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Are Trinitarians Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Well gerry, if all you could come up with in your posts is your little "LOL's and cute little remarks we would appreciate it if you wouldn't post at all.  Unless you have something to contribute in the form of serious discussion! The last I checked trolling isn't allowed in these forums or maybe you haven't read the rules yet?  I suppose that laughing at non believers is your way of leading them to salvation too? Do you laugh at them (LOL) when they ask you questions about the bible?  Is that what you do when you take your group out on a witnessing mission?  I personally would appreciate it if you would refrain from coming into a thread for the only purpose of "poping in" for a laugh or whatever.  If you want to engage in serious discussion, we welcome your thoughts.

    Cheers

    FR
     
  2. SCJ

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    Hey, how are you doing the Hebrew?
     
  3. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Franklin I have not read the entire post just the last couple of pages. Before I enter into this discussion I want you to bring me up to speed. Do you claim that Jesus was created? If so when? Are you saying that Jesus is not deity? From what I have read so far the discussion seems to be concetrated on Jesus but I would also like to know what you think the HS is. Do you think its just a active force of God? This will help me greatly to know what I need to post about if you will answer these questions.

    Thanks
     
  4. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

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    Oh Dear Me Franklin. I am so sorry I have done you wrong. You must forgive my ineptness. I will go and leave you to teach Bible and set a Christian example to the non-believers in this forum. I am sure if you need my help you will let me know, eh?
     
  5. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    You did not answer my question. "If it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it!" Where does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible state or imply that if Jesus did not mention a specific, thought, idea, on concept it is not true? Hoo boy looks like we are going to have a fun time, "silver bullet" "Get the picture."

    It is often said that the Trinity is a pagan concept. The only place an actual Trinity, i.e. Triunity, one God manifest in three persons can be found is pre-Christian Judaism. And my source is the Jewish Encyclopedia.
    “But orthodox Judaism rejected the Trinity!” They certainly did! And those same orthodox Jews were main players in the murder of Jesus and rejected Jesus, as the Messiah, even to the point of calling him a b#stard, in the Talmud. So if we are going to use orthodox Judaism as a criteria then we also have to reject Jesus, as well.
     
  6. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    In the begining, was who? And, who was God? Through whom were all things created? And who became flesh and dwelt among us?
     
  7. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    Actually, Gerry is not in any violation of forum rules with that post. ;)

    Rule #2: No Trolling

    You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. This will include any new user with less than 50 posts starting a "discretionable" topic - i.e. a topic not suitable for children. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site), or posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures.


    John
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    ”Are you talking to me?” Robert De Niro , Taxi Driver There are two ways, One, using the ISO numbers. Hebrew is 1488 aleph א to 1514 Tau ת. Preface each number with &# and ; at the end of each number. Enter number from left to right, e.g. for Yeshua yod-shin-waw-ayin, 1497-1513-1493-1506, the system will reverse them and print ayin-waw-shin-yod ישוע. I recommend using (size=3), notice how small the letters are compared to ישוע.

    The other way is use (font=bwhebl), most windows PCs have this font, type the appropriate character from the keyboard. End the font with (/font), replace ( with square brackets. If I do that everything between the Vb codes “font=” and “/font” will be Hebrew.

    Greek ISO numbers are in the 900 range. The Vb code for Greek is (font=symbol) most PCs have that font. E.g. IesouV. Place font codes closest to the text, and size and other codes outside the font codes.
     
  9. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Comments on the Trinity foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

    Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
    16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
    17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

    In this passage the (1) LORD who laid the foundation of the earth, who was from the time of the beginning, speaks, “and now (2) the Lord GOD, and (3) his Spirit, hath sent me.” One LORD GOD sent a second LORD and his Spirit!

    Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    The (1) LORD rained down fire from the (2) LORD, out of heaven.

    I can already see the argument. “Well, that only means the LORD sent himself or the LORD sent down fire from himself, etc., etc.” The Trinity interpretation, and my belief, is that these verses, as do all scriptures, mean exactly what they say. Unless God or one of the Biblical writers specifically states elsewhere that it has another, figurative, spiritual, etc. meaning. And I know that there is no other verse of scripture, which addresses these two passages specifically.


    Did Moses and Isaiah make a mistake when they wrote these verses? Did they mean something else? As can be seen from the passages, below, both Moses and Isaiah, and other Bible writers, wrote the “LORD/God himself/myself”, many times. So unless we have clear and convincing proof we must accept that these verses, inspired by God, mean exactly what they say. Had Moses or Isaiah intended to say “God himself” they would have done so, as they did in many other places.

    1 Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD

    It does not say, “the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by “his word!” As can be seen by the several verses I have quoted, below, and there are many others, Moses, Isaiah, and the other writers, often speak of the LORD and his word. Therefore, unless there is a mistake in God’s word, we must accept this as stating that the LORD, of “the word of the LORD” is somehow distinct from the LORD who is revealed. Do I need to point out that the Trinity interpretation, and mine, is it means exactly what it says.

    “2. God Is At Least Two Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities.
    As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is:

    Psalm 45:7-8
    "Thy throne, which is of God, shall stand for ever and ever: The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

    It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.
    A second example is:

    Hosea 1:7
    "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses nor by horsemen."

