Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Philothei]

Let's not get off the topic here can we please? What questions could possible be answered about hell from the atheism? I think that if someone is an atheist then...how is the reality of hell affects them?

 

[Skavau]

Let's not get off the topic here can we please? What questions could possible be answered about hell from the atheism? I think that if someone is an atheist then...how is the reality of hell affects them?

Well, it doesn't. We obviously do not believe that it exists. It becomes instead the obscenity of the belief of hell itself as promoted by others.

 

[Tergle]

I don't know what to make of this, so I'll just assume you're being patronizing.

I am just sort of giving some credit where it is due. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Philothei]

I don't know what to make of this, so I'll just assume you're being patronizing.

The fact that hell is a Christian concept of living in alienation from God is obviously not one you believe in affects you? I cannot see how if one does not believe in God would still be conserned if there is hell (?) It sounds contradictiory and oximoron...

 

[Philothei]

Well, it doesn't. We obviously do not believe that it exists. It becomes instead the obscenity of the belief of hell itself as promoted by others.

So why would an atheist care what their fellow man wants to believe and why would they wonder if they will end in hell?

 

[BleedingHeart]

The fact that hell is a Christian concept of living in alienation from God is obviously not one you believe in affects you? I cannot see how if one does not believe in God would still be conserned if there is hell (?) It sounds contradictiory and oximoron...

Not so much concerned with it's real life existence but it's existence in a religious system that's supposed to be about love.

"So why would an atheist care what their fellow man wants to believe and why would they wonder if they will end in hell?"
Well there's many reasons for this. One is that to some extent, we all care what one another believes. It's a matter of reinforcement vs. cognitive dissonance. As a Christian, don't you want other people to be Christian? If you had a choice, wouldn't you want them to be Eastern Orthodox. In that same vein, I would rather people thought like me. I don't expect it, I don't intend to enforce it.

Another reason is that theists hold a lot of political power. Especially in America. So, we atheists are often either the target of ridicule or discrimination by Christian politicians. Numerous states, like Arizona and Maryland have statutes that specifically prohibit atheists from serving in office.

George HW Bush is alleged to have said that atheists cannot be considered Americans because "this is one nation under God."
Then we have the fact that, as much as I hate to say it, there are plenty of Christians who simply do not care about the separation of church and state. Now I can already imagine Tergle's response "There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. That's a just a secular lie." Well, Thomas Jefferson explained in a letter that the "separation" was the what the 1st Amendment meant.
But that hasn't stopped Christians in gov't. You had the inclusion of Under God in the 1950s. You had the inclusion of "in God we Trust" during the Civil War. You have the commandments put up on courthouses.

Then you have the fact that many people vote based on their faith. I remember seeing one lady who said she "voted for whoever has the most faith in the Lord", which surprisingly enough, turned out to be Republicans. Single-issue-voters drive me crazy with this, especially when you consider how little most mainstream Republicans seem to care about abortion (to the extent of changing it). People who oppose gay rights almost universally do so because of religious doctrine. And these things obviously aren't like one man or even a million people sitting in their confines of their home and praying. This is passing legislation that effects hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of other people primarily based on something that theists have never proved in the first place and that really, really sucks.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

The fact that hell is a Christian concept of living in alienation from God is obviously not one you believe in affects you? I cannot see how if one does not believe in God would still be conserned if there is hell (?) It sounds contradictiory and oximoron...

I was once a Christian, but I left the faith. The reason I come onto these forums is that I still have an interest in discussing these topics. I do not (and did not, as a Christian) find the concept of hell to be something a rational deity would invent or condone. I think it is immoral. I don't have to believe in your God in order to have an opinion on the matter. This is all hypothetical in my mind.

Hell is not always considered living in "alienation" of God. Some believe that the nonbelievers' souls are annihilated, others believe they will literally be tortured for eternity. Others believe hell is just an "absence" of God. I don't want to put words in your mouth telling you what you believe, but my point would be that the Bible is not particularly clear on the concept, and that the concept has evolved in Christian thinking over the years.

 

[Skavau]

So why would an atheist care what their fellow man wants to believe and why would they wonder if they will end in hell?

I don't wonder if I will end up in hell. I don't believe in hell. I am only interested in this discussion at 'rebuking' those who make the claim that hell exists and that all atheists deserve to go there. It is totalitarian. It is obscene and to hear it spoken from people who enjoy the liberty and prosperity of first-world democratic nations is extremely disturbing.

