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Are Trinitarians Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Originally posted by El Pobre
    What are you hiding Oldshepherd? Why didn't you include in here what your reference ACTUALLY thought about verse 6?
    I am hiding absolutely nothing, I posted a link to my source, so everyone can verify what I say, so this question is a false accusation. If you have any direct evidence that I have misquoted or hidden anything please post it, show what you falsely claim I am hiding.

    The footnote for Heb. 1:8 indicates that this verse was lifted from Psalm 45:6. Your reference does NOT show that Psalm 45:6 was indeed rendered as "Thy throne O God."

    False accusation, I did notsay that it did!

    Previously posted by OS: Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages.

    Again, you are NOT telling the TRUTH. Show our readers where I CLAIMED that Hebrews chap. 1 was falsely translated. One who is "educated" must be careful when discussing important matters such as this.

    Here is the link to your previous post, 24th August 2002 04:54 AM.

    http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=21028&perpage=10&pagenumber=4
    So who is telling the truth and who is making false accusations? I ask my question again, more specifically. Since you claim to that Psalm 45:6 is definitely mistranslated and Isaiah 9:6 is possibly mistranslated or an unfulfilled prophecy, you must have some expertise in the Hebrew language, so please translate the Bible passage I posted, in Hebrew, in my previous post. And since I am convinced that you cannot do it, then post an exegesis of that passage by any Iglesia Ni Christo scholar. By exegesis, I don’t mean someone just saying what they think the Hebrew means but a full locating of all the words, whether they are Pual, Hithpael, etc, perfect or imperfect, etc.

    ”Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father." Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! If we use your criteria then we would have to say that Jesus never went to the bathroom, took a bath, or changed clothes because it is never recorded in the Bible.

    Any Jim Jones or David Koresh can say words and passages in the Bible are mistranslated and give their opinion what they think it means but since you mocked my training and scholarship then I would like to see some real exegesis of the scripture.
     
