Are Trinitarians Christians?

[ReasonableDoubt]

Originally posted by eldermike
2CO 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Well, there's not an ounce of trinitarianism in that quote. Next?

 

[eldermike]

That is all there is in Pauls blessing. Let me put it together for you. What He said was: May God be with you.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by eldermike
That is all there is in Pauls blessing. Let me put it together for you. What He said was: May God be with you.

Mr ElderMike, Paul along with all the other inspired writers including Christ Himself never taught the trinity!  I do not think we need to be a "rocket scientist" or be an "academic theologian" to figure out who Jesus Christ is. If we humble ourselves and seek Him with all of our hearts, we may find the Truth.

cheers

 

 

[eldermike]

I think I posted evidence that Paul did teach the Trinity. Saying I did not post evidence is not looking at evidence, it's ignoring it. Paul used all three persons of One God in His closings. Was Paul teaching three gods?, Of course not. Paul did not question the Divinity of Christ.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by eldermike
I think I posted evidence that Paul did teach the Trinity. Saying I did not post evidence is not looking at evidence, it's ignoring it. Paul used all three persons of One God in His closings. Was Paul teaching three gods?, Of course not. Paul did not question the Divinity of Christ.

Mr ElderMike,  Christ's divinity is not in the trinity. The trinity was unheard of with the apostles, how could Paul and the other inspired writers have taught it?  Let alone Christ even teaching it!  How do you define His divinity? Besides, God is not a person, he is spirit.  A person has flesh and blood, God is not flesh and blood.

FR

 

 

[cougan]

Franklin I'm still not sure what your are saying about Jesus. I just wanted to know if you think Jesus was created and when?

Perhaps the following statement will clarify the words used to talk about the triune nature of God.

The bible teaches that there are 3 separate and distinct persons in the GodHead, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. By BIBLE I mean the ispired word of God inclusive of both Old and New Testaments. By TEACHES I mean to instruct or impart knowledge. By 3 I mean the simple numerical designation. By SEPERATE AND DISTINCT I mean different or distinguishable. By PERSONS I mean self-rational, self-conscious beings having will or volition who may act or be acted upon. By GODHEAD I mean deity, divinity, or divine nature as used in Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20 and Colossians 2:9. By NAMELY, THE FATHER, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT I mean to designate the members of the GodHead or those Characterized by divine nature.

All 3 are refered to as God in the bible possessing the quality or nature of deity. The Father John 6:27 The Son Heb 1:8 The Holy Spirit Acts 5:3-4. The word "God" is a name of the divine nature or quality of being. All 3 are refered to as God (deity, divinity) because all 3 possess the divine nature, the attributes or characteristics of deity. There is but 1 divine nature (God), but there are 3 persons possessing this unified set of infinite qualites.

I hope this helps in defineing certain words that are being used.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by ansarthemystic
Re-read what you wrote...these are CHARACTERISTICS of a PERSON!!!. How is it that these are not characteristics of the G-d who IS a spirit.

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom aleykom

Reread the thread, I was answering a question about the Holy Spirit. And that is what I did I answered that specific question. No one asked me to write a thesis on Christain Theology or discuss the history of the Christian church.

 

[eldermike]

Franklin,

I used the phrase "paul taught" because you used it first (posted below) I am simply trying to find a way to debate you. If you say He didn't teach Trinity, I post an example of Him using the Three Persons of God when simply saying "God be with you". Here is your post:

Mr ElderMike, Paul along with all the other inspired writers including Christ Himself never taught the trinity!

I never said He did until you said He didn't.

Then I said:

I think I posted evidence that Paul did teach the Trinity. Saying I did not post evidence is not looking at evidence, it's ignoring it. Paul used all three persons of One God in His closings. Was Paul teaching three gods?, Of course not. Paul did not question the Divinity of Christ.

Now you are off on Who taught what, because I was simply trying to find a way to communicate with you.

Let me try again.

The reason I wasn't concerned about who taught what or what the Bible teaches on the issue is: The only reason to question the Trinity is if you deny the Divinity of Jesus. This is not about Trinity teachings, it's about Jesus. Jesus said He was God, Trinity issue resolved, "poof" gone, done, finished.

If you beleive Jesus is something other than God then you have to reject the Trinity.

This is not a teaching issue at all. Never has been.

Blessings

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by eldermike
The reason I wasn't concerned about who taught what or what the Bible teaches on the issue is: The only reason to question the Trinity is if you deny the Divinity of Jesus. This is not about Trinity teachings, it's about Jesus. Jesus said He was God, Trinity issue resolved, "poof" gone, done, finished. If you beleive Jesus is something other than God then you have to reject the Trinity. This is not a teaching issue at all. Never has been. 

Mr ElderMike, I am trying to communicate with you too. So let me start by saying that, Jesus never said He was God.  He is the Son of God, nowhere in scripture is He ever defined as God the Son. You might want to review the post I sent to OS previously where I have scripture listed. May I also add that, there is no prophecy that requires Jesus to be "God," nor does his messianic salvation work of atonement require that he be God. Divine titles are given to Jesus because of His exaltation, just like Moses and angels and others are given Divine titles (like "God," "gods") in the Old Testament. I hope this satisfies your requirements for debating.

