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Are Trinitarians Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    This is a great start. I've debated christadelphians ad nauseum on this topic.. :angel:

    God bless,
    FM
     
  2. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    1 John 2:22, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." 1 John 4:15, "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." These are quoted to prove "we are warned not to belittle Christ." Jesus Christ rendered perfect obedience, never sinned, overcame every weakness and temptation. Therefore God hath exalted him that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (Philippians 2:9-10).  


    I don't see how you cannot deny it.  This is from the word of God not some man made creed!  Notice 1Jn 4:15 says, "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God?  Not, God the Son?   
     
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    The KJV Bible has 31,172 verses. You have only quoted one verse. My Bible also has John 1:1-14, Philip 2;6-11, John 8:58, 1 John 5:7, and

    Joh 20:28
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    And I note that Jesus did not tell Thomas, not to call Him God, because He was only the son of God. And since I learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I and Elvis Germany tour, I can tell you that the form of the Greek is not an exclamation, such as "Oh My God!" but the vocative. Thomas was calling Jesus God, no ifs, ands, or buts.
     
  4. wblastyn

    wblastyn Jedi Master

    +110
    Agnostic
    Single
    The Jesus of the Bible is God made flesh, so if you worship a Jesus who is not God, then you worship a different Jesus to the Christian Jesus.
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Unlike his Father who is invisible, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. But we must remember that his Father is greater than himself.  Jesus is the Word and he resides between God and Man and is our mediator to God. It was the Word that became flesh, not God who became flesh as some say and all things that were created were created by God though his Word. See John 1:3: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".
    Jesus was divinely begotten and this is why he is called Gods only begotten Son and this is what makes him unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man, this is why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved.
     
  6. websitejack

    websitejack Having done all ~ Stand

    48
    +2
    Others viewed Jesus as God

    1 Timothy 3:16 -Paul Said Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
    "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

    John 20:28 -Thomas called Jesus God.
    "And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."

    Colosians 2:8,9 -Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
    "Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily ."

    Titus 2:13 -Paul said Jesus was God.
    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior, Jesus Christ ."

    Luke 8:39 -After Jesus healed a demon possess man, Jesus said:
    "Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."

    Rom. 14:10b -12 -Paul uses the words Jesus and God interchangeably.
    "For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God ."

    Phil. 2:5b, 6 -Paul said Jesus was God.
    "Jesus Christ, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
     
  7. websitejack

    websitejack Having done all ~ Stand

    48
    +2
    The people around Jesus understood Jesus was claiming to be God

    John 10:33 -The Jews felt Jesus was claiming to be God.
    "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."

    John 5:18 -The Jews felt Jesus was making himself equal with God.
    "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God ."
     
  8. websitejack

    websitejack Having done all ~ Stand

    48
    +2
    Jesus claimed to be God

    John 10:30 - Jesus said He was part of God. He said, "I and my Father are one."

    Exodus 3:14 -God identifies Himself to Moses by calling himself "I AM ." Twice Jesus refers to Himself as the "I AM ." Those around him knew exactly what he was saying and they were greatly offended.
    "Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say you, before Abraham was, I am . Then they took up stones to cast at him …" (John 8:58, 59a)

    "Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them I am he. As soon as he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground." (John 18:4b, 5, 6)

    [Note: In the Bible, the word "he" is in italic. Whenever a word was not in the original Greek or Hebrew, but was put in for clarity, the King James translators put the word in italic. This was done so there would be no misunderstanding about what was and was not part of the original text]

    Revelation 1:8 -18 -Jesus said, he is the Almighty Lord. The following is a vision John had of Jesus. Verses 2, 13, 17,18 identify Jesus as the:
    (v 2) "… testimony of Jesus Christ …"

    (v 8) "I am Alpha and Omega , the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty ."

    (v 11) "Saying I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last …"

    (v 13) "And in the midst of the seven lamp stands, one like the Son of man …"

    (v 17b. 18a) "Fear not; I am the first and the last ; I am he that liveth and was dead…"

    Isaiah 44:6 -In Rev 1:11, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Isa. 44:6 shows that the one who is "first and the last is actually God. "Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the Lord of host: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is not God ."
     
