - thus is not the great whore.
     
  3. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    • Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    I would say that they are Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.
     
  4. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    During the Roman war, the time from the AOD (the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, the holy place) to the failure of the daily sacrifice was exactly 1290 days. Exact dates given in Josephus Wars of the Jews, I suggest you read his description of the fall of Jerusalem. If you are ignorant of history, you will never understand prophecy.,

    So where does it say that an image will be set up in the temple? Answer without adding to scripture.
    Not at all. At the time of the end of either the Greek kingdoms or the Jwewish nation. Either would fit.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    David, the prophecy of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 is end times. Blessed is he who remains (faithful) to the 1335th day - the day Jesus Returns.

    Daniel 12:
    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    That’s a good question. Does even say that anywhere?
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So it’s not Jews that are surrounded by gentile nations, it’s gentile nations surrounded by gentile nations?
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jerusalem does not sit on many waters. Jersualem, the 2015 statistics, has a population of 524,700 Jews,
    307,300 muslims., 12,000 Christians.

    Conversely, the RCC has 1.29 billion worldwide.

    Jerusalem - 524,700 Jews
    RCC - 1, 290, 000, 000 worldwide
    Catholic Church - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    There is a difference between adding to scripture and interpreting scripture. Interpreting scripture is an effort to understand scripture. It can only be done with God's help to get the right results.

    Luke 24:44-48.

    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

    47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

    If the daily sacrifice is stopped, and the abomination of desolation setup - what is made desolate? The daily sacrifice takes place in the temple courtyard. The Holy Place is within the Sanctuary Building.


    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    What is made desolate is the temple - from praise and worship of the One True God.

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    So going to Daniel 11:
    30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

    31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    Antiochus and his army took away the daily sacrifice and placed an image of Zeus in the temple. Antiochus did not do it by his lonesome. But he directed it to be done.


    That typed what the abomination of desolation of the end times will be. An image placed in the temple of some false god.

     
  10. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Hmmm, am I in the midst of an undercover “Preterist” operation?


    This answer does not work for me.


    Daniel 11:6 we have “at the end of years”.


    Daniel 11:40 we have “at the time of the end”


    Daniel 12:1 “And at that time”


    Daniel 12:1&2 we find the “time of trouble” and in verse 2 the resurrection.


    Daniel 12:9 “time of the end”


    Daniel 12:13 “end of days”


     
  11. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Isaiah 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

    Revelation18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.



    Isaiah 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

    20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.



    Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.



    Isaiah 21:1 “The burden of the desert of the sea”

    Isaiah 21:11 “The burden of Dumah”

    Isaiah 21:13 “The burden upon Arabia”

    None of these refer to Jerusalem.
     
  12. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    No way. Preterist and futurist are both Jesuit inventions.
    I wish you would stop taking single verses and building a doctrine in them.
    • Daniel 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
    • 3And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
    • 4And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
    • 5And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
    • 6And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.
    Verse 2. 4 kings of Persia. Cyrus, Cambyses, Darius (Artaxerxes) Xerxes who stirred up all the world against Greece. Herodotus describes his army of several million from many nations including troops from India.
    Verses 3&4. The great king who did according to his will was Alexander, who was succeeded in his kingdom by four of his generals.
    Verses 5& 6 and those following the kings of the south are the Ptolemic kings, and the kings of the north are the seleucid kings of Antioch till we come toverse 21 and Antiochus Epiphanes until verse 31 when we have the Ships of Chittim, or the Roman navy, They came upon Antiochus when he was on his way to attack Egypt. The Roman Ambassador met Antiochus and drew a line aroungd him in the sand and said he had to return and not attack Egypt and he wanted a reply before he left the circle, or he would be considered to be at war with Rome. Antiochus asked for time to consider but the Roman said he needed a reply before he left the circle or the Roman said he would have to inform the senate that Antiochus was at war with Rome. Antochus was none too pleased at that and returned and took it out on the Jews.
    Verse 32 those who did wickedly against the covenant were the Helenising Jews, and those who knew their God were those the Hasmoneans.
     
  13. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    You have missed the point(s) again.Have you not noticed that the daily sacrifice stopped 2000 years ago. Of course you have to have a new temple built so that it can have the AOD installed. so the temple can be desolated again. (Quite unscriptural)

    You quote Matthew 24:15 But you ignore who is covering the same thing.

    Luke is saying that it is Jerusalem that was to be desolated. "(whoso readeth, let him understand)"
     
  14. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Yes and Revelation 18:21 tells us that Babylon “shall be found no more” and Jerusalem is alive and well today.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The daily sacrifice was stopped before the second temple was built as well, as the Babylonian captivity was taking place..

    And the daily sacrifice will be stopped again when the next temple is built, most likely a minimum size temple in haste to resume the animals sacrifice - which can be determined the animal sacrifices to be resumed 220 days after the Antichrist confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant.

    In Luke it talking about the desolation of Jerusalem. It doesn't call the desolation of Jerusalem the abomination of desolation.

    You do understand that there will be a transgression of desolation and an abomination of desolation, don't you? 70 AD is neither of those.
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    (Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. )

    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:



    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


    The "let him understand" in Matthew 24:15 is found in John 10:22, which is a reference to the festival of Hanukkah.

    All of the Jews of Jesus time knew about the abomination of desolation predicted by Daniel 408 years before Antiochus Epiphanes had a pig slaughtered on the altar and attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices.
    The city would also be attacked and the temple sacrifices would also be stopped during 70 AD.

    Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel texts because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in both passages.


    .
     
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the connection, Jerusalem was completely destroyed and levelled by the Romans. 'Titus dug up the foundations of the temple. It was rebuilt by others not the Jews till recent years.

    There can be no future temple as there can be no future priests, as the zealots destroyed the house of archives where the genealogies of the Jews was kept. The sacrifice failed because there was no one who could prove their genealogy, not for any other reason.
    See what Ezra said
    • Ezra 2:62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
     
  18. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    An awful lot of supposition and unconnected prophecies, Satan has surely muddied the waters since protestants began to accept the Jesuit futurist teaching in the early 19th century.
     
  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Boy, that's a misuse of the Ezra Scripture. That verse was about children of the priests who returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. Per Ezra 8, he sent back to Babylon to bring Levite priests because he saw none among those returning. So there were eventually Levite priests for the 2nd temple.

    Today, the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have claimed they have Levite priests from having researched their DNA.

    DNA Studies Trace Jewish Priestly Lineage From Biblical Times

    Just one more step towards their building the third temple in Jerusalem.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Likewise, how does that saying go - you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink.

    In order.....

    The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 was by Antiochus

    The desolation of Jerusalem was 70AD

    The transgression of desolation is end times...this generation....triggering the Day of the Lord

    The abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 is end times....this generation...triggering the great tribulation

    Jesus returns 1335 days following the beginning of the great tribulation.
     
  21. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And Antiochus Epiphanes did almost fulfill those events in Daniel to a tee, even with spiritually desolating inside the temple with swine sacrifice, and the setting up an idol in Zeus worship. But he did all that in 170-165 B.C. About 200 years later Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, so the one of Matt.24:15 cannot be Antiochus.
     
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