Previous post:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=334315#post334315



Cheers

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Jesus never said He was God.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

In John 8:58, when asked by the Jews how he has special knowledge of Abraham, since Abraham lived long before Jesus, he replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am" invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God, "I Am" or "Yahweh." His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). Further, in John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and the Father are one."

Those two direct quotes are the strongest, but there are many others as well:


Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God.
Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath."
Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord."
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God.
John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world."
1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - I AM = Yahweh.
John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again.
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one."
John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father".
John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me."
John 13:13 - Jesus says you call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.
John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life."
John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine."
John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.
Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end."

 

[Knight]

Well said brother.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Knight
Well said brother.

Gracias, mi hermano!

 

[eldermike]

Franklin,

Yes it helps in the debate to get to the real issue. The issue of "who is Jesus": the only issue between Christians and Non/Christians.
All non belief comes down to this question: who is Jesus?

If Jesus is God and you deny that Jesus is God, you deny God.
We can post scripture until the Lord comes back and unless you want to know Jesus, and who He really is nothing will change.

All I can do from here is pray for you and I will do that.

Blessings to you

 

[cougan]

Just have a second here but it is quite interesting what Jesus says in.

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do
not believe that I am (He), you will die in your sins."

If you will notice the word He is in italic which means it was added by the translaters. Notice what Jesus is saying here when you take out the added word he. He is saying if you do not believe that I AM (that is to be or self existence) you will die in your sins.

God Bless

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by eldermike
Yes it helps in the debate to get to the real issue. The issue of "who is Jesus": the only issue between Christians and Non/Christians. All non belief comes down to this question: who is Jesus? If Jesus is God and you deny that Jesus is God, you deny God.

Mr ElderMike, Yes, that is the issue, who is Jesus!  So, who do you say He is? Did Peter ever say, Jesus was God?  The demons never even said He was God!  If you deny God's word then you deny God!  I believe what the scripture says who Jesus is. Do you? I believe what the scripture says and subordinate all uninspired creeds written by men to second place!  What does inspiration mean to you mr ElderMike?  The devils even knew who Christ was!  And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. (Lk 4:41)

Peter identifies Christ as who?  "But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"  (Mt 16:16)

  We can post scripture until the Lord comes back and unless you want to know Jesus, and who He really is nothing will change. All I can do from here is pray for you and I will do that.[/B]

 

This is a very interesting part of your quote as to what you say about scripture!  Do you have something against scripture?  This is something trinitarian defenders like yourself have to purposely overlook, scripture itself! When scripture is allowed to interpret itself the trinity is not in it!  It's that simple. I'll be praying for the word of God to be fully revealed to you.

 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Jesus is the Son of God, of course. Jesus is God, as He said, of course.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Jesus is the Son of God, of course.

Yes, He is the Son of God, as stated in scripture.....

Jesus is God, as He said, of course. [/B]

.....and you turn around and contradict yourself by your mis-interpretation of scripture as usual!   

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Note well that this last quotation is Jesus Christ speaking; addressing God in prayer as "the only true God," and speaking of himself as separate from that One True God and sent by Him.

Be sure your beliefs are derived from and founded upon God's Word, not man's speculations. Luke 2:52; John 17:3; 1 Timothy 2:5; Acts 2:22; John 5:30; John 14:28....

Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her [Mary], The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

It was the baby born of Mary that was the Son of God because he was begotten in her by the Spirit of God. These passages deserve long meditation. They are beautiful, refreshing, and a spiritual antidote to the confused, contradictory human philosophizing of the Platonic doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[eldermike]

Franklin,

As nice as I can say this: Every non-beleiver I know says that Jesus is not God. All I can do is witness to them as I am doing to you. When Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life" that was quite a statement for a created being, wouldn't you say? When He said "no one come to the Father except through me" He is blocking all paths or He is the Father, which makes sense? Who could block all paths to God?, only God.

Franklin, this is where I leave this.
Blessings to you in your search.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

If you think millions of Christians misinterpret Jesus when He said...

"The Father and I are one"

...then whatever, I can't communicate with you.

 

[Knight]

The deity of Christ is a core belief that is essential to Christianity. This is the only way to true salvation. Allow me to draw an analogy.

souljah, eldermike, and I are over at souljah's place playing euchre. During the course of the game I knock over one of souljah's lamps smashing it on the floor. I apologize profusely and ask for forgiveness. He forgives me but then asks for $10. Is this true forgiveness? No, because it is conditional on my paying $10. If he said he forgives me and then asks eldermike to pay him $10, is this true forgiveness? No, this is transferrence of debt. If he truly forgives me he does not ask for anything from me in return and pays the cost himself.

God grants us true forgiveness in the person of Jesus Christ. He is the one offended, He is the one who pays, and He is the one who forgives.