  9. websitejack

    websitejack Having done all ~ Stand

    48
    +2
    The Bible says Jesus is God

    Hebrews 1:8 -God the Father said Jesus was God.
    "Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God , is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom."

    Isaiah 9:6 -Jesus (the Messiah) is called the Mighty God.

    "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God , the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."

    Matthew 1:23 -Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

    "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us ."


    Zechariah 12:10 -God uses the first person (“me”) and the third person (“him”) to describe Himself as the one who will be pierced.
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM , as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    John 1:1 -Jesus (the "Word") is God
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."

    Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
    (v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

    (v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches …"

    Every knee will bow to both God and Jesus. Here are verses talking about every knee bowing to God.
    "Look unto me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God and there is none else. … that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:22,23b)

    Here are verses talking every knee bowing to Jesus.
    "… stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:10b, 11)

    "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Philippians 2:10a,11a)

    John 5:23 -We have to honor Jesus that same way as God the Father.
    "That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him."

    Both God and Jesus are called our "Savior." Here are verses calling God our savior.
    "… I am He, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord and besides me there is no savior ." (Isaiah 43:10b, 11)

    "… And there is no God else beside me, a just God and Savior ; there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21b)

    Here are verses calling Jesus our savior.
    Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

    "But hath in due time manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God, our Savior ;" (Titus 1:3)

    "Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior , in all things." (Titus 2:10)

    "But after the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man appeared." (Titus 3:4)

    "To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior ." (Titus 1:4)

    "Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior ," (Titus 3:6)
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi Laura!

    What are you not buying?

    1) Acts 11:26 which says that the DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch;

    2) John 8:31 where Jesus said to the Jews who BELIEVED in him: "...if you ABIDE in my word, you are my DISCIPLES indeed";

    3) John 8:40 where Jesus SAID "why do you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH...";

    4) John 17:3 where Jesus PRAYED to the Father (verse 1): "...And this is ETERNAL LIFE, thata they may know YOU the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent."

    5) John 3:18 where Jesus says that he who BELIEVES in him is NOT condemned; but he who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already."

    You still BELIEVE Trinitarians are Christians?

    Ed


     
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi Job!

    The WORD in John 1:1 is "logos" in Greek and is defined by Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary as "God's WISDOM manifest in the creation, government and redemption of the world."

    God's WISDOM regarding the "redemption of the world" is manifest in His PLAN recorded in Ephesians 1:3-14 of the Today's English Version of the Bible. This PLAN which involved Jesus (Gen. 3:15; Gen. 17:7; Isaiah 7:14; 1 Peter 1:20) was in the beginning WITH God because this PLAN was conceived by God BEFORE the creation of the world and WAS God because the PLAN is CERTAIN of implementation. John 1:1 is a figure of speech.

    John 1:14 is apostle John's figurative description of the FULFILLMENT of God's PLAN which is the manifestation of God's WISDOM or "logos."

    John 1:2-13 and 15-18 are apostle John's description of Jesus, the flesh that the WORD turned into.

    Ed
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi Lanakila!

    Aren't you actually saying that I have presented way too many scriptures to demolish the TWO verses you picked to support your FALSE belief that Jesus is God?

    Why can't you be HUMBLE and HONEST my friend and ACCEPT the word of TRUTH that CAME out of Jesus' lips - that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

    Ed
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by OldShepherd  

    First, I want to remind you that I asked you several questions about the Iglesia Ni Christi cult that you belong to and you never answered. Here are links for others who are interested in what this cult, which was founded in 1913, by Felix Manalo, teaches.

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As always, you are NOT telling the TRUTH. How many times must I answer your questions for you to understand? And because you FAIL to understand, you accuse me of evading your questions. Why don't you post them again so that our NEW readers may know how NARROW-minded you are!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Second, you have not presented one piece of proof or evidence that anything you have said is true. You might blindly follow the teachings of manalo and his son, who now runs the organization, but most thinking, reasoning, discerning, Christians want proof and evidence before they will believe the uneducated ramblings of a Pinoy Jim Jones or David Koresh.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Isn't John 8:40 TRUE Oldshepherd? Jesus says, "...ME, a MAN..." Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN and cites John 8:40 as his source. Did Bro. Manalo TEACH a lie? NO! Aren't you FALSELY accusing Bro. Manalo of teaching a lie? You bet you are!