I care for the same reason, again, that I care about what Scientologists believe and the same reason that I have spoken against that. The product of the beliefs regarding Scientology produce evil and the product of eternal torture produces evil.

Did you see Zaac's statement where he admitted that he hated his parents and children?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Not so much concerned with it's real life existence but it's existence in a religious system that's supposed to be about love.

Yeah, agreed. I can't fathom how Christians are okay with the majority of the world ending up in hell, and still insisting that the religion is based on God's love for us.

 

[Philothei]

Since you are atheists as far as your faith icons I pressume you would not be interested in what hell is...as indeed from your perspective it "does not exist" that is why I asked. Whether or not we as beleivers have different or slightly different understandings is no secret we do; depending sometimes on different Christian traditions but as a general rule we do indeed derive that belief from the Bible.

 

[Philothei]

Not so much concerned with it's real life existence but it's existence in a religious system that's supposed to be about love.

So if I love you and you deny that love it is my fault? God has to force his love on us?

 

[Tergle]

I don't wonder if I will end up in hell. I don't believe in hell. I am only interested in this discussion at 'rebuking' those who make the claim that hell exists and that all atheists deserve to go there.

You have failed over and over again. And over and over again again.

It is totalitarian.

That would be the honest way of describing progressive politics. There is no dissent from it or they.

It is obscene and to hear it spoken from people who enjoy the liberty and prosperity of first-world democratic nations is extremely disturbing.

How many of these nations came from Christian influences????? And how many people really preach or even talk about hell anymore? One tiny group of Christians in Kansas?

I care for the same reason, again, that I care about what Scientologists believe and the same reason that I have spoken against that. The product of the beliefs regarding Scientology produce evil and the product of eternal torture produces evil.

Evil? Evil is relative. There is no such thing as evil. Only the breaking of some legislation derived laws of the land and nothing else.

Did you see Zaac's statement where he admitted that he hated his parents and children?

Maybe they are evil?

 

[Skavau]

You have failed over and over again. And over and over again again.

Yeah, I'm so surprised that you would conclude that.

That would be the honest way of describing progressive politics. There is no dissent from it or they.

That's not the definition of totalitarian.

And your premise is utter nonsense.

How many of these nations came from Christian infleunces????? And how many people really preach or even talk about hell anymore? One tiny group of Christians in Kansas?

It does not matter who preaches about it in this context, but who believes it to be true and binding for all atheists. It wouldn't matter whether it was just one or one million. Whoever holds the belief is believing in obscenity and totalitarianism.

Maybe they are evil?

Yeah, that was why he said it. Of course.

 

[Philothei]

I don't wonder if I will end up in hell. I don't believe in hell. I am only interested in this discussion at 'rebuking' those who make the claim that hell exists and that all atheists deserve to go there. It is totalitarian. It is obscene and to hear it spoken from people who enjoy the liberty and prosperity of first-world democratic nations is extremely disturbing.

I care for the same reason, again, that I care about what Scientologists believe and the same reason that I have spoken against that. The product of the beliefs regarding Scientology produce evil and the product of eternal torture produces evil.

Did you see Zaac's statement where he admitted that he hated his parents and children?

Belief in Hell comes from the Bible.. It has nothing to do with totalitarianism. People do not sent people to hell. If you do not end up in heaven is NOT our choice (christians) it is your choice. We are as Christians told that xyz in the Bible.. If Paul says that the sinners who live an unrepented life away from God because they chose to will go to hell... how is this the followers of bible fault? On the contrary we are not to judge...that is different from restating what the Bible says. I think we confuse two different things here. If Christians cannot send ANYONE to hell cause they are not Gods...there is no crime commited

Scientiology is a cult.. Christianity is NOT. You are comparing apples and oranges here... Your take on any 'thought" then is dangerous maybe we have to outlaw all "ideas" as dangerous...

 

[Philothei]

Whoever holds the belief is believing in obscenity and totalitarianism.

Any idea is then obscenity...thus no one should have any ideas in anything for they can be offensive and totalitarian.

 

[Skavau]

Belief in Hell comes from the Bible.. It has nothing to do with totalitarianism.

It does not matter where it derives from. Totalitarian systems will implicate you for what you think. They will hold you accountable for actions you do in privacy and thrive upon the creation of a seemingly infinite array of victimless crimes. To argue that all atheists will languish in hell purely for what they think or could not think is totalitarian in nature, be it derived scripturally or not.