  2. Didaskalos

    Didaskalos He is Lord Of ALL Supporter

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    There are over 500 plain scriptures that refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as being THREE SEPARATE AND DISTINCT PERSONS, each with His own personal body, soul, and spirit in the sense that all other persons have them. Two and three persons must be understood in all the passages below if the plain language is to be understood as it reads, for first, second, and third personal pronouns are used in the singular and the plural in the same way that we use them in reference to other persons. If two and three persons are referred to in all these passages and they are called God, then we must understand them as referring to this many divine persons, as we do when the same statements are made of two or three persons of the human race. Note the following scriptures:
    Two Persons are Referred to in:
    1. The Pentateuch: Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; 19:24; Ex. 14:19; 23:20-23; 32:34; 33:1-3; Num. 20:16; Deut. 18:15-19.
    2. The historical books: Josh. 5:13-15; Judg. 2:1-5. The term, "the angel of the Lord" means "the angel from the Lord." The Lord is one person and the angel that comes from Him is another person. Both persons are divine, for the angel proves to be God in many of these passages, and certainly the Lord who sends the angel is another divine person. See Lesson Six, VI, for many scriptures where this term is found. Also, "the Spirit of the Lord" means "the Spirit from the Lord." The Lord is one divine person and the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, from the Lord is another divine person (Judg. 3 10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14; 1 Sam. 10:6; 16:13-14; 2 Sam. 23:2; etc.). The same is true of the Spirit of God" which is the Holy Spirit who was the agent of God and spake by the mouths of the prophets since the world began (Acts. 3:21; Heb. 1:1-2; 2 Pet. 1:21).
    3. The poetical books: Ps.. 2:1-12; 8:3-6 with Heb. 2:5-8; 16:8-11; 22:1-31; 34:20; 45:6-7; 68:18; 69:8-9; 89:27; 110:1-5; 118:26; 119:97-104; 132:11, 17; Prov. 30:4.
    4. The prophetical books: Isa. 7:14; 8:18 with Heb. 2:12-13; 9:6-7; 11:1-5; 42:1-7; 49:1-12; 50:4-11; 52:13-15; 53:1-12; 55:4-5; 63:1-10; Jer. 23:5-8; Ezek. 33:15-18; 34:29; Dan. 7:9-14; Hos. 11:1; Mic. 5:1-6; Hab. 2:7; Zech. 6:12-13; 12:10; 13:6, 7; Mal. 3:1-3.
    5. The Gospels: Matt. 1:18-20; 2:6, 15, 22; 5:44-48; 6:1-18; 7:21; 9:38; 10:32-33, 40; 11:10, 25-27; 12:18, 28, 31-32, 50; 14:33; 15:13; 16:27; 17:5; 18:10, 19, 35; 19:17; 20:23; 21:9, 16; 22:21, 42; 23:8-10, 39; 26:29, 39, 42, 44, 53, 63-64; 27:43, 46; Mark 1:2, 8, 12, 24; 2:7; 3:11; 5:7; 8:38; 9:7; 11:25-26; 12: 27; 14:36, 62, 15:34, 39; 16:19; Luke 1:32-33; 2:11-14, 22, 38, 40, 49-52; 3:16; 4:1-14, 18,41; 7:27; 10:21-22; 11:13; 12:5-10, 32; 13:55; 16:13; 19:38; 20:35, 38, 39-44; 22:29; John 1:1-3, 5, 14, 18, 29, 36; 2:16-17; 3:2, 16-17; 4:10; 5:17-45; 6:27-65; 7:16-18, 28-29, 33-39; 8:14-56; 9:3-5, 33; 10:15-18, 25-38; 11:4, 22, 27, 41-42; 12:26-28, 44-50; 13:1-3, 20, 31-32; 4:1-31; 15:1-25; 16:3-32; 17:1-26; 18:11; 20:17-23, 31.
    6. The book of Acts: Acts 1:16; 2:22-39; 3:7-26; 7:59-60; 9:3; 13:17-41; 16:6-34; 17:18-31; 18:5, 24-28; 19:1-7; 22:14; 26:8-9, 18-23; 28:23-31.
    7. The Pauline Epistles: Rom. 1:7-10, 16; 2:16; 3:22-26; 4:24; 5:1-21; 6:3-23; 7:25; 8:29-34; 14:10-12; 15:5-7; 16:20-27; 1 Cor. 1:1-9, 14-30; 3:9-15; 4:1-21; 5:1-13; 8:4-6; 10:4-31; 11:3; 14:2-33; 15:15, 24-28, 57; 2 Cor. 1:1-23; 2:17; 4:2-15, 5:18-21, 8:1-19; 9:7-15; 10:1-14; 11:1-11, 31; 12:1-12, 19-21; 13:4-7; Gal. 1:1-12, 15-24; 2:16-21; 3:13-29; 5:1-6; 6:14-18; Eph. 1:1-2; Phil. 1:26-30; 2:12-16; 3:3, 14; 4:5-23; Col. 1:1-2, 12-28; 2:2-3:17; 4:3-12; 1 Thess. 2:1-18; 3:8-13; 4: 13-18; 2 Thess. 1:1-12; 2:1-12; 3:1-18; 1 Tim. 1:1-2, 11-17; 2:3-7; 5:21; 6:1-17; 2 Tim. 1:1-2; 2:1-26; 3:12-17; 4:1-2, 8-22; Titus 1:1-4, 7-16; 2:1-13; Ph'm. 1-25; Heb. 1:1-14, 2:5-18; 4:4-16; 5:1-14; 6:7-20; 7:1-26; 8:1-13; 9:24; 10:5-9, 19-23; 10:5-9, 19-23; 11:25-26; 12:2-3, 22-24; 13:4-21.
    8. The General Epistles: Jas. 1:1; 2:1-5; 1 Pet. 1:5-9; 2:3-25; 4:1-11; 5:1-14; 2 Pet. 1:1-2, 2:1-4; 1 John 1:1-7; 2:1-2, 22-25; 3:1-3, 8-10; 4:9-10; 5:1, 20-21; 2 John 2; Jude 1, 4.
    9. The Revelation: Rev. 1:1-2;2:7,10-11,16-18,28-29;3:14-16;4:5-8;5:1-11; 6:16-17; 7:9-17; 11:15; 12:10, 14-19; 15:1-4; 17:14-17; 19:1-21; 20:4-6; 21:2-14, 22-23; 22:1-21.
    Three Persons are Referred to in:
    1. The Old Testament: Plural pronouns are used of God (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Ps. 2:3; Isa. 6:8). Elohim, the Heb. word for God in 2,700 places, is a uniplural noun, meaning Gods and is so translated 239 times. See point I, 1, above.
    Two persons called God are often referred to, as seen in points 1, 2, 3, and 4, above. Three persons are clearly referred to in Ps. 45:6-17; Isa. 10:20-12:6; 42:1-7; 48:16; 59:15-21; 61:1-3 with Luke 4:18-21; 63:9-10; Zech. 3:8-9, 12:10-13:1.
    2. The Gospels: Matt. 1:20-25; 3:9-17; 4:1-11; 12:18-21; 6 16-17; 22:42-46; 28:19-20; Mark 1:10-11; 12:35-37; Luke 1:32-35, 67-80; 2:25-35, 38; 3:22; 11:9-13; 24:49; John 1:31-34; 3:34-36; 14:16-21, 23-26; 15:26; 16:7-17; 20:21-23.
    3. The book of Acts: Acts 1:1-8; 2:17-21, 33-39; 4:8-12, 24-31; 5:30-32; 6:1-15; 7:1-53; 7:54-56; 8:5-23, 29-39; 9:5-20; 10:2-48; 11:15-25; 13:2-12, 46-52; 15:7-29; 18:24-28; 20:21-35.
    4. The Pauline Epistles: Rom. 4:1-4; 5:1-5; 8:1-27; 9:1-5; 14:17-18; 15:8-30; 1 Cor. 2:1-15; 3:16-23; 6:9-19; 7:22-24, 40; 12:1-29; 2 Cor. 1:18-23; 3:3-18; 5: 1-10; 6:1-18; 13:14; Gal. 3:1-11; 4:7; 5:16-26; 6:2-8; Eph. 1:3-21; 4:3-32; 5:1-21, 6:6-24; Phil. 1:1-19; 2:1-11; Col. 1:3-8; 1 Thess. 1:1-10; 4:1-18; 5:9-28; 2 Thess. 2:13-17; 1 Tim. 3:15-17; 4:1-10; 2 Tim. 1:6-14; Titus 3:4-7; Heb. 2:1-14; 3:1-12; 6:1-6; 9:6-14; 10:10-18, 26-31.
    5. The General Epistles: 1 Pet. 1:1-4, 10-25; 3:15-22; 4:13-19; 2 Pet. 1:16-21; 1 John 3:23-24; 4:2-3, 12-16; 5:5-11; Jude 20-21.
    6. The Revelation: Rev. 1:4-6, 9-10; 3:1-13, 21-22; 4:1-3; 5:1-10; 11:3-13; 14:12-13; 19:1-10; 22:16-21.
    Thus the whole Bible abundantly proves that there are three separate persons in the Godhead, or in the "one Lord" and "one God" or Deity; that these three are in absolute unity and "are one" as believers are supposed to be (John 17:11, 21-23); and that all three persons have their proper place in the creation and redemption of all things, and to each we owe honor and respect in all our worship and service to the Godhead.
     