    Isn't John 17:3 true Oldshepherd? Jesus says "...that they may know YOU (referring to the FATHER), the ONLY true God..." Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that the FATHER is the ONLY true God. Did Bro. Manalo TEACH a lie? NO! Aren't you FALSELY accusing Bro. Manalo of teaching a lie? You bet you are!

    If you are as "educated" as you THINK you are, you would REALIZE that you have just EXPOSED yourself open as the LIAR that you are!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Notice, how Hebrews 1 is correct when it agrees with your doctrine and mistranslated when it does not. Since you are trying to tell us that the O.T. was mistranslated and the disciples used a mistranslation, perhaps you can correctly translate this passage of Hebrew for us.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Again, you are showing our readers the kind of an "educated" man you are. Show our readers where I said that Hebrews 1 and the Old Testament are MISTRANSLATED.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is a quote from a book written in the 19th century by a messianic Jew. Note that throughout history the Jews considered Psalm 45 messianic.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wow! What a wild "educated" guess! So what if the Jews considered Psalm 45 messianic! That does NOT mean that throughout history, the Jews considered Jesus as God.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What are you hiding Oldshepherd? Why didn't you include in here what your reference ACTUALLY thought about verse 6?

    The footnote for Heb. 1:8 indicates that this verse was  lifted from Psalm 45:6. Your reference does NOT show that Psalm 45:6 was indeed rendered as "Thy throne O God."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Again, you are NOT telling the TRUTH. Show our readers where I CLAIMED that Hebrews chap. 1 was falsely translated. One who is "educated" must be careful when discussing important matters such as this.

    Ed
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Please show scripture which teaches that Jesus WAS the WORD of God BEFORE he was born. Also, please show scripture which authorizes apostle John to declare, make known or introduce who God is.

    Then tell me why apostle John wrote in verse 18 that "NO ONE has ever seen God at any time" when in truth and in fact, apostle John SAW Jesus  (whom you think John introduced as God in verse 1) maybe a hundred times?

    Ed
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi Oldshepherd!

    The verses you cited do NOT override what Jesus, our LORD and savior TAUGHT regarding himself and the ONLY true God. These apostles acquired their knowledge from Jesus. FYI, God in the past SPOKE to our fathers by the PROPHETS has in these last days SPOKE to us by His SON (Heb. 1:1-2). God did NOT speak to these apostles. Thus, they do NOT have any authority to CONTRADICT what Jesus TAUGHT.

    Yes, Thomas called Jesus God. Does it mean Thomas was correct?

    Whether Jesus rebuked him or not is not important. The important thing to bear in mind is what Jesus SAID as recorded in John 3:17-18: "For God did not SEND His SON into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. He who BELIEVES in him is NOT condemned; but he who does NOT believe is CONDEMNED already, because he has NOT believed in the namne of the only begotten SON of God."

    Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Is Thomas authorized to ADD to what Jesus TAUGHT? NO! Is Thomas authorized to MODIFY what Jesus TAUGHT? NO! Is Thomas authorized to CHANGE what Jesus TAUGHT? NO!

    Therefore, the only explanation for what Thomas said is that he MISTAKENLY thought Jesus is God.

    Ed
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi wblastyn!

    Are you sure the Jesus of the Bible is God made flesh? Or is that a product of your own interpretation or what your pastor taught you? Can you show scripture which says JUST that?

    The Jesus of the Bible that I know is the one who SAID in John 8:40: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH that I heafrd from God...."

    The SAME Jesus of the Bible that I know is the one who SAID to the FATHER in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT."

    TRUE Christians worship Jesus NOT because he is God but because God COMMANDS angels to worship him (Heb. 1:6) and people to bend their knees at his name to the GLORY of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11).

    FYI, a Christian is one who BELIEVES Jesus and ABIDES in his word (Acts 11:26; John 8:31). One who CONTRADICTS what Jesus TAUGHT is NOT a Christian. He is an ANTICHRIST or one who OPPOSES the doctrines of Christ.

    Ed
     
  17. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi websitejack!