People do not sent people to hell. If you do not end up in heaven is NOT our choice (christians) it is your choice.

No it is not. I cannot 'choose' to go to hell as I do not believe in hell. This statement is about as accurate as arguing that by 'choosing' to not be a Muslim you are necessarily choosing to enter hellfire.

We are as Christians told that xyz in the Bible.. If Paul says that the sinners who live an unrepented life away from God because they chose to will go to hell... how is this the followers of bible fault?

It is not and I never argued that it would be. I am responding to the belief that the hellfire doctrine for non-believers is just. I am not blaming anyone for anything.

On the contrary we are not to judge...that is different from restating what the Bible says. I think we confuse two different things here. If Christians cannot send ANYONE to hell cause they are not Gods...there is no crime commited

I am not saying that Christians send anyone to hell. Whether or not God is pro-active in sending people to hell isn't even part of my argument here either, surprisingly.

Scientiology is a cult.. Christianity is NOT. You are comparing apples and oranges here... Your take on any 'thought" then is dangerous maybe we have to outlaw all "ideas" as dangerous...

Be that as it may - the point is the same. I find the doctrine of eternal torment immoral. I find Scientology as immoral. That is why I argue against them both.

 

[Skavau]

Any idea is then obscenity...thus no one should have any ideas in anything for they can be offensive and totalitarian.

I never argued that you should not have the idea, did I? Please don't accuse me of inciting censorship when I have never even proposed it and have always argued against it.

 

[Tergle]

Yeah, I'm so surprised that you would conclude that.

Are you saying we aren't friends anymore?

That's not the definition of totalitarian.And your premise is utter nonsense.

Hmm, let's see:

Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed:

That describes your demands about hell believers. They must all submit to the non hellian viewpoint. You keep demanding that over and over again. Oh, and that definition is of . . . you guessed it! Totalitarianism.

Failing doesn't seem to stop the quest of secular dominance uber alles.

Totalitarianism in historic relief.

It does not matter who preaches about it in this context, but who believes it to be true and binding for all atheists. It wouldn't matter whether it was just one or one million. Whoever holds the belief is believing in obscenity and totalitarianism.

Which, of course, your stated position employed totalitarian viewpoint to describe that even the last person on earth that believes in hell must be crushed into a secular totalitarian ideology.

Yeesh.

Yeah, that was why he said it. Of course.

He isn't free to have opinions huh?

What word comes to mind that he has to submit to:

imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed

Looks like my premise is extremely sound.

 

[razeontherock]

I do not (and did not, as a Christian) find the concept of hell to be something a rational deity would invent or condone.

What was it invented to do?

 

[Philothei]

It does not matter where it derives from. Totalitarian systems will implicate you for what you think. They will hold you accountable for actions you do in privacy and thrive upon the creation of a seemingly infinite array of victimless crimes. To argue that all atheists will languish in hell purely for what they think or could not think is totalitarian in nature, be it derived scripturally or not.

No one argues about Atheists... pariticualrly anyhow... So to take this personally first of all is a mistake. Like I said you insinuate then to ban the Bible as totalitarian? I think you have a choice...just do not believe it. Anyhting binding can be totalitarian... and yet it is human. God and hell are of God though and thus not to be compaired to a human's mind level... You are seeing Christianity in a pure politicoeconomic system thus sociologically. Pity...

No it is not. I cannot 'choose' to go to hell as I do not believe in hell. This statement is about as accurate as arguing that by 'choosing' to not be a Muslim you are necessarily choosing to enter hellfire.

Then there is a contradiction in your thought if you do not believe why would you care what the 'others' believe? It is like wanting both ends of a deal Nah...Christianity does not put such perimeters either as God is the ultimate judge not the Koran

It is not and I never argued that it would be. I am responding to the belief that the hellfire doctrine for non-believers is just. I am not blaming anyone for anything.

Good. Cause that is God's command not ours.

I am not saying that Christians send anyone to hell. Whether or not God is pro-active in sending people to hell isn't even part of my argument here either, surprisingly.

How? You said that the Bible was 'totalitarian" in its message about hell...

Be that as it may - the point is the same. I find the doctrine of eternal torment immoral. I find Scientology as immoral. That is why I argue against them both.[/

Just because you find a cult immoral and the idea of hell immoral that does not make them equal. One is established through facts the other just your own feelings about it. I think it needs for you to explore much more the idea of hell before you could bring forth a rightful assensment.