  3. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    How come some people just don't want to believe there is a trinity even after all the proof?!?!?! Just call them mistranlations and ignore the other 100 verses that prove there is a trinity. How can they not see there is a problem that they have to that to try that hard to prove their case?
     
  4. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    it's b/c the masoretic text has no trinitarian verses, and ALL the NT verses are later additions put in by the Church to support the trinitarian doctrine arrived at at the Council of Nicaea AD 325. They are all fabrications. ALL of them!They Are all ad hoc interpolations. ALL of them!

    peace and blessings
    assalamu alaikum
    shalom aleykom
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    What proof is there in the scriptures that God is a trinity? Jesus didn't even teach it! Can you show proof that He taught it? You can't even show proof that Paul or any of the other inspired writers in the NT wrote anything or taught it! Those who oppose the trinity don't even have to try that hard to disprove the trinity, the scriptures alone disprove it everytime. The scriptures are emphatically clear that it has always held to the teaching of only one God. Despite the simplicity of this message and the clarity with which the Bible presents it, many who believe in the existence of God have not understood it.
     
  6. Lost

    Lost Official CF Mater Tosser Supporter

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    Quote: "Previously posted by OS: Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages."


    Newbie question: What did OldShepherd mean by OS?   OP=original poster. :confused:

     :idea:  Got it!...OS=OldShepherd 



     
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Hobart, you don't like being brief in your posts ey?  ;)  I realize you listed a multitude of passages of scripture but non of what you posted has anything to do with explaining the trinity or God consisting of three persons!  The scripture is clear about the oneness of God throughout the OT & NT.  The first scriptural principle to be considered, when approaching the matter from a scriptural point of view, is the oneness of God. God is constantly, repeatedly, and emphatically stated to be ONE, never three. There is never a word anywhere in the scripture from beginning to end about such Greek metaphysics as "Three persons in the Godhead" or any such language.

    Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

    I can probably give you a long list of scripture on the oneness of God but I will spare you of that.  You can get out your sword yourself and look them up. 
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    ”What proof is there in the scriptures that God is a trinity?” Answer: 1 John 5:7! And before you even think about arguing that this verse was “inserted”, in the text, in the sixteenth century, by Erasmus, read my very next post.

    1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    The Greek word translated three is treiV and the Greek word translated one is en. treiV - en/ three-one. There are two related English words which express the concept, “three are one”, of 1 John 5:7, triune and trinity.