    Granted without admitting that apostles Paul, John, Luke and Thomas viewed Jesus as God, does that mean they are correct? Have you ever stopped to THINK where in the world did they LEARN that Jesus is God?

    Did these apostles TALK to God separately from Jesus?  No way! The Bible teaches that God SPOKE in these last days BY His SON (Heb. 1:1-2).

    Did Jesus TEACH these apostles that he is God? No way either! Jesus TAUGHT them that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus also TAUGHT them that the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John  17:3).

    Have you ever stopped to THINK why apostles Paul and Peter would write that God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3)? Have you ever stopped to THINK why apostle Paul  would write in 1 Cor. 8:6 that for them (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER?

    Have you ever stopped to THINK why Jesus would say in John 20:17 that he is ascending to his Father and OUR Father, to his God and OUR God?

    Ed


     
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hi websitejack!

    Whose side are you on my friend - the Jews or Jesus?  

    In John 10:36, Jesus said "I am the SON of God" and the Jews THOUGHT he was making himself God (John 10:33). Were they correct in accusing Jesus of blasphemy (being a man, he made himself God)? NO! Did Jesus make himself God by saying "I am the SON of God?" NO!

    In John 5:18, Jesus said "God was his Father" and the Jews THOUGHT he was making himself equal to God. Were they correct in accusing Jesus of making himself equal to God by saying that God was his Father? NO! Did Jesus make himself equal to God by saying "God was his Father?" NO!

    Ed
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by websitejack
    The Bible says Jesus is God

    Hebrews 1:8 -God the Father said Jesus was God.
    "
    Isaiah 9:6 -Jesus (the Messiah) is called the Mighty God.

    Heb. 1:8 was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. The correct translation for Psalm 45:6 is: "Thy kingdom which God has given you." This MISTRANSLATED version makes it appear that there are TWO separate and distinct Gods and if you go on to Heb. 1:9, it would appear that there are "fellow-Gods" of the anointed God.

    Matthew 1:23 -Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

    "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us."

    The birth of Jesus (verse 21)  is the fulfillment of verse 23 which is lifted from Isaiah 7:14. The word "Immanuel" which means "God with us" is a description of the end-result of Jesus' mission of salvation. Those who are saved through Jesus will dwell with God and God will DWELL with them (Rev. 21:3)

    Zechariah 12:10 -God uses the first person (“me”) and the third person (“him”) to describe Himself as the one who will be pierced.
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM , as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    This is a blatant attempt to TWIST scripture to make it appear that Jesus is God.  There are other versions of the Bible which are NOT translated this way. God is a SPIRIT  so he CANNOT be pierced and CANNOT die. The prophet Zachariah knew that. 

    John 1:1 -Jesus (the "Word") is God
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."

    Show me where it says that Jesus is the WORD of God.

    Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
    (v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel  to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

    (v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches …"

    Rev. 5:6 shows the LAMB standing in front of the one who sat on the throne and took the scroll from His right hand. The one who sat on the throne is God Almighty (Rev. 4:2; 8,11). In Rev. 5:13, we read the elders worshiping both the one who sat on the throne and the Lamb.

    Every knee will bow to both God and Jesus. Here are verses talking about every knee bowing to God.
    "Look unto me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God and there is none else. … that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:22,23b)

    Here are verses talking every knee bowing to Jesus.
    "… stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:10b, 11)

    "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Philippians 2:10a,11a)

    John 5:23 -We have to honor Jesus that same way as God the Father.
    "That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him."

    Worshiping Jesus does NOT make him God because it was God who COMMANDS that we worship Jesus.

    Both God and Jesus are called our "Savior." Here are verses calling God our savior.
    "… I am He, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord and besides me there is no savior ." (Isaiah 43:10b, 11)

    "… And there is no God else beside me, a just God and Savior ; there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21b)

    Here are verses calling Jesus our savior.
    Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

    "But hath in due time manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God, our Savior ;" (Titus 1:3)

    "Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior , in all things." (Titus 2:10)

    "But after the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man appeared." (Titus 3:4)

    "To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior ." (Titus 1:4)

    "Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior ," (Titus 3:6)

    God MADE Jesus Prince and SAVIOR (Acts 5:31).

    Ed
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
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