    So the Targum (Aramaic translation), “and I will save them by the Word of the Lord their God;''

    The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of Jehovah, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

    Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is:

    Genesis 19:24
    "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven."

    Clearly we have Jehovah number one raining fire and brimstone from a second Jehovah who is in heaven, the first one being on earth. A second example is:

    Zechariah 1:17
    Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

    “the LORD of hosts
    ” refers to the cities of Israel as “My cities”, in the first person, but speaking in the third person says “the LORD” somehow distinct from Himself, shall comfort Zion. He does not say “I will yet comfort Zion.”

    Zech 2:8-9 "For thus saith Jehovah of Hosts; for your glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake my hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me."

    Again we have one Jehovah sending another Jehovah to perform a specific task. The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton ("Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants י ה ו ה/YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was 'Adonai' ('the Lord'), itself later replaced by 'ha-Shem' ('the Name'). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of 'Adonai.' Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica Page 593) and wrote:

    "Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit." (Zohar, Vol. III, pg 288, Vol. II, pg. 43)”

    http://www.familybiblestudy.net/b2_s10_c2.htm

    Am 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.

    One, “The LORD the God of hosts” is speaking about a second, “The Lord GOD” in the third person, somehow distinct from Himself.

     
  10. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Very good OldS. I would like to add one of my favorite OT verse that goes along with you are saying.

    Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer
    the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Notice both of these are agreeing with this and saying it.

    Franklin where did you go? Are you going to answer my questions?
     
  11. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    I personally believe in the triune nature of God. Plenty of Scripture supports this, as eloquently pointed out in this thread.

    I'll be the last one to claim to have it all figured out. I can't even comprehend 'eternity', let alone the nature of God. :eek:

    ("For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.") :)

    John
     
  12. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hi cougan, Well, the way I look at the deity of Christ was that he was God's only begotten Son. I don't look at it as referring to the trinity. Scripture uses both begotten and creation to describe Jesus. These are both different terms to describe Jesus. He was begotten, conceived in Marys womb as is stated in scripture. It depends on what you mean by His deity.  If what you are implying is that He was God in the womb of Mary, that is not scriptural. His humanity is equally important also in that He was fully man but not fully God as is so commonly defined by the teaching of the trinity. John taught that it is a serious error to deny the humanity of Christ:

    I John 4:3, "Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come."

    God's spirit refers to His power, which reflects His "mind" in a very broad way. Since God's spirit is His mind and power, then there is no way that a mind or power can be a person. God's spirit includes His love, as part of His character, and also refers to His power, but in no way can it refer to a person who is separate from Him. I hope I answered your questions and I look forward to hearing back from you soon.  Thanks for posting.

    FR

     
     
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Franklin has given you his anti-Trinitarian response now for the Trinitarian response, which btw is supported by the early church, ca. 70 AD thru 325 AD.

    Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, activities, distinct from the Father and the Son!

    The Holy Spirit independently and autonomously; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, reveals, loves, and ordains to office.

    These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc. Here is a list of many of the scriptures which attribute these personal characteristics to the Holy Spirit.


     
  14. ReasonableDoubt

    ReasonableDoubt Member

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    Excellent. Perhaps you could lend some insight to the "Sons of God" thread.

    Meanwhile, is it simple coincidence that pagan trinitarian beliefs were pervasive in the society that spawned early Christiananity? For example, is it coincidence that attempts to defend some semblance of monotheism by Aruis of Antioch, were countered by was Athanasius of Alexandria, the vanguard of trinitarianism and a guy well versed in Egyptian mysticism involving the pagan Egyption trinity?
     
  15. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hi RD, thanks for your insightful comments..... perhaps you can send me the link to that one, "Sons of God" ?  Is that a thread in this forum? 

    PS, RD, I found your thread, sons of god.....  ;)



    fr
     
  16. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I'm sorry I don't believe I saw any evidence or documentation for any of those assertions. Perhaps you could give us the name of a book or two, by an acknowledged scholar in this subject area. For example, The History of Doctrines, Reinhold Seeberg, Early Christian Doctrine, J.N.D. Kelly, and A History of Christianity, Kenneth Scott Latourette, all of whom exhaustively document their histories, from ancient sources, and all of whom have never heard of your "pervasive pagan trinitarian beliefs" or "Egyptian trinity"

    By trinity I do not mean some modern day arbitrary grouping of three pagan deities, I mean, as I said before, one God manifest as three. The only place a Trinity exists outside of Christianity was pre-Christian Judaism and I did document that from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
     
  17. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Had God manifest Himself as a man before ? How about all the back to Genesis.

    And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man
    with him until the breaking of the day. 
                          
                        
    Gen 32:25  
    And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he
    touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of
    Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 
                          
                         
    Gen 32:26  
    And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 
                          
                         
    Gen 32:27  
    And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob. 
                          
                         
    Gen 32:28  
    And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 
                          
                         
    Gen 32:29  
    And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray
    thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that]
    thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
                          
                         
    Gen 32:30  
    And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I
    have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
     
  18. ReasonableDoubt

    ReasonableDoubt Member

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  19. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    Re-read what you wrote...these are CHARACTERISTICS of a PERSON!!!. How is it that these are not characteristics of the G-d who IS a spirit.

    peace and blessings
    assalamu alaikum
    shalom aleykom
     
  20. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    2CO 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

    Paul's Trinity blessing.
     
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