    Perhaps the favorite argument of Unitarians and “Oneness” is, “The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible!” But neither are many words used by anti-Trinitarians to express their theology. For example, even the words “Unitarian” and “Oneness” are not in the Bible. The words “manifestation”, “office”, “function”, “role” and “attribute”, used to describe the relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and many others not in the Bible.

    Lost Sheep

    I am not ignoring you. But I am having an extremely hard time accessing this forum. You are correct it is the abbreviation of Old Shepherd
     
  9. Lost

    Lost Official CF Mater Tosser Supporter

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    Quote:  Posted by OS:  I am not ignoring you. But I am having an extremely hard time accessing this forum. You are correct it is the abbreviation of Old Shepherd

    No problem!  I am getting very good at figuring out a lot of things for myself lately.  Thank you for your answer. :pink:
     
  10. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    OS, I know, this is the usual trinitarians "silver bullet" that they keep clinging to in order to try and prove their theory that God is 3 in one. Brother, I won't even use the argument about the word "trinity" not being found in scripture! The concept isn't even there!  Let alone the word!  As for the "oneness" of God?  Now, for your silver bullet.... It has been suggested that 1John 5:7 was designed to put to rest the debate concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Yet I think it would be safe to say that this verse would not have needed to be inserted into the Bible by any man if the doctrine were correct, because the bible would teach this doctrine clearly, and surely if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it! But Jesus didn't teach this doctrine, on the contrary he actually taught us that his Father is his God and our God.  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
     
     
  11. Hector Medina

    Hector Medina Questioning Roman Catholic

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    Yes,

    I guess they just have their own wierd way of living the gospel.
    The same goes with Catholics,Mormons,Jehovah's Witnesses,etc......

    ;)

    In Christ,

    -Hector
     
  12. Sky

    Sky Active Member

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    Hector,

    Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians.
     
  13. websitejack

    websitejack Having done all ~ Stand

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    Ed,

    It is because the Father commanded that Jesus be worshipped that reveals his deity!!

    None other than God is to be worshipped, as established by scripture:

    Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me

    Exodus 34:14 -- for you shall not worship any other god , for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God -- (NASB)

    And yet Jesus is CONSTANTLY worshipped AND accepted it.

    Matt. 2:2, 8, 11 Wisemen at Jesus' birth
    Matt. 8:2 - the leper He healed
    Matt. 9:18 - the ruler
    Matt. 14:33 the apostles after He walked on water.
    Matt. 15:25 - Canaanite woman
    Matt. 20:20 - mother of James & John
    Matt. 28:9 - the disciples
    Matt. 28:17 - the apostles
    Luke 24:51-52 - the Apostles at the ascension.
    John 9:38 - the blind man he healed

    If Jesus is a created being, then not only would this be idolaltry, but idolaltry condoned...commanded by...God.

    But again scripture shows that Jesus is not a created being, but the Creator:

    Jn 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made .

    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him .


    Angels are NOT to be worshipped -

    And I, John, saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. (9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it no; for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book. Worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

    Men are NOT to be worshipped -
    Peter refused - Acts 10:25-26
    Paul refused - Acts 14:11-15

    Only God can receive worship. Jesus is worshipped. Jesus is God.

    websitejack
     
  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    I think i asked this question on page one .. who is the Holy Spirit ?
     
  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    "if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it!"

    Please show me where this is stated in the Bible?
     
  16. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) Taken from previous post 

    God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    The epistles always refer to God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that in the Old Testament, the people of Israel called God "God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob."
    Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

    Romans 15:6, "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    2 Corinthians 1:3, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;"

    Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

    1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

    Christ never considering Himself as equal with God:

    Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him (Jesus), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" Revelation 1:6, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

    Revelation 3:12, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

    Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

    Compare Revelation 3:5 with:

    1 Timothy 5:21, "I charge thee before God (#1), and the Lord Jesus Christ (#2), and the elect angels (#3), that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."

    Get the picture OS?  Any questions? Or if you can show me where Jesus teaches the trinity, by all means, be my guest. As you can see, I barely touched the surface! 

     
     

      
     
  17. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

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    Here are a few quotes from some Early Christians. Each comes from at least 150 years before Nicea, and yet each one clearly puts forth that Christ is God. In the case of Ignatius, we have a wonderful witness, as he was ordained by the Apostle Peter, and was a disciple of the Apostle John. His writings give us an unparalleled glimpse into the Apostolic belief.

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  18. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

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    LOL I am grateful for this thread. When I get a little discouraged or maybe just need a little "pick-me-up" I love to pop in here and read a few threads. I usually go away with a smile good for at least a week before it begins to wear off. Some of the thoughts of the non-Christians!!! lololol
     
  19. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Amen